Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[a_unique_person]

Germany had been under military occupation for 40 years by four countries, among them our "hereditary enemy" and the much despised Bolsheviks, we also lost territories much bigger than the "Palestinians" did and not only to one country but to three or four.

As WildCat said: We accepted our defeat. Now we're one of the richest countries in the world and our standard of living is probably one of the highest throughout the world together with some other EU countries. So what's your point?

Settlements? How many American or Russian towns are there in Germany, that Germans are banned from?

 

[ddt]

Germany had been under military occupation for 40 years by four countries, among them our "hereditary enemy" and the much despised Bolsheviks, we also lost territories much bigger than the "Palestinians" did and not only to one country but to three or four.

As WildCat said: We accepted our defeat. Now we're one of the richest countries in the world and our standard of living is probably one of the highest throughout the world together with some other EU countries. So what's your point?

And how many checkpoints were there inside the BRD/FRG, manned by US/UK/French occupying troops? Or inside the DDR/GDR, manned by Russian occupying troops?

 

[mrbaracuda]

I'm not even talking to you, ddt.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Settlements? How many American or Russian towns are there in Germany, that Germans are banned from?

Oh come on now, what does this have to do with it? How many settlements have been disassembled to give land back to the "Palestinians"? What about German parts of Prussia that fell to Poland? See anyone complaining about "Poland the Occupier" having established settlements there? Or the Saarland? See anyone complaining about the French having established settlements there? See Germans launching rockets at them? See any Germans blowing themselves up shouting "Führer hu akhbar!"? Or the Czechs? Oh damn, that was German territory, wasn't it? Oh my! ****ing hell.

God, I'll stop going into these threads now. Have fun.

 

[webfusion]

ddt continues to err:

The Palestinians don't have the assurance of some fixed, future borders at all, as shown nearly daily.

ETA: The Israelis thus far haven't even acknowledged the Palestinians' rights to have a state.

In point of fact, the Oslo Accords (which are technically still in force) and the Annaoplis Joint Declarations of last year, do indeed acknowledge the goal of a Palestinian State.
"We meet to lay the foundation for the establishment of a new nation -- a democratic Palestinian state that will live side by side with Israel in peace and security." -- President of the United States, speaking on behalf of Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/11/20071127-2.html


As for "fixed" borders" --- they're right now negotiating that as we speak.
They are disputed. Just know one thing: The 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines are not now, and never were, nor likely ever will be, the future fixed borders.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957522.html
"Canada opposes Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem and does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the City of Jerusalem as defined in the 1947 UN Partition Plan."

 

[ddt]

I'm not even talking to you, ddt.

Because you can't refute my arguments?

Oh come on now, what does this have to do with it? How many settlements have been disassembled to give land back to the "Palestinians"?

Please tell us. 6 in the Gaza Strip, that's all I know of.

What about German parts of Prussia that fell to Poland? See anyone complaining about "Poland the Occupier" having established settlements there?

Then you'd also have to throw in all the Israeli settlements built on or near the 400+ Palestinian villages that were razed during and short after 1948/1949.

Or the Saarland? See anyone complaining about the French having established settlements there?

What French settlements in the Saar? The only recent French reference to the Saar I know is Oskar Lafontaine being nicknamed "Napoleon of the Saar".

Or the Czechs? Oh damn, that was German territory, wasn't it? Oh my! ****ing hell.

Good you acknowledge it yourself. If you look at a historical map, the Czech border in 1945 was the same as in 1937 and as it had been from "time immemorial" -- or at least from the times of the Premyszlid regal dynasty.

 

[WildCat]

Then you'd also have to throw in all the Israeli settlements built on or near the 400+ Palestinian villages that were razed during and short after 1948/1949.

Did you miss the big honking war going on there at the time? It wasn't just Arab villages getting razed you know.

 

[ddt]

Did you miss the big honking war going on there at the time? It wasn't just Arab villages getting razed you know.

I didn't miss that war, no. But I didn't miss either that Israel has gone to quite some lengths to erase any Palestinian heritage. From a Haaretz article titled History Erased:

In July 1950, Majdal - today Ashkelon - was still a mixed town. About 3,000 Palestinians lived there in a closed, fenced-off ghetto, next to the recently arrived Jewish residents. Before the 1948 war, Majdal had been a commercial and administrative center with a population of 12,000. It also had religious importance: nearby, amid the ruins of ancient Ashkelon, stood Mash'had Nabi Hussein, an 11th-century structure where, according to tradition, the head of Hussein Bin Ali, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad, was interred; his death in Karbala, Iraq, marked the onset of the rift between Shi'ites and Sunnis. Muslim pilgrims, both Shi'ite and Sunni, would visit the site. But after July 1950, there was nothing left for them to visit: that's when the Israel Defense Forces blew up Mash'had Nabi Hussein.

