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Z-pinch Sunspots

BeAchooser
hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/hessi/flares.htm "Overview of Solar Flares ... snip ... A composite spectrum of a large flare is shown in the figure below, where the contributions to the total emission are indicated in the different energy ranges. The longer wavelength or softer X rays from less than 1 keV to several tens of keV are produced by hot plasma with a temperature of at least 107 K (and possibly as high as several times 108 K in some cases)."
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That article is about flares not z-pinches. Flares of course contain plasmas that can have very high temperatures but they have nothing to do with z-pinches. The question I asked is about z-pinches. Why have they have not been observed if they are as energenic as the laboratory experiments you quote suggest?
In addition do you have a calculation of how many z-pinches it would take to produce the observed neutrino flux? My impression is that there would have to be on the order of millions per second but please prove me wrong if you can.

Forget about the question of neutrino oscillations. Just tell us how your model produces neutrinos and whether the predicted flux matches the observed result. If oscillations exist then we just multiply the number of observed neutrinos by 3. If they do not then we just accept the number seen. In either case I would be interested if you can provide a prediction that is even an order of magnitude of the observed result.
 
Wikipedia have a good article on neutrino oscillation for those who are interested.
BeAChooser
Note that the previously posted URL for Super-Kamiokande contains their neutrino oscillation data only in PostScript format but their original July 3 1998 paper to Physical Review Letters is at www-sk. icrr. u-tokyo.ac.jp/doc/sk/pub/nuosc98.submitted.pdf.
Also the MiniBooNE analysis is still ongoing but there is a paper published that states:
The MiniBooNE Collaboration reports first results of a search for $\nu_e$ appearance in a $\nu_\mu$ beam. With two largely independent analyses, we observe no significant excess of events above background for reconstructed neutrino energies above 475 MeV. The data are consistent with no oscillations within a two neutrino appearance-only oscillation model.
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In other words there was no evidence for muon neutrino to electron neutrino oscillations in the LSND region, refuting a simple 2-neutrino oscillation interpretation of the LSND results. This does not refute a more complex neutrino oscillation interpretation of the LSND results.
The Sudbury Neutrino Observatory did not assume neutrino oscillations. Their results demonstrated neutrino oscillations. Read their first results paper at www .sno .phy .queensu.ca/sno/first_results/sno_first_results.pdf.
 
BeAChooser said:
Super-Kamiokande

I see nothing at that site stating they proved neutrinos oscillate.

Sudbury

Sudbury just ASSUMED they oscillate, like I said. They didn't prove it.

Kamland

Kamland's results are very controversial and the more recent experiment I linked above did NOT confirm their result.
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All the results are explainable by neutrino conversion. The miniBoone results do not deny conversion.
 
BeAChooser said:
It might interest you to know that z-pinches have actually achieved temperatures in the billions of Kelvin.



http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/hessi/flares.htm "Overview of Solar Flares ... snip ... A composite spectrum of a large flare is shown in the figure below, where the contributions to the total emission are indicated in the different energy ranges. The longer wavelength or softer X rays from less than 1 keV to several tens of keV are produced by hot plasma with a temperature of at least 107 K (and possibly as high as several times 108 K in some cases)."
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Okay, so where does the energy that powers the sun come from BAC, it is what?

You have elucidated so many different things and now I am asking you:

Where does the energy that powers the sun come from, what rough proportions if it is a mix?

The electric sun has been presented by you, were you just rattling chanins?
 
Reality Check said:
That article is about flares not z-pinches. Flares of course contain plasmas that can have very high temperatures but they have nothing to do with z-pinches.
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You sure?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1976SoPh...49...95V "Solar flares and plasma instabilities - Observations, mechanisms and experiments,
Authors: van Hoven, G., Journal: Solar Physics, vol. 49, July 1976 ... snip ... Several models have been suggested for the configuration and initial instability involved in a large or sunspot flare. ... snip ... On the right in this figure is shown the model of Alfven and Carlqvist (1967) in which a pre-existing current filament is somehow pinched at one point. They propose a new charge-separation instability driven by the resulting large super-thermal electron drift, which causes a substantial resistivity increase and interruption of the current. The inductive energy of the entire circuit is then dumped at this point. ... snip ... Let us now turn our attention to several laboratory experiments which have attempted to reproduce the theoretical predictions of these last two sections and, therefore, to model a solar flare. ... snip ... This is the double-inverse-pinch experiment, in which large currents are pulsed in parallel through two insulated rods. ... snip ... A similar experiment is that of Dailey, Davis and Lovberg, (1972); Davis and Dailey, 1973), shown in Figure 12. The flat annular pinch is produced by an inductive discharge in the background neutral hydrogen gas ... snip ... Figure 13 is an example of a more conventional plasma experiment, the annular, or hard-core, Z-pinch of Anderson and Kunkel (1969)."

