Z-pinch Sunspots

[Dancing David]

On the z-pinch and sunspots as examples of z-pinch phenomena.

In other threads much of the electric sun model has been discussed at some lenth and confusion of subject matter. A certain poster has made two claims in seperate threads, one that sunspots are where Birkeland currents enter the sun. And in another that sunspots are an example of possible z-pinch effect and that this provides the energy for the sun. Although the notion that the corona is heated by the z-pinch seems to have some merit I want to address this claim.

I am sure that the temperature of sunspots may become an issue of debate , yet two sources say the following:


http://eo.nso.edu/MrSunspot/answerbook/sunspots.html

Sunspots are darker than the rest of the visible solar surface because they are cooler: Most of the visible surface of the Sun has a temperature of about 9700 F (5400 C), but in a big sunspot the temperature can drop to about 7200 F (4000 C). Sunspots come in sizes between about 1500 miles (2500 km) and about 30,000 miles (50,000 km), so they are much smaller than the Sun itself, which has a diameter of 865,000 miles (1,392,000 km).

http://solar.physics.montana.edu/YPOP/Classroom/Lessons/Sunspots/

The photosphere has a temperature of about 5500 degrees Celsius and a typical sunspot has a temperature about 3900 degrees Celsius.

So if the light given off by the sunspot is an indication of it’s temperature then a sunspot might be considered to be at a temperature ~5700 K,~4100K or ~4300 K


Trying to find a rough estimate of the temperatures needed for a z-pinch scenario to occur I found the following.

http://aps.arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0802/0802.1883.pdf

Some of the earliest attempts to realize controlled nuclear fusion were based on the z-pinch, where a large current is discharged through a column of deuterium-tritium (DT) gas, to compress and heat the DT to the ignition temperature of 10 keV.

But I am not sure how to translate keV to conventional temperature although I know it is a measure of energy.


So here I found another source for possible temperatures for hydrogen fusion to occur.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/coubar.html#c2

Deuterium-deuterium fusion : 40 x 10^7 K

Deuterium-tritium fusion: 4.5 x 10^7 K

In the sun, the proton-proton cycle of fusion is presumed to proceed at a much lower temperature because of the extremely high density and high population of particles.

Interior of the sun, proton cycle: 1.5 x 10^7 K

And so that would appear to me that he temperature for fusion could be:

- 40x10000000 or 400,000,000
- 4.5x10000000 or 45,000,000
- 1.5x 10000000 or 15,000,000

Or at least I am assuming that the numbers are in degrees Kelvin, but 400,000,000 sounds a whole lot higher that the three million usually given for fusion, so it could be they are in keV.

I don’t think they are because then the numbers would go even higher.

So……

If the temperature required at the center of the sun is 1.5x10^7 K and that is because of the density of the material, how are we going to get a z-pinch to fuse at the temperature of ~4000K?

Of course I am sure I missing something here.

 

[Ziggurat]

But I am not sure how to translate keV to conventional temperature although I know it is a measure of energy.

Divide the energy by Boltzmann's constant k_B = 8.6x10^-5 eV/K to get the temperature. In the case of 10 keV, that gives us (10/8.6)x10⁸ K = 116 million deg. K. Of course, these are all only ballpark figures: for a thermally driven process, the rate as a function of temperature is not a step function.

 

[Dancing David]

Thanks,

that is still a whole bunch higher than ~4,000 K.

 

[Zeuzzz]

My personal thoughts on sunspots is that they are areas where the normal outward travelling solar wind inverts, and you get small currents of particles streaming back into to the sun, against the predominant direction. This may explain the temparature minimum, as the particles are entering from the cooler region just above the photosphere, and they would also shield that area from the heat being generated below.

In terms of why sunspots are black, i'm going to pass on that one for now, i have not so far seen a definitve reson for this. Surprising really, any process that changes the electron transitions and the subsequent wavelengths of the light emitted would be a viable one.

 

[Complexity]

My personal thoughts on sunspots is ...

Not of any interest to me whatsoever.

 

[The Man]

The real problem with direct Z-pinched fusion is that the experimental evidence “indicated that magneto-hydrodynamic instabilities prevented the pinched plasma from reaching the required plasma temperatures and densities for fusion in equilibrium”. If those instabilities could not be overcome under controlled laboratory conditions, I find it highly unlikely that conditions would be any more stable or controlled in such a chaotic environment as the surface of the Sun. Z-pinches do work just fine as X-ray sources for indirect-drive Inertial Confinement Fusion. However once again due the extreme controlled conditions require (specifically the symmetry of the incident radiation flux), I find that even indirect-drive Inertial Confinement Fusion from a solar surface Z-pinched plasma is highly unlikely in such a chaotic environment as the surface of the Sun.

http://www.iaea.org/programmes/ripc/physics/fec1998/pdf/ov3_4.pdf

 

[BeAChooser]

A certain poster has made two claims in seperate threads, one that sunspots are where Birkeland currents enter the sun. And in another that sunspots are an example of possible z-pinch effect and that this provides the energy for the sun.

