FLT 77 Flight Recorder Data - Pilots for Truth

[jaydeehess]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2702750&postcount=15

for a timeline in a post by gumboot.

 

[jaydeehess]

,,, and on the web page cited a few posts above

Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, the 6'2" Vietnam Veteran looked up, directly into the right engine of a 757 commercial airliner cresting the hilltop Navy Annex. It reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine. "Had I not hit the deck, the plane would have taken off my head."Source

Mark Willams: "When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.' "Source
"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
–Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept. Source

 

[beachnut]

... flight 77 turned back and headed for washington at 9 AM and crashed into the Pentagon at 9:31 AM which means it travelled 300 in 30 min which is about 600 MPH. Even though official Pentagon attack time was 9:37 AM based on evidence in the book the probable time of attack is 9:31 AM. Now there is questions also about UA 175 exceeding max flight speed but will discuss that in appropriate thread. The max speed for 757 at 30,000 ft is 568 mph. The lower altitude would dramatically reduce this speed so it could not achieve even the max speed, so how is it possible it covered 300 miles in 30 min.
Even to assume assume the Pentagon was attacked at 9:37 we can still see its not possible as the plane would have to maintain a speed of 486 MPH yet some radar readings say that flight 77 was travelling at between 400 - 480 MPH.
Ben

The plane started back at 8:54 and hits the Pentagon after 9:37! FACT Now there is one problem, clocks, I am using a reliable clock, but idiots in 9/11 truth do not understand time. I am not sure why they do not understand time; who knows?

43 minutes, not 30 minutes. Sorry, but your book is a lie! Liar author makes up lies and lets people who can not look up stuff fall for fraud. Who would think there are liars out there?

That is 418 mph! Wowzer! What were the winds that day at altitude; what were they? Did you know the winds are usually out of the west and sometimes over 200 mph. That kind of day would give at attitude a ground speed of 650 would only be 450 airspeed. Wow! Do you understand this?

So far the book looks like a bs pile of junk.

 

[wtcconspiracy]

Oops, you do not understand flying. First of all you have to use the correct times. The plane at atitude was going 500 mph. So? So far you have a lot of bs.

i cant understand this post..what does the plane at atitude mean.....

 

[beachnut]

i cant understand this post..what does the plane at atitude mean.....

altitude, oops, you can not even correct my errors, how can you correct the lies of the book?

Do you understand ICET?

 

[Reheat]

While we're on the subject of airspeed, AA77 could have been going over 600mph GROUND SPEED. Prevailing winds aloft are generally from the West in the US and sometimes they are very strong. Winds in the jet stream can exceed 100 mph. That means if the aircraft is going 480 True Airspeed it could would be going 580 mph over the ground, etc. which is how time over distance is calculated.

In this case your times are wrong, but you need to understand the airspeeds anyway because it could be relevant to your calculated times.

Ben, you need to stop reading CT Sites, Videos, Books and perhaps you won't be so confused.

 

[wtcconspiracy]

altitude, oops, you can not even correct my errors, how can you correct the lies of the book?

Do you understand ICET?

No what is it

 

[Reheat]

No what is it

I = Indicated Airspeed shown on cockpit guages
C = Calibrated Airspeed - Indicated Airspeed corrected for instrument and installation error.
E = Equivalent Airspeed - Calibrated Airspeed corrected for compressibility.
T = True Airspeed - Equivalent Airspeed corrected for temperature.

GS = Ground Speed - True Airspeed corrected for winds.

 

[beachnut]

damn pilots

so much jargon... how does 9/11 truth mess up the flying part so bad?

some will tell him 77 only was over the max speed for less than 20 seconds; I wonder if he knows what the max speed is. In fact if we consider the leg to the pentagon a dive, 77 was not over speed by much. But I still think the low altitude placard is around 350KIAS to make it easy.

 

[Tweeter]

Pilots? You guys couldnt fly a kite.

 

[Horatius]

i cant understand this post..what does the plane at atitude mean.....

Beachnut flies planes (or he did, not sure if he still does), and he has an attitude.


But we like him!

 

[beachnut]

Pilots? You guys couldnt fly a kite.

I flew a big tricycle with 4 engines. My job was to be on time! (note, I never got to fly with these engines, the CRM-56; my engines were built in the 50s, which I was flying in the 90s. Ford made some of the parts for our engines, the J57)

Reheat flew the little jets that are fun. I gave him gas, he would go do his thing. We flew kites with engines, no strings.

