NORAD Help:

[jproudj]

I'm explaining the NORAD response to somebody on another forum, and they posted this as an attempted rebuttal. I think it's from Ruppert.

When a transponder is turned off, several things happen to civilian (FAA) radar screens that do not affect military radar. First, a small identifying symbol on the blip on the controller?s radar screen goes out. Second, although the civilian ATC still has the ability to track the aircraft in two dimensions, he or she is no longer able to pinpoint its altitude. Third, as reported in an on-the-record statement by a veteran pilot (and confirmed by at least a dozen others), when an aircraft under ATC control goes silent, the blip for that aircraft is instantaneously inserted in a conspicuous manner on the screens of every other ATC in the region. Everybody sees it.

Each controller has a wedge-shaped sector that he is responsible for. His airspace is also bounded by altitude limits. Commercial flights, referred to as heavies, are always under positive control.
They must constantly be in communication with the controllers in order to maintain legal separation. If one of these heavies loses its transponder, it causes instant problems for more than one controller since altitude information is lost. The controllers still have a skin paint, or passive echo from the airframe, but the blip now shows up on all consoles for that sector, not just the original one that was handling the altitude range of the flight. If that same flight loses communication with the controllers as well, the controller workload takes another giant step upward. Keep in mind that this is in an area that is normally stretched to the breaking point with controller overload. This flight is now a hazard to air navigation, and the controllers' primary function of separating the planes is in jeopardy. The procedure for lost communication emergencies is simple: follow your last clearance. If the flight under discussion follows it last clearance, the controllers can predict where it will go and can still keep other flights out of harm's way. If in addition to losing communication and transponder the flight starts to deviate from its last clearance, the whole system is in an emergency condition. Alarms all over the country would be going off.

Is this just wrong? When the fighters from Otis were scrambled, they didn't have a target, this guy seems to think that they should have done. I can't find any evidence to support what he says. I can only see that it is relevant for arguing that the fighters should have had a target when they were scrambled.

I have used the primary and secondary radar systems quote from 911myths, which drop out at some points, to illustrate some of this.

 

[slyjoe]

I think forum member CheapShot can answer all this. This is also the first time I've heard commercial flights referred to as "heavies". I thought heavies were only really big airliners, like 747.

 

[CFLarsen]

Why would they have had to have a target at the time of scramble?

They are scrambled because the manure has hit the ventilator, but just what is going on is not altogether clear. It makes sense to get them up there ASAP and await orders.

I really don't see any need for a massive conspiracy. In fact, if there was a conspiracy, it would make more sense not to scramble.

 

[jproudj]

Ok, I had searched and couldn't find much specific to the radar coverage, but I just found a good thread by gumboot on NORAD, it might be enough for me.

 

[Reheat]

I'm explaining the NORAD response to somebody on another forum, and they posted this as an attempted rebuttal. I think it's from Ruppert.

Gumboot has documented most of this information, but I'll provide some simple answers in areas he might not have addressed.

A "Heavy" Aircraft in FAA terminology is one capable of gross Take Off Weight of more than 255,000 #. It's actual weight doesn't matter only the capability. The reason is that aircraft in that weight category require increased separation from other aircraft which might be influenced by the Wake Turbulence from aircraft of that weight.

NORAD Fighters can, in fact, launch without a target, however, it is general policy that they will have a target prior to launch. This is prudent in that fuel is limited so it makes good sense in most cases. However, if you recall the Langley Fighters were launched without a specific target, so it's no a hard and fast requirement.

Your correspondent is exaggerating the response to loss of communication. Aircraft are flagged, but it is not an emergency unless it is extended and not temporary. It doesn't matter if they are heavy, medium, light or fast, it's still a problem for ATC.

I'm going to leave rest of the radar stuff to Cheap Shot as he is current and he also would know the difference between pre-9/11 and post 9/11 procedures.

 

[gumboot]

Is this just wrong? When the fighters from Otis were scrambled, they didn't have a target, this guy seems to think that they should have done. I can't find any evidence to support what he says. I can only see that it is relevant for arguing that the fighters should have had a target when they were scrambled.

There's a couple of factors left out here.

Primary Radar coverage (which is what he's talking about) is on the FAA side of things. It's not quite as simple as he thinks - full primary coverage is turned on by manually flicking a switch on the console, it's not something that happened automatically (at least not prior to 9/11).