David, once again you misrepresent what I actually said. I'm not certain whether I ever linked something that made the first claim. I suppose it's possible. But I certainly didn't make the second claim. I drew your attention to an image that happens to have a sunspot in it but it also has something else ... an bright many filamented event in the vicinity but not directly over the sunspot. And that might be a z-pinch. I made every effort to get you to look at that something else but apparently your blinders made it impossible for you to see anything but the sunspot.

 

[BeAChooser]

And in another that sunspots are an example of possible z-pinch effect and that this provides the energy for the sun.

Furthermore, I never once claimed that z-pinches provide the energy for the sun. You asked what could produce heavy elements in the electric sun model and I pointed you to z-pinches which appear to reach both the temperatures and densities needed to do that according to current mainstream theory. I never once said or implied that the energy from the sun was coming from z-pinches. So how you managed to get it into the dark matter inside your head that I did ... is puzzling.

 

[robinson]

Sometimes people just make stuff up. It's fun!

















Until somebody points out you just made it up.

 

[Reality Check]

Wikipedia has a good article on sunspots where is is clearly stated that they are only dark in contrast to the surrounding material. A temperature of 4000-4500 K means that they are brighter than an electric arc.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Originally Posted by Zeuzzz
My personal thoughts on sunspots is ...

Not of any interest to me whatsoever.

Well shut up then. Did you really need to post that comment?

I see no derogatory comments aimed at you. Whats your problem, really?

 

[Reality Check]

Hi BeAChooser
The standard solar model states that all of the energy from the Sun is produced by fusion. The model then gives a calculation of the rate of production of neutrinos. Experiments here on Earth have verified that the Sun produces this neutrino flux.
What is the prediction from your model of the neutrino flux and how does it match with the experiment?

 

[Dancing David]

David, once again you misrepresent what I actually said. I'm not certain whether I ever linked something that made the first claim. I suppose it's possible. But I certainly didn't make the second claim. I drew your attention to an image that happens to have a sunspot in it but it also has something else ... an bright many filamented event in the vicinity but not directly over the sunspot. And that might be a z-pinch. I made every effort to get you to look at that something else but apparently your blinders made it impossible for you to see anything but the sunspot.

Roll your eyes, i asked where there was evidence of a z-pinch on the surface of the sun and you posted the picture. Perhaps your opaque answer is too opaque.

Ever the con man, your answer was the picture with no explantion, just as when I posisted that if Birkeland currents were enetering the sun it would effect the corona and you posted a picture of a sunspot. Since you won't explain youself it isn't my blinders but your lack of effort in explanation.

Here is the post with your cryptic answer and lack of explanation:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3481581&postcount=517

But a z-pinch near the solar surface can produce metals and other elements and alter the ratio of hydrogen and helium in the near surface atmosphere. In an electric star, heavy element abundances would not be fixed but would be created in the outer layers by the high-energy discharges. Red giants could simply be stars that once were subject to higher electric current density (producing lots of metals and converting H to He) which are now, for whatever reason, traveling through a region with lower current density.

So where is the evidence that the surface of the sun has the temperature to support a z-pinch BAC?

So where does the energy come from to causes the sun to shine BAC?

Please do answer, tell us that is Birkeland currents or whatever you think it is.

Your lack of explanation is telling, you don't understand your own theories so you fail to explain them. But then perhaps you are better saying less and just not explaining anything.

 

[Dancing David]

Furthermore, I never once claimed that z-pinches provide the energy for the sun. You asked what could produce heavy elements in the electric sun model and I pointed you to z-pinches which appear to reach both the temperatures and densities needed to do that according to current mainstream theory. I never once said or implied that the energy from the sun was coming from z-pinches. So how you managed to get it into the dark matter inside your head that I did ... is puzzling.

Uh huh, so what provides the power that illuminates the sun BAC, perhaps the problem is that you spew so much nonsense you don't remember what you post.

The z-pinch you mentioned in answer to my question was a galactic jet if I recall correctly or was it a supernova?

You can't answer direct questions because you don't understand that which you try to present.

1. What would the field strenth of a magnetic field need to be to move the sun and other stars as per the Perrat model?

2. What provides the energy which power the sun BAC, where is the sun does it occur?

3. How does plasma cosmology explain the general proportions of H, He and Li?

4. How do iron whiskers produce a black body spectrum?

These questions still await your answer as does the sampling error of Arp and statistics of QSOs.