Is your post indicative of all your posts? (i kept the statements real simple, so you will understand; i included pictures) Your post is very informative on the 77 FDR. Thank you

 

[tsig]

Pilots? You guys couldnt fly a kite.

I have flown kites. Nice bird try itt.

 

[beachnut]

The max speed for 757 at 30,000 ft is 568 mph.

So? That is close to being correct at .86 MACH.

The lower altitude would dramatically reduce this speed so it could not achieve even the max speed, so how is it possible it covered 300 miles in 30 min.

As shown it was 43 minutes; book lies. RECAP
545 mph was the average speed from 8:54 to 9:20. The speed then averaged 410 mph from 9:21 to 9:30. And then averaged 340 mph until the terrorist pushed up the throttles in the last 10 to 20 seconds to reach speeds over 526 mph and impact at 9:37. The made up times in the book are lies.

With the simple calculation of 418 mph for the 300 miles in 43 minutes. Looks like the book is in error on the flying stuff.

And the FAA and controllers said they know that in the last moments the flight dived 7000 FT towards pentagon. Only a fully functional transponder would yield a digital display indicating the altitude of the plane. Yet the transponder was said to have been turned off.

After 77 crashed into the Pentagon, the FAA pulls all the radar data. On the radar there is the primary target from 77. No transponder need be on. With the tapes you can calculate altitude from the radars; you could look up this stuff.

What else did this guy get wrong in the book?

 

[Reheat]

Ssssshhhh Beachnut, he's studying trying to figure out the formulas for ICET. You're overloading him with too much information.

 

[Anti-sophist]

As already stated, the FDR is completely and entirely consistent with the around ~43 minutes between turn-around and impact. The speeds contained in the FDR also completely agree with traveling that distance in that time.

As far as the FDR data is concerned (which is the topic of this thread), there's no evidence at all to support a 30 minute flight time.

 

[jaydeehess]

As already stated, the FDR is completely and entirely consistent with the around ~43 minutes between turn-around and impact. The speeds contained in the FDR also completely agree with traveling that distance in that time.

As far as the FDR data is concerned (which is the topic of this thread), there's no evidence at all to support a 30 minute flight time.

In short then
43-30=13
13/43=0.30
,,, which means the time given in the book is off by 30%

 

[gumboot]

The evidence states that flight 77 turned back and headed for washington at 9 AM and crashed into the Pentagon at 9:31 AM which means it travelled 300 in 30 min which is about 600 MPH.

As others have pointed out AA77 was hijacked between 0851 and 0854 and it crashed at 0837. Your flight time is off by at least 12 minutes.

What exactly happened to initially make some people monitoring this aircraft believe it went down in Kentucky.

Indianapolis ARTCC had simultaneous total loss of radar return and communication. By the way it went "missing" and was suspected crashed over Ohio, not Kentucky.

Why was the plane invisible for so long.

It was only "invisible" for 9 minutes. The reason it was "invisible" was because the preferred coverage Long Range Radar site for the radar sort box in which it was flying had only a secondary surveillance radar which requires cooperation from an aircraft transponder.

Is there really no other way to track a plane once the transponder has been turned off.

An aircraft with a deactivated transponder can be tracked on Primary Surveillance Radar which works by receiving a radio signal bounced directly off the hull of the aircraft. However Air Traffic Controllers can only see such returns if their Primary Radar coverage is turned on, and if the Radar Data Processor is sending primary information to their screen.

If you have primary coverage available where the transponder is turned off the controller can simply flick a switch and the primary return will immediately appear where the secondary return previously was. Then you can continue to closely track that primary return and keep track of the aircraft.

However if the transponder is turned off in an area without a primary feed, the primary return cannot be picked up. This is what happened with AA77. When AA77 reappeared on primary radar it appeared in a place no one was looking for it, and promptly entered another ARTCCs airspace.

By now, of course, the aircraft could be anywhere, and controllers turning on their primary radar coverage are faced with dozens of primary-only returns on dozens of different screens. There's no way to work out which is AA77, and no way to track every single primary return at once.

And when this plane was believed to have crashed in Kentucky why did no one react to this. No one was sent to look for this aircraft. No emergency response, as if a downed 757 over kentucky did not constitute emergency response.

