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So, are black people really more racist than whites?

In my opinion voting for Obama because you believe black people are inherently better at being president would be racist, but I do not believe that is happening.
I do not think that voting for him because we have never had a black president, because you identify with him, or you think he will understand your problems is racist.

There is clearly a cultural divide. It is more like stew than fondue I guess.
 
I already answered that, with the obvious and self evident fact that some people are single issue voters inasmuch as they vote for their own. Creationists tend to be, Mormons seem to be, but those issues can be described by less tangible things than the color of a person's skin.


As to your question, I have to ask; are there any black Mormons?

What's his name?

OK, so when Mormons overwhelmingly vote for a Mormon candidate, they are "single issue voters" but when blacks overwhelmingly vote for a black candidate, they are "racists"? I don't know if there are any black Mormons.

BTW, how do you define "racism"?
 
Blacks always vote overwhelmingly for black candidates. It might be because they don't have much power and consider themselves disenfranchised so they naturally want to prop up their own. That's not racist in itself. Black culture is however very ethnocentric and overt racism is much more commonplace than with whites. Being a white racist is a sin of the highest order. Obama can go to a "black church" that cherishes "black family values" and some conservatives will whine about it, but it's not considered that big of a deal. A candidate who attends a church that cherishes "white family values" would of course not be tolerated. There are some obvious double-standards which shouldn't be put up with.

If it were about being Kenyan or Irish, that would be one thing. That could be viewed a bit differently (although they are just as pointless as racial pride). But "white" and "black" are broad categories that no one should embrace as meaningful labels of themselves.
 
Blacks always vote overwhelmingly for black candidates. It might be because they don't have much power and consider themselves disenfranchised so they naturally want to prop up their own. That's not racist in itself. Black culture is however very ethnocentric and overt racism is much more commonplace than with whites.

Really?

Being a white racist is a sin of the highest order. Obama can go to a "black church" that cherishes "black family values" and some conservatives will whine about it, but it's not considered that big of a deal. A candidate who attends a church that cherishes "white family values" would of course not be tolerated.

What are "Black family values"? What are "White Family values"?

There are some obvious double-standards which shouldn't be put up with.

Such as?

If it were about being Kenyan or Irish, that would be one thing. That could be viewed a bit differently (although they are just as pointless as racial pride). But "white" and "black" are broad categories that no one should embrace as meaningful labels of themselves.

Hmm.
 
Many ethnic groups stick together. You think Italians didn't vote disproportionately for Giuliani, or Catholics for Kennedy, or Jews for Lieberman?

And there's a valid reason why. Despite the common belief that people vote based on issues, in fact they often look to find points about the guy they can identify with. Veterans vote for McCain disproportionately. I'm sure Mitt Romney had the CEO vote. Religious people vote for Mike Huckabee. Women are flocking to Hillary, especially white women. That whites are interested in the Obama campaign may have to do with different areas of identification--youth, masculinity, idealism, etc. And of course, there's Clinton fatigue as well to be considered.

Except Obama is half-white, just like Hillary is half-man.
 
In my opinion voting for Obama because you believe black people are inherently better at being president would be racist, but I do not believe that is happening.

I don't think anyone has proposed that, yet.

I do not think that voting for him because we have never had a black president, because you identify with him, or you think he will understand your problems is racist.

I don't think that addresses the OP.

There is clearly a cultural divide. It is more like stew than fondue I guess.

Kind of like this post?:blush:
 
OK, so when Mormons overwhelmingly vote for a Mormon candidate, they are "single issue voters" but when blacks overwhelmingly vote for a black candidate, they are "racists"? I don't know if there are any black Mormons.

This point has already been tackled, but the answer is that being Mormon can be labeled as a "single" issue for simplicity sake, but as I'm sure you agree it is better described as a culture and way of life, which is what Mormons may vote for, just like many other "peoples".

In the case of Obama and black voters; Obama has no such unique commonality with the average black American. His background is in fact uniquely original compared to the average American of any color. If they vote for him in significantly larger proportions than other Americans, then it would appear to be simply because the color of his skin is similar. If white people negatively judge a person primarily on the color or if a white preferentially judges a white on color, it is racism, but if a black person positively/preferentially judges a person primarily on color it is not?

As to black Mormons, perhaps you are unaware that the Mormon story is about people of color being condemned to dark skin by god for their prior sins. They were openly racist until the 70's, and not just by convention, but by god's order, when suddenly god decided to reveal a new truth more in line with the rest of society. Needless to say, not many, if any, black Americans have bought into that yet.

BTW, how do you define "racism"?

In this forum it takes many flavors, but I think I've defined the simple definition above.
 
Elind said:
As to Latinos, they require a different hypothesis.
That swooshing sound was my point passing over your head.

Good point, however no one is suggesting that black voters are stupider than whites.
No, you suggested that black voters are racist because they are voting for a black candidate in large margins.

So, you contend that blacks were not racist in 2000 and 2004 because they did not choose the black candidate in large margins, but became racist in 2008 because of their votes for Obama.

So what turned them racist in the last 8 years? Something else you can pin on Bush, I suppose.
 
However if 80% of white people did not vote for Obama because he was black, then of course we would be a racist nation, but when 80% of black people vote for Obama because he is black (or at least the other 30% or so of them who vote over and above whites), then that is not racist??

It seems that if one votes for someone due to race that is not racist, but if one votes against someone for race then it is?

What am I missing here?
What you are missing here is your unstated and unwarranted assumption that all of the 30 point discrepancy that you refer to is the result of irrational, racially motivated voting on the part of black voters.

That figure could, for example, be accounted for by 15% of black people preferentially voting for a candidate of their race, and 15% of white people doing exactly the same thing, in which case you would have no warrant for concluding that black people are "more racist". Or any other way of splitting the 30 points would also account for the figures. You, for some reason, have chosen to ascribe all 30 percentage points to bias on the part of blacks, and conclude from that that they are "more racist".