Notice that every one of the experiments mentioned includes a pinch, even when they are claiming that magnetic reconnection is occuring.

Here are some later references that seem to mention pinches as possible explanations for flares:

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6878842 "Phenomenological model of solar flares, 1978, Astrophys. J. ; Vol/Issue: 221:3, ... snip ... imply that the flare process is a near quasi-static and quasi-thermal steady-state dissipative flux annihilation of the parallel current density associated with a helical twisted flux tube. Classical thermal conductivity along the lines of force and the tangled-flux surface model of controlled-fusion B/sub z/ pinch experiments lead to a ``buffered`` steady-state electron temperature < or =2 x 107 K, the almost universally observed thermal X-ray temperature."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/kt40937w26383v30/ "The linear Z pinch and the stellar flare phenomenon, V. S. Airapetyan and A. G. Nikogosyan, 1988"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n176h043j83m8q17/ " Pinch mechanism of energy release of stellar flares, V. S. Airapetyan, V. V. Vikhrev, V. V. Ivanov and G. A. Rozanova, 1990"

And here's a really current source ... from Sandia Labs, no less.

http://www.physlink.com/News/060312SandiaZ.cfm "Sandia’s Z machine has produced plasmas that exceed temperatures of 2 billion degrees Kelvin — hotter than the interiors of stars. The unexpectedly hot output, if its cause were understood and harnessed, could eventually mean that smaller, less costly nuclear fusion plants would produce the same amount of energy as larger plants. The phenomena also may explain how astrophysical entities like solar flares maintain their extreme temperatures."
 
Now how exactly did they do that measuring only the neutrino flux here on earth? Care to explain that?
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It is simple - just read the links. Basically detectors typically burried in mines to eliminate background radiation.
Are you saying that every solar flare is a z-pinch? The articles you quote state that solar flares MAY BE caused by or contain z-pinches.

Are you going to answer my original question? "Just tell us how your model produces neutrinos and whether the predicted flux matches the observed result"
 
Reality Check said:
Quote:
Now how exactly did they do that measuring only the neutrino flux here on earth? Care to explain that?

It is simple - just read the links. Basically detectors typically burried in mines to eliminate background radiation.
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You misunderstand. I'm not asking whether they successfully detected the existence of neutrinos or how they did that. I'm asking how they could tell from a neutrino measurement made only on earth that some neutrinos oscillated between the sun and here ... given that there was no detector anywhere else but here on earth.

Reality Check said:
The articles you quote state that solar flares MAY BE caused by or contain z-pinches.
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Well isn't that what you were doubting when you told us there was no connection between z-pinches and solar flares? :)
 
Reality Check said:
Wikipedia has a good article on sunspots where is is clearly stated that they are only dark in contrast to the surrounding material. A temperature of 4000-4500 K means that they are brighter than an electric arc.
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Which is how it is possible to project a partially black image onto a white screen in a partially illuminated room. Dark spot projectors are still in development :)
 
I'm asking how they could tell from a neutrino measurement made only on earth that some neutrinos oscillated between the sun and here ... given that there was no detector anywhere else but here on earth.
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Read the link. Basically they detected the various types of neutrinos.

So you agreee with me that the papers merely suggest a connection between z-pinches and solar flares? That they do not prove a connection between pinches and solar flares?
 
BeAChooser
Another point: If z-pinches are the source of all of the solar neutrinos and z-pinches are caused only by solar flares then we would expect the neutrino flux to vary a lot, i.e. from zero when there are no flares to a high value when there are flares. Since solar flares occur several times a day and the neutrino detection experiments run for years contuniously collecting data then the change in flux would be detected. The neutrino flux would also change during the sun-spot cycle if z-pinches are associated with sun spots and would again be detected by the experiments. This variation would be Nobel Prize winning material but has not been reported.
 