In Class A controlled airspace if the radar data processor (the computer that decides what radar data to display on a particular screen) loses a secondary return (from the transponder) it will drop the primary as well.

The controller can bring the primary back up by turning on their full primary coverage.

On 9/11 three flights turned off their transponders - UA175 didn't turn the transponder off - the code was just changed.

AA11 and UA93 were immediately picked up by controllers on primary and continued to be track. AA77 went missing in an area that didn't have primary radar coverage which is why it was lost.

Now the FAA can continue to track the flight on primary until such point as it drops below radar coverage. Radars don't see right to the deck and FAA radars filter out low altitude radar returns because at low altitude you get what's called "ground clutter" which is unwanted radar returns off things in close proximity to the ground such as trees, buildings, birds, insects, and so on.

AA11 dropped below radar coverage at about 0842. Up until that point the FAA knew where AA11 was.

This is only half the solution though - NORAD need to know where the aircraft is.

NORAD get their radar feeds from a series of long range radar sites around the perimeter of the USA that form what's called the Joint Surveillance System (JSS). The FAA use these radars too.

However while the FAA filters out unwanted ground clutter, NORAD actually enhances sensitivity. They're looking outward over the ocean (where there's very little surface clutter) and they're on the look out for low level radar-avoiding enemy aircraft. So they need to be able to see anything.

The problem is that it makes their coverage over the USA virtually useless because it's packed with ground clutter. As a result NORAD couldn't find AA11 on their radar scopes. For this reason the fighters from Otis were directed to a coordinate north of New York which was at the time the last known position for AA11. The idea was they would simply run down every radar track within a radius of that point using their own inboard radars, and by a process of elimination locate AA11.

All of this is of course academic because by the time the Otis fighters were airborne AA11 didn't exist any more.

Hope that helps.

 

[gumboot]

ETA.

Important point to add, I think he's getting wires crossed here. Post 9/11 the FAA initiated some pretty comprehensive system overhauls, in particular the way in which incidents of interest are reported through the FAA.

When anything occurs now the system automatically notifies surrounding ARTCCs and the national command centre, and the flight is flagged and tracked by the system. These are of course all measures that were put in place after 9/11 and because of 9/11. They were not in place on the day.

(Incidentally this monitoring is continuing to upgrade - Raytheon has been asked by the FAA to develop a computer system that monitors the entire air traffic network and calculates the safest route for aircraft to take in the event of an emergency)

 

[Swing Dangler]

There's a couple of factors left out here.

Primary Radar coverage (which is what he's talking about) is on the FAA side of things. It's not quite as simple as he thinks - full primary coverage is turned on by manually flicking a switch on the console, it's not something that happened automatically (at least not prior to 9/11).

In Class A controlled airspace if the radar data processor (the computer that decides what radar data to display on a particular screen) loses a secondary return (from the transponder) it will drop the primary as well.

The controller can bring the primary back up by turning on their full primary coverage.

On 9/11 three flights turned off their transponders - UA175 didn't turn the transponder off - the code was just changed.

AA11 and UA93 were immediately picked up by controllers on primary and continued to be track. AA77 went missing in an area that didn't have primary radar coverage which is why it was lost.

Now the FAA can continue to track the flight on primary until such point as it drops below radar coverage. Radars don't see right to the deck and FAA radars filter out low altitude radar returns because at low altitude you get what's called "ground clutter" which is unwanted radar returns off things in close proximity to the ground such as trees, buildings, birds, insects, and so on.

AA11 dropped below radar coverage at about 0842. Up until that point the FAA knew where AA11 was.

This is only half the solution though - NORAD need to know where the aircraft is.

NORAD get their radar feeds from a series of long range radar sites around the perimeter of the USA that form what's called the Joint Surveillance System (JSS). The FAA use these radars too.

However while the FAA filters out unwanted ground clutter, NORAD actually enhances sensitivity. They're looking outward over the ocean (where there's very little surface clutter) and they're on the look out for low level radar-avoiding enemy aircraft. So they need to be able to see anything.