 

[Reality Check]

Hi Dancing David
One thing to remember about z-pinches is that they are another magnetic mechanism to produce conventional fusion. The other methods include gravitation (as in stars) and inertia (as in hydrogen bombs). This means that the temperatures that we are talk about are those of normal fusion, i.e. millions of Kelvin.

BeAChooser
If there are z-pinches occurring anywhere on the surface of the Sun then we have to wonder why astronomers have never noticed these massively hot (million K!) spots. Why have the many satellites observing the Sun not recorded them?
Can you tell us the answer?

 

[Dancing David]

Hi Dancing David
One thing to remember about z-pinches is that they are another magnetic mechanism to produce conventional fusion. The other methods include gravitation (as in stars) and inertia (as in hydrogen bombs). This means that the temperatures that we are talk about are those of normal fusion, i.e. millions of Kelvin.

I am aware of that, I am trying to maintain composure and try to have a discussion with BAC, some days I don't respond as well as I should. Wisely or not I am trying to get BAC to actually discuss issues rather than post and run or spin.

I anticipate a deafening silence or discussion of coronal events and snippetts of pop science and journal articles.

 

[BeAChooser]

Experiments here on Earth have verified that the Sun produces this neutrino flux.

Are you sure? The standard solar model says the nuclear reaction taking place inside the Sun produces electron neutrinos. Although the total neutrino flux may be close to the required level, the number electron neutrinos can only be inferred as being sufficient if they ‘oscillate’ into other types of neutrinos. Seems to me the only way the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) could have determined a change in type with any certainty is by detecting the type of neutrinos at both ends of the pipe running from the sun to the earth. They didn't do that. They detected neutrinos only at the earth's end. When Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) declared that “the SNO detector has the capability to determine whether solar neutrinos are changing their type en route to Earth”, I think they were somewhat dishonest ... or perhaps as Ziggurat likes to say, "sloppy".

Fermilab’s MiniBooNE, a very recent neutrino experiment (albeit not the same kind of neutrinos), stated (http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/04/11/miniboone-neutrino-result-guest-blog-from-heather-ray/ ) concluded "The MiniBooNE neutrino data set agrees with the no neutrino oscillation hypothesis, in the range of reconstructed neutrino energy from 475 MeV to 3 GeV. The probability that MiniBooNE and LSND both are due to two-neutrino oscillations is only 2%.”

And I don't know of any more recent experiment that actually proves neutrinos oscillate. Do you?

 

[sol invictus]

Hi BeAChooser
The standard solar model states that all of the energy from the Sun is produced by fusion. The model then gives a calculation of the rate of production of neutrinos. Experiments here on Earth have verified that the Sun produces this neutrino flux.
What is the prediction from your model of the neutrino flux and how does it match with the experiment?

One of the beautiful things about that is that physicists (way back in 1969) were able to predict that neutrinos oscillate based on an observed deficit in the quantity of solar electron neutrinos. That prediction was treated skeptically for years (people were more inclined to believe there was an error either in the calculations or in the experiment, which is very difficult) until it was experimentally confirmed by several experiments recently, using neutrinos generated by both nuclear reactors and particle accelerators, as well as observations of solar neutrinos that were able to detect more than just electron neutrinos.

Here's a nice description of much of that:

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/articles/bahcall/

 

[Acleron]

Fermilab’s MiniBooNE, a very recent neutrino experiment (albeit not the same kind of neutrinos), stated (http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/04/11/miniboone-neutrino-result-guest-blog-from-heather-ray/ ) concluded "The MiniBooNE neutrino data set agrees with the no neutrino oscillation hypothesis, in the range of reconstructed neutrino energy from 475 MeV to 3 GeV. The probability that MiniBooNE and LSND both are due to two-neutrino oscillations is only 2%.”

And I don't know of any more recent experiment that actually proves neutrinos oscillate. Do you?

Your reference also said

Neutrinos have definitively been observed changing from one type into another,

 

[BeAChooser]

This means that the temperatures that we are talk about are those of normal fusion, i.e. millions of Kelvin.

It might interest you to know that z-pinches have actually achieved temperatures in the billions of Kelvin.

If there are z-pinches occurring anywhere on the surface of the Sun then we have to wonder why astronomers have never noticed these massively hot (million K!) spots. Why have the many satellites observing the Sun not recorded them?

http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/hessi/flares.htm "Overview of Solar Flares ... snip ... A composite spectrum of a large flare is shown in the figure below, where the contributions to the total emission are indicated in the different energy ranges. The longer wavelength or softer X rays from less than 1 keV to several tens of keV are produced by hot plasma with a temperature of at least 10⁷ K (and possibly as high as several times 10⁸ K in some cases)."