This was not the only Muslim holy place destroyed after Israel's War of Independence. According to a book by Dr. Meron Benvenisti, of the 160 mosques in the Palestinian villages incorporated into Israel under the armistice agreements, fewer than 40 are still standing. What is unusual about the case of Mash'had Nabi Hussein is that the demolition is documented, and direct responsibility was taken by none other than the GOC Southern Command at the time, an officer named Moshe Dayan. The documentation shows that the holy site was blown up deliberately, as part of a broader operation that included at least two additional mosques, one in Yavneh and the other in Ashdod.

And the article mentions numerous other instances too. Systematic erasure:

As the documents quoted in the book show, only a small part of this devastation occurred in the heat of battle. The vast majority took place later, because the remnants of the Arab past were considered blots on the landscape and evoked facts everyone wanted to forget.

Ben-Gurion saw everything that existed here before the revival of the Jewish community as wasteland.

 

[webfusion]

... 6 (dismantled jewish settlements) in the Gaza Strip, that's all I know of.

Twenty-one, and four in the West Bank.

 

[gtc]

And how many checkpoints were there inside the BRD/FRG, manned by US/UK/French occupying troops? Or inside the DDR/GDR, manned by Russian occupying troops?

Seriously?

Germany was divided into the GDR and DDR. There were numerous checkpoints between the two. If it was anything like the USSR, then East Germans were not permitted free movement even within the DDR.

The difference between Israel/Palestine and the other countries that were changed as a result of WWII is Israel's Arab neighbours were not prepared to let the displaced Arabs resettle in new homes nor were they willing to accept the existence of Israel and the new borders that resulted. It is only in recent years that some of her neighbours have recognised Israel's right to exist.

Germany didn't keep the Germans who lost their homes in today's Poland (and other countries) locked up in refugee camps (nor did they restrict their ability to find jobs etc) in the hopes that they would eventually defeat Poland and recapture the land.

Germany didn't keep launching military attacks and terrorist atrocities and then didn't complain when they lost. Germany and her allies didn't keep demanding that the UN equate support for the existence of Poland with racism.

 

[ddt]

And how many checkpoints were there inside the BRD/FRG, manned by US/UK/French occupying troops? Or inside the DDR/GDR, manned by Russian occupying troops?

Germany was divided into the GDR and DDR. There were numerous checkpoints between the two. If it was anything like the USSR, then East Germans were not permitted free movement even within the DDR.

Yes, due to the cold war two states developed, BRD and DDR. But that does not diminish the claim that both were sovereign states, with clear boundaries, and an occupation force only in name. Both places were run by Germans. The thing you call "checkpoints" were normal border controls between the two, manned by Germans on both sides. Freedom of movement within the DDR existed, and even if not, you'd have to prove that that was instituted by the USSR and not by the DDR government themselves.

The difference between Israel/Palestine and the other countries that were changed as a result of WWII is Israel's Arab neighbours were not prepared to let the displaced Arabs resettle in new homes nor were they willing to accept the existence of Israel and the new borders that resulted. It is only in recent years that some of her neighbours have recognised Israel's right to exist.

The fundamental difference is that Germany as a state already existed, and so did other countries that were changed as a result of WW2. Neither Israel nor Palestine did exist as a state -- only a British-held mandate. The displaced Germans held a German passport and so Germany (both of them) had the responsibility to accept them. The expelled Palestinians were no Syrians or Lebanese or Transjordans. That's like saying that Holland or Denmark should have taken up German refugees because they are also Germanic peoples.

As to the right to exist: the Arab states did sign the Lausanne protocol in 1949, which implied partition of Palestine and thus Israel's right to exist.

Germany didn't keep the Germans who lost their homes in today's Poland (and other countries) locked up in refugee camps (nor did they restrict their ability to find jobs etc) in the hopes that they would eventually defeat Poland and recapture the land.

As said above: these were Germans with German passports.

Germany didn't keep launching military attacks and terrorist atrocities and then didn't complain when they lost.

The first would have been quite dangerous, given the Cold War, wouldn't it? And as to Germany not complaining, they had some more pressuring issues, hadn't they? Try to come clear with setting the world on fire, with the Endlösung, and try to rebuild their country that was in shatters. BTW, the Bund der Vertriebenen did heavily criticize Willy Brandt's Ostpolitik, and didn't accept Brandt's acceptance of the Oder-Neisse border.

Germany and her allies didn't keep demanding that the UN equate support for the existence of Poland with racism.

Which Germany and which allies? And Poland existed before, and the continuous existence of a Polish people on that soil during the last 1,000 years is attested.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Israel was founded by immigrants from Europe. All of Israels leaders at least to Golda Meir had been born and raised in Europe. The indigenous Jewish population of Palestine did not play a role in the struggle for an Israeli state.

 

[gtc]

Yes, due to the cold war two states developed, BRD and DDR. But that does not diminish the claim that both were sovereign states, with clear boundaries, and an occupation force only in name. Both places were run by Germans. The thing you call "checkpoints" were normal border controls between the two, manned by Germans on both sides. Freedom of movement within the DDR existed, and even if not, you'd have to prove that that was instituted by the USSR and not by the DDR government themselves.

