I agree with you on this point and understand that the belief is not evidence. But I do think the illness is evidence in support of their belief. Do you disagree with that? Because if so, I need you to explain to me how it is that coming down with the flu after getting the shot is evidence when it happens to study participants but not when it happens to an individual of your acquaintance? My contention is that it is evidence in both cases, but the quality and reliability of the conclusions that can be drawn from the evidence is quite different. Hmmm. Is that what you’ve been trying to say? I would agree that it isn’t so much the quality of the evidence as it is the quality of the conclusions you can draw from the evidence.
No, I don’t think is the same as seeing red. That merely provides a useful analogy for some aspects of it. You talk about confirming one’s conclusion that the color red is correct. How do you do that? We do that by getting concurrence from other people who can tell red from green. We learn, from childhood, that a particular sensory experience is called ‘red’. I think that people are similarly taught what spiritual experiences are and how to label them in concordance with other people’s experiences.
Do you feel that I am incorrectly saying that the person’s belief that they got the flu from the flu shot is evidence that they did? Because that is not what I am saying. I’m saying that the timing of the person’s illness is evidence in support of their conclusion. It doesn’t make it a correct conclusion; we agree on that aspect.
When a person believes that god exists because they have experienced god’s presence in their life, I think that is evidence of god existance in the same way that the person getting the flu is evidence that the vaccination made them sick. It isn’t proof, but it is supporting evidence.
When you say that people’s experiences are not evidence because they are incorrectly interpreting their experience, well that seems analogous to saying the person who got the flu vaccination is incorrect in thinking they were ill and therefore, it isn’t evidence that the flu shot made them ill because they weren’t actually ill at all.
I can't believe I still have hope you will understand. You probably think I will come around to your understanding as well and I know I won't because I recognize the error you are making. I do, however, think we are closer to understanding where each other is coming from. So let me try to meet you half way.
You said in regards to the flu shot/illness example,
"I’m saying that the timing of the person’s illness is evidence in support of their conclusion.".
We both have no trouble seeing the symptoms are evidence. I also agree the timing of the symptoms is evidence. I don't disagree with that at all. And the timing could easily lead someone to the wrong conclusion the flu shot caused the illness.
But here's the catch.
Regardless of the person's conclusion about what the evidence supported, the evidence didn't really support that conclusion. And I completely agree, the timing was evidence
to that person. And it supported
that person's belief.
What you are missing here is that
the person's conclusion does not change reality. Either the vaccine caused the illness or it didn't regardless of the conclusions anyone draws. The thing we have to do is determine the correct conclusion. And that person drawing the incorrect conclusion gets us no closer to the right conclusion. Their false conclusion was not evidence. And it especially was not evidence their conclusion was correct.
I don't have to conduct a rigorous scientific study to correctly conclude that a person drawing an incorrect conclusion is not evidence. I already know from overwhelming rigorous scientific research that people draw false conclusions from personal experiences. It is ubiquitously common.
So we are not so far apart as you might think. (I am hopeful, anyway.) The person's wrong conclusion, based on real evidence, did not make it any more real that the flu shot caused the symptoms.
By the same token,
the person's conclusion about whatever thing they experience(d) which leads(led) them to believe god(s) exist
does not change the reality of whether or not gods exist. So we have to determine if whatever it is the person has experienced is evidence for the actual existence of god(s). In doing so, we already know from overwhelming evidence, regardless of what a person believes an experience means, they are just as likely to be wrong as they are to be right. (One may be more likely to be correct about what color one sees, but less likely to interpret correctly a whole slew of other things.)
You are correct that the experience a believer has is convincing to
that person. But you are incorrect to think that because a person has drawn a conclusion about the significance of their experience, the conclusion they have drawn is actually evidence.
In the case of the flu shot, the symptoms were evidence and the timing was evidence. The individual drew the wrong conclusion from the evidence. And they were indeed using what we define as evidence to draw their conclusion. But the conclusion they drew was not evidence.
So if all you are saying is the evidence which convinces
an individual that gods exist is enough to draw a valid conclusion as far as
that individual is concerned, we agree. But the fact they had an experience, regardless of what they believe it was, does not change reality. And we know from good scientific data, the individual's conclusions about what an experience really was is not by itself a reliable conclusion. We are still left with, the experience is evidence, the conclusion is not.
When a person believes that god exists because they have experienced god’s presence in their life, I think that is evidence of god existance in the same way that the person getting the flu is evidence that the vaccination made them sick. It isn’t proof, but it is supporting evidence.
Both of these are examples of evidence an individual interprets. Yes, the illness, the timing and the experience (whatever it was) are all evidence. The interpretation that the flu shot caused the illness and the interpretation the experience was because a an actual god created the experience, remain as interpretations of the evidence, not the evidence.