To put it another way, you have concluded that blacks are more racist based on the unproven premise that all of the racial bias apparent in this election can be ascribed to blacks. It needs a little more work to turn it into a formal petitio principii, but you're getting there.
 
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I'm sure alot of women will vote for Clinton only because she's a woman too. This happened over here as well not too long ago. Although the female candidate was also my choice (she ultimately was the right one IMO), I heard alot of women say they explicitly would vote for her because she's a woman, which kind of shocked me and annoyed me. I wouldn't call it sexism, but I wouldn't call it a rational and thought out vote either. I have to admit I do the same thing on a federal level. I would never vote for someone from Alberta who doesn't speak a word of French for example. What would there be in it for me?

People will vote the the candidate that most represent them, the ones that litterally look like them in most cases. Like most people vote for the candidate that comes from their home town, or state. When you think about it there's no real reason for it but an emotional one. I'm sure most redneck Texans voted for Bush. That's a sad fact of life, that's not a rational vote, but an emotional one.
 
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That swooshing sound was my point passing over your head.

No, I saw it at my feet. You want to change the issue to a discussion of a different group of people. Be my guest, but leave out the funny sounds.

No, you suggested that black voters are racist because they are voting for a black candidate in large margins.

That is the implied suggestion, although I am not suggesting it is a malicious form of racism, if that qualification makes it less painful for you to discuss.

So, you contend that blacks were not racist in 2000 and 2004 because they did not choose the black candidate in large margins, but became racist in 2008 because of their votes for Obama.

No, I'm saying that they were smart enough to see that the 2000 and 2004 candidates were losers, but give them a decent racial choice and issues become irrelevant as far as their final decision is concerned. "They" being a significant proportion.

So what turned them racist in the last 8 years? Something else you can pin on Bush, I suppose.

You are getting testy and irrelevant. Is this too politically incorrect for you to take rationally?

If "they" wanted to stick it to Bush, I propose Hillary is a better choice.
 
I keep seeing numbers that say something like 80+% of Black Americans are voting for Obama.
We have entered the age of tribal voting, or perhaps we have re-entered it.

How is this a surprise? You can be racialist with the positive aspect, being for "your people," without necessarily blatantly anti any other group of people.

It is my hope that Obama mobilizes the black vote in America, and gets people off their duffs and taking a shot at speaking out via the ballot box.

Elind, would you consider me racist if I voted for Clinton over Obama? She's white, ya know.

Oh, wait, would you then call me a feminist? She's a woman, you know.

Oh, wait, she's a college grad with a post graduate degree.

Me too.

You could call me an elitist if I voted for her.

Your premise has a few holes.

DR
 
What you are missing here is your unstated and unwarranted assumption that all of the 30 point discrepancy that you refer to is the result of irrational, racially motivated voting on the part of black voters.

That figure could, for example, be accounted for by 15% of black people preferentially voting for a candidate of their race, and 15% of white people doing exactly the same thing, in which case you would have no warrant for concluding that black people are "more racist". Or any other way of splitting the 30 points would also account for the figures. You, for some reason, have chosen to ascribe all 30 percentage points to bias on the part of blacks, and conclude from that that they are "more racist".

To put it another way, you have concluded that blacks are more racist based on the unproven premise that all of the racial bias apparent in this election can be ascribed to blacks. It needs a little more work to turn it into a formal petitio principii, but you're getting there.

This is actually a clever point you make (I haven't been able to say that in living memory:eye-poppi); that certain statistical biases can reinforce each other in the same apparent direction.

However I don't think your arithmetic is valid and you are not comparing comparable totals. You cannot take a percentage of one large group and simply add it to a percentage of a smaller group and say the result is meaningful.

If, in round numbers, the voting population of black Americans is about 10%, and at the moment we assign the candidates 50% each of the total Democratic voters (close enough), and assume an 80% bias on the part of black Americans, then Obama's 50% total can only be due to at most 8% of his total from blacks (assuming the 80% bias), and Hillary's at 2% from blacks.

Lets also say, for simplicity that there are just 100 total voters. 90 white and 10 black. If evenly split that would give them each 45 white and 5 black voters. That would mean Hillary has 47 white voters (let's ignore other groups for this argument, although they perhaps can contribute to the apparent effect) and Obama has 42.

That means that 30% of black voters "seem" to vote on race (3 out of the total of 10), while only 2 whites do (47 minus the theoretically equal 45). If there is a white bias (as there no doubt always is to some degree) it therefore can't be more than 2%.

If we take your 15% of white voters being biased then that would mean that Hillary has less than 35% of the unbiased white vote which is not something small enough to be missed by the pollsters and means that a large percentage of whites are blatantly lying when they claim to be unbiased by color (in the upper 90% if my memory serves me right in a recent poll, which fits with the above 2% estimate worked backwards).

As to your final point regarding motivation and racism, there are degrees and categories of racism, some malicious and deliberate, some unconscious or cultural, but in the final analysis I am still looking to be convinced that this apparent discrepancy doesn't suggest that black are more likely to vote just for their own color than whites.
 
However I don't think your arithmetic is valid and you are not comparing comparable totals. You cannot take a percentage of one large group and simply add it to a percentage of a smaller group and say the result is meaningful.
You subtracted the two figures to get 30%.

More on your arithmetic later.
 
In our society if a black votes for a black because he is black, or if a woman votes for a woman because she is a woman, this is not considered racist or sexist because these two groups are considered minority victim groups with regards to the history of American politics. If a white Protestant male votes for a white Protestant male because the candidate is white, Protestant, and male, our culture considers this racist as this is not considered a minority victim group.
 

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