I think you are making too much of the distinction. The end result is that the check points restricted the movements of Germans around their nation. The border was entirely artificial.

The fundamental difference is that Germany as a state already existed, and so did other countries that were changed as a result of WW2. Neither Israel nor Palestine did exist as a state -- only a British-held mandate. The displaced Germans held a German passport and so Germany (both of them) had the responsibility to accept them. The expelled Palestinians were no Syrians or Lebanese or Transjordans. That's like saying that Holland or Denmark should have taken up German refugees because they are also Germanic peoples.

I don't think that Jordan existed either. I am pretty sure Trans Jordan was defined as the West Bank that wasn't to be Jewish plus the East Bank. I am not sure that Syria or Lebanon existed but haven't investigated.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Israel was founded by immigrants from Europe. All of Israels leaders at least to Golda Meir had been born and raised in Europe. The indigenous Jewish population of Palestine did not play a role in the struggle for an Israeli state.

I have heard this before, but seen no evidence that the indigenous Jewish population played no role. I know you can't prove a negative but I am sure one of the Israelis can shed some light on it. This also ignores the large number of Jews from Arab and Middle Eastern countries who were expelled after Israel was established and downplays the obvious fears that Jews had about remaining in Europe.

 

[mrbaracuda]

Because you can't refute my arguments?

No, because I'm simply not talking to you. I was talking to a unique person at the time.

 

[ddt]

Because you can't refute my arguments?

No, because I'm simply not talking to you. I was talking to a unique person at the time.

I wasn't aware that that conversation was private. Must be some new rule I haven't heard of. But then, Germans love rules and formalizing things?

 

[Praktik]

I am not sure that Syria or Lebanon existed but haven't investigated.

Syria existed, it was the french that sliced off Lebanon and made it a "new country" though there was an ethnically distinct group of people that lived there with some big differences with Damascus.

But lebanon was the one that didn't exist, I forget when Syria was originally created but I do know that lebanon was born out of French colonial policies in Syria.

Kind of helps add context to accusations of "Syrian meddling" in Lebanon and why they might think they have a right to mess around there.

 

[ddt]

I think you are making too much of the distinction. The end result is that the check points restricted the movements of Germans around their nation. The border was entirely artificial.

But it's entirely incomparable with the way the checkpoints in the West Bank operate. You could still travel from the Zugspitze to Flensburg, or from Dresden to Stralsund. That's a whole different league than that when you need an ambulance, it has to get from another enclave, move out through a checkpoint, move into your enclave through a checkpoint and in the meantime, the patient dies.

I don't think that Jordan existed either. I am pretty sure Trans Jordan was defined as the West Bank that wasn't to be Jewish plus the East Bank. I am not sure that Syria or Lebanon existed but haven't investigated.

Did not investigate??? What about some basic wiki search? Transjordan was as the name says: on the other side of the Jordan river - so no West Bank. The French mandates had already been split into Syria and Lebanon.

ETA: Care to respond to this previous statement of mine:

The expelled Palestinians were no Syrians or Lebanese or Transjordans. That's like saying that Holland or Denmark should have taken up German refugees because they are also Germanic peoples.

I have heard this before, but seen no evidence that the indigenous Jewish population played no role. I know you can't prove a negative but I am sure one of the Israelis can shed some light on it. This also ignores the large number of Jews from Arab and Middle Eastern countries who were expelled after Israel was established and downplays the obvious fears that Jews had about remaining in Europe.

I hope some Israeli chimes in about that too. All names I've heard/read about in relation to the founding of Israel were European import. I don't mean to say that to downplay in any way Jewish fears. But look at it from the Palestinian side: some European colonists came and took their land by force, helped by a European administration, and kicked them out. Not unlike the colonization of the US.

 

[ddt]

Syria existed, it was the french that sliced off Lebanon and made it a "new country" though there was an ethnically distinct group of people that lived there with some big differences with Damascus.

But lebanon was the one that didn't exist, I forget when Syria was originally created but I do know that lebanon was born out of French colonial policies in Syria.

Kind of helps add context to accusations of "Syrian meddling" in Lebanon and why they might think they have a right to mess around there.

There was and is a big Christian (Maronite) community in Lebanon. France had positioned themselves already during Ottoman times as a champion of them.

When making the Mandates, France was shrewd enough to make Lebanon a separate Mandate so it would have a Christian majority and they would have an easier foothold.

 

[gtc]

I will investigate your claim about Transjordan. My understanding was that the Trans prefix meant that it covered both sides of the Jordan River and that it became Jordan when it lost the West Bank.

 

[a_unique_person]

Twenty-one, and four in the West Bank.

Exactly. The West Bank has seen an explosion in settlement population, which even George Bush and Condi state is illegal and a military occupation.

 

[webfusion]

...George Bush and Condi...

http://www.electricfetus.com/images/bmh/22/1CBH5894422.jpg


N-E-X-T.