At 0908 Indianapolis ARTCC contacted the USAF Search And Rescue Coordination Centre at Langley Air Force Base and reported that an American Airlines 757, flight 77, was suspected crashed in southern Ohio. The SAR centre is responsible for coordinating all search and rescue efforts inside the United States. A Search and Rescue mission was immediately activated to look for the crash site.

Then once it was discovered it was not down no action was taken to find out why flight 77 was missing. It can just go untracked, undetected.

At about 0920 Indianapolis ARTCC learned of the other hijackings in Boston and New York airspace, and immediately reassessed the status of AA77. At 0921 Indianapolis ARTCC notified the national Air Traffic Control System Command Centre (ATCSCC) in Herndon, Virginia that they suspected AA77 was a hijacking, and may be heading east.

The ATCSCC immediately told Washington ARTCC and Cleveland ARTCC to start looking for AA77 on primary radar, as well as Dulles TRACON.

At 0932 Dulles TRACON detected a fast moving low altitude primary-only radar return heading east within 6 miles of the White House.

Fly into the nations most restricted airspace.

AA77 did not enter restricted airspace at any time during its journey.

In then flies past White House and Capitol building to hit an almost empty and reinforced section in the Pentagon.

AA77 flew past neither the Capitol nor the White House. The section of the Pentagon that was hit was called Wedge 1, and the impact area crossed diagonally so that the exit hole was just across on the very edge of Wedge 2. On the morning of 9/11 Wedge 1 was 85% occupied and Wedge 2 was 40% occupied. Approximately 2,500 people were in the immediate impact area.

Why did this flight not crash at the White House. Would this not have been a much more devestating blow to the American Government.

Osama Bin Laden chose the Pentagon as a target because it was symbolic of US military power.

The White House was initially proposed as a target however Mohammed Atta concluded after an aerial recon that it would be too difficult to hit due to its small size and the surrounding geography. United 93 was intended to hit the US Capitol Building.

And the FAA and controllers said they know that in the last moments the flight dived 7000 FT towards pentagon. Only a fully functional transponder would yield a digital display indicating the altitude of the plane. Yet the transponder was said to have been turned off.

The flight path of AA77 was determined by the Flight Data Recorder which is incidentally what this thread is about. The FDR records aircraft altitude as well as rates of ascent and descent.

AA77s final flight path was tracked by Potomac TRACON (usually referred to as Dulles TRACON) which takes primary radar feeds from a number of ASR-9 radar sites. The ASR-9 is a short range primary surveillance radar that does not have height finding ability.

AA77 did not dive 7,000ft towards the Pentagon in the last moments. It descended 6,300ft over a period of 3 minutes and 18 seconds before descending a final 2,000ft in about 30 seconds.

Why will the FBI not show the Hotel Sheraton and CITGO gas station video tapes of what happened at the Pentagon.

The FBI was in possession of a total of 85 videos that FBI Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire determined might be relevant to the FOIA request for videos of the impact of AA77. Of those:

56 did not show the Pentagon building, the Pentagon crash site, or the impact of AA77.
16 showed the Pentagon building but neither the crash site nor the impact of AA77.
12 Showed the Pentagon building and the crash site, but only after the impact had occurred.
1 Video showed the Pentagon building, the crash site, and the impact of AA77.

Maguire states that she did not find any evidence that the FBI were in possession of a video taken from the Sheraton Hotel. Videos from the Pentagon security gate camera (which showed the actual impact), from the CITGO Station and from the Doubletree Hotel were released.

 

[jaydeehess]

Maguire states that she did not find any evidence that the FBI were in possession of a video taken from the Sheraton Hotel. Videos from the Pentagon security gate camera (which showed the actual impact), from the CITGO Station and from the Doubletree Hotel were released.

My bad, didn't notice the hotel name differences in my post above.

 

[Calcas]

As others have pointed out AA77 was hijacked between 0851 and 0854 and it crashed at 0837. Your flight time is off by at least 12 minutes.

Excellent recap of events gumboot. I knew most of it but your times and details are spot on. A few things I didn't know though. Such as, how was it determined that UA93 was destined for the Capitol? I always assumed so but is there any evidence?

Anyway, Gravy (or somebody) should stick your recap into one of the many research links, if it isn't already there.