FYI, Miniboone ruled out the results of the LSND experiment. That's as expected, because the LSND results were incompatible with all the other experiment done on neutrino oscillations (which agree with each other). Miniboone did NOT rule out neutrino oscillations in the range where they should be according to everybody but LSND - it has nothing to say about them.

You can see that on this plot - the expected range for delta m^2 is well below the exclusion region (which is above and to the right of the sold line).

limitdata_stacked.png
 
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Reality Check said:
Read the link. Basically they detected the various types of neutrinos.
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That report is a little tough to read but they do appear to have reasonably inferred from the measurements that there are other flavored neutrinos in an amount that matches predictions. This is an easier to read source: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...CC+ES+SNO+neutrinos&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=26&gl=us . Ok, I'm convinced that the sun might be mostly nuclear powered.

That still leaves the question of what role electric current plays in the behavior of the sun and throughout the solar system. The role that pinches, birkeland currents, and double layers play. And it's still possible that some percentage of those neutrinos derive from those electric phenomena (since those neutrinos would presumable also oscillate from the moment of creation). I wonder ... has there been any thought to building a neutrino *camera* with enough resolution to tell where the neutrinos are actually coming from in the sun? Is it a point source near the core, or sources possible scattered throughout the body or near the surface?
 
Reality Check said:
The neutrino flux would also change during the sun-spot cycle if z-pinches are associated with sun spots and would again be detected by the experiments. This variation would be Nobel Prize winning material but has not been reported.
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Actually it has. And may still be an open issue.

http://www.maths.qmul.ac.uk/~lms/research/neutrino.html

"Neutrinos and Sunspots: Any Correlation?

The Homestake experiment has been running for over two solar activity cycles (1 activity cycle = 11 years approximately) and it has been noticed that the neutrino fluxes are not constant. Many researchers have tried to link solar surface activity with neutrino fluxes and, depending upon whether you believe their statistical arguments, have succeeded. It has been claimed that the neutrino flux is correlated to solar radius and solar wind mass flux; and anti-correlated to line-of-sight magnetic flux, p-mode frequencies, and (you guessed it) sunspots. (If two quantities are correlated, then they increase and decrease together. If two quantities are anti-correlated, then when one increases, the other decreases, and vice versa.)

Many of these parameters are (anti-) correlated with each other and are internally consistent. The solar activity cycle is usually defined by sunspot numbers but sunspots are related to magnetic activity in the Sun. Many of these other parameters are also directly affected by magnetism. If these correlations really exist, then it would seem that neutrinos are reacting with the magnetic fields in the heliosphere and magnetosphere. Thus, from this evidence, the solution to the solar neutrino problem is a physical one.

Another possibility, rarely discussed, is that the solar neutrino flux is actually constant and it is the cosmic ray background that is varying. Cosmic rays are more likely to get through to the Earth during periods of low solar activity. Therefore, neutrinos generated in the Earth's atmosphere by cosmic rays will increase in number during these times. If this cosmic background flux is not correctly subtracted from the total detections, then it will appear that the solar flux is indeed varying with the solar cycle.
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And note that EU theorists say their theory would predict an anti-correlation between sunspot activity and neutrino flux.
 
BeAChooser said:
That report is a little tough to read but they do appear to have reasonably inferred from the measurements that there are other flavored neutrinos in an amount that matches predictions. ... Ok, I'm convinced that the sun might be mostly nuclear powered.

That still leaves the question of what role electric current plays in the behavior of the sun and throughout the solar system. The role that pinches, birkeland currents, and double layers play. And it's still possible that some percentage of those neutrinos derive from those electric phenomena (since those neutrinos would presumable also oscillate from the moment of creation). I wonder ... has there been any thought to building a neutrino *camera* with enough resolution to tell where the neutrinos are actually coming from in the sun? Is it a point source near the core, or sources possible scattered throughout the body or near the surface?
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The sun is entirely fusion powered since the measured neutrino flux is that predicted by the model of a fusion powered sun. We know how much energy the sun emits. We calculate the amount of fusion that produces this amount of energy. This fusion produces a neutrino flux and we measure that flux.

The role of electric current in the sun is minor. The role that pinches, birkeland currents, and double layers play are minor.

It is impossible for neutrinos to be derived from "electric phenomena". They are due to nuclear interactions not electrical ones.

There is little possibility of a neutrino "camera" since they do not interact enough with matter to be brought to a focus.
 
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