The problem is that it makes their coverage over the USA virtually useless because it's packed with ground clutter. As a result NORAD couldn't find AA11 on their radar scopes. For this reason the fighters from Otis were directed to a coordinate north of New York which was at the time the last known position for AA11. The idea was they would simply run down every radar track within a radius of that point using their own inboard radars, and by a process of elimination locate AA11.

All of this is of course academic because by the time the Otis fighters were airborne AA11 didn't exist any more.

Hope that helps.

Please stop promoting falsehoods and contradicting yourself.
1. NORAD is responsible for the protection of air space over North America, therefore they will be looking over the continental U.S. as well as over the coastal areas.

They're looking outward over the ocean (where there's very little surface clutter) and they're on the look out for low level radar-avoiding enemy aircraft. So they need to be able to see anything.

Your contradiction is noted. They looking outward over the ocean but they need to be able to see anything. They need to see anything over the continental U.S. as well as inbound aircraft from the coastal areas.

Do you think the Soviets were aware that NORAD's radar was useless due to ground clutter?

 

[CFLarsen]

Please stop promoting falsehoods and contradicting yourself.
1. NORAD is responsible for the protection of air space over North America, therefore they will be looking over the continental U.S. as well as over the coastal areas.

They are now, yes. But they weren't responsible for the protection of air space over North American before 9-11.

 

[funk de fino]

Please stop promoting falsehoods and contradicting yourself.
1. NORAD is responsible for the protection of air space over North America, therefore they will be looking over the continental U.S. as well as over the coastal areas.

A component of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), the Continental NORAD Region (CONR) provides airspace surveillance and control and directs air sovereignty activities for the continental United States (CONUS).

Since Sept. 11, 2001, CONR has been the lead agency for Operation Noble Eagle, an ongoing mission to protect the continental United States from further airborne aggression from inside and outside of U.S. borders.

Where were they looking for threats prior to 911 Swing?

Your contradiction is noted. They looking outward over the ocean but they need to be able to see anything. They need to see anything over the continental U.S. as well as inbound aircraft from the coastal areas.

Do you think the Soviets were aware that NORAD's radar was useless due to ground clutter?

You really do not make a decent, understandable, argument do you? You understand nothing about radar and aircraft do you?

 

[Swing Dangler]

They are now, yes. But they weren't responsible for the protection of air space over North American before 9-11.

This is wrong. See the GAO dated 5/03/94.

THE CONTINENTAL AIR DEFENSE
MISSION'S TRANSITION TO THE
POST-COLD WAR ENVIRONMENT

The protection of continental skies is the responsibility of the
North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), which is comprised
of U.S. and Canadian air forces. NORAD's mission of continental
protection involves controlling sovereign airspace, assessing and
warning of enemy air or missile attack, and intercepting or engaging
such threats.
NORAD defines air sovereignty as providing surveillance and control
of the territorial airspace, which includes:

intercepting and destroying uncontrollable air objects;

tracking hijacked aircraft;

assisting aircraft in distress;

escorting Communist civil aircraft; and

intercepting suspect aircraft, including counterdrug operations and
peacetime military intercepts.

Source: Continental Air Defense: A Dedicated Force Is No Longer Needed (Letter
Report, 05/03/94, GAO/NSIAD-94-76).

No where in the report is NORAD's protection limited to "outside" the United States. You have been listening to debunkers for too long. I hope this helps your understanding of NORAD's mission.

 

[Dave Rogers]

1. NORAD is responsible for the protection of air space over North America, therefore they will be looking over the continental U.S. as well as over the coastal areas.

Whether or not your premise is correct, your conclusion doesn't follow. In the real world, budget constraints and political considerations frequently result in an organisation having specific responsibilities, but not the resources to discharge those responsibilities as fully as might ideally be hoped. You personally might think it advisable that protection of air space over North America would require full radar coverage of that air space, but records show that, prior to 9-11, NORAD chose to protect air space over North America by preventing threats from entering that airspace.

Dave

 

[Travis]

Also there was an assumption that the radar coverage provided by civilian ATC would be sufficient over domestic airspace. The idea that a sophisticated jet plane over CONUS would be trying to avoid radar detection didn't seem likely prior to 9-11.

 

[Shalamar]

I would also think that while, yes, NORAD has been responsible for controlling domestic airspace in the US and Canada, their eyes were looking outwards to spot threats that would violate said airspace.

The odds of someone launching air strikes or ballistic missiles towards North America from North America were likely considered very very remote.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Do you think the Soviets were aware that NORAD's radar was useless due to ground clutter?

actually most people know radar is useless near the ground, whether they realize thats the actual reason or not, perhaps youve heard the expression "fly in under your radar"

but anyway, if some soviet bombers decided to attack the US where they be coming from? probably not dulles or boston logan, right?

as was pointed out by dave rogers NORAD protected US airspace with the assumption that any threats would originate outside that airspace

 

[CurtC]

Your contradiction is noted. They looking outward over the ocean but they need to be able to see anything. They need to see anything over the continental U.S. as well as inbound aircraft from the coastal areas.

Do you think the Soviets were aware that NORAD's radar was useless due to ground clutter?

With such horrible reading comprehension skills, it's no wonder you're a Troother.

They looked outward over the horizon. But they didn't want their radar to be limited to only aircraft with transponders, so they use primary returns. Fortunately, ground clutter is much less of an issue over the ocean.

Every skeptic here understood that. I wonder why you didn't. Oh wait - you're a Troother!

 

[CFLarsen]

This is wrong. See the GAO dated 5/03/94.
Source: Continental Air Defense: A Dedicated Force Is No Longer Needed (Letter
Report, 05/03/94, GAO/NSIAD-94-76).

No where in the report is NORAD's protection limited to "outside" the United States. You have been listening to debunkers for too long. I hope this helps your understanding of NORAD's mission.

You can't even understand your own source. Before 9/11, they were looking for enemy air or missile attack. That comes from outside the US. They weren't looking for domestic commercial hijacked airplanes.

I agree with others: It is no wonder you're a trooter.

 

[Swing Dangler]

You can't even understand your own source. Before 9/11, they were looking for enemy air or missile attack. That comes from outside the US. They weren't looking for domestic commercial hijacked airplanes.
I agree with others: It is no wonder you're a trooter.

Why did you selectively ignore the rest of the information?

The protection of continental skies is the responsibility of the
North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), which is comprised
of U.S. and Canadian air forces. NORAD's mission of continental
protection involves controlling sovereign airspace, assessing and
warning of enemy air or missile attack, and intercepting or engaging
such threats.
NORAD defines air sovereignty as providing surveillance and control
of the territorial airspace, which includes:

intercepting and destroying uncontrollable air objects;

tracking hijacked aircraft;

assisting aircraft in distress;

escorting Communist civil aircraft; and

intercepting suspect aircraft, including counterdrug operations and
peacetime military intercepts.

You state they weren't looking for domestic hijacked airliners. However, they were preparing drills just for such a thing. I find it comical that you suggest that NORAD was not looking for domestic hijacked airliners despite what they state above and despite the drills that were focused on just that thing. I think you are a tad too uninformed or misinformed.

defaultdotxbeas was pointed out by dave rogers NORAD protected US airspace with the assumption that any threats would originate outside that airspace

Dave pointed out something that was correct prior to 1994. Did you not notice the date on the document? 5/3/1994. This is why there was a shift in thinking and in practice.

Dave Rogers-Whether or not your premise is correct, your conclusion doesn't follow. In the real world, budget constraints and political considerations frequently result in an organisation having specific responsibilities, but not the resources to discharge those responsibilities as fully as might ideally be hoped. You personally might think it advisable that protection of air space over North America would require full radar coverage of that air space, but records show that, prior to 9-11, NORAD chose to protect air space over North America by preventing threats from entering that airspace. Dave

Dave, I think the following NORAD radar coverage map destroys your position. If you focus on the NEADS region, NORAD radars covered the entire area from where the attacks took place.

 

[Dave Rogers]

What I find really amusing is that Swing is basing his argument that NORAD was exhaustively protecting all continental US airspace in 2001 on a document from 1994 entitled,

Continental Air Defense: A Dedicated Force Is No Longer Needed

The clue is in the title.

Dave

 

[Swing Dangler]

What I find really amusing is that Swing is basing his argument that NORAD was exhaustively protecting all continental US airspace in 2001 on a document from 1994 entitled,

Continental Air Defense: A Dedicated Force Is No Longer Needed

The clue is in the title.

Dave

The dodge is noted. The clue is in the details, Dave. You know that, correct?
No comment on the radar coverage map?