Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[gumboot]

This is bizarre. Israel must be the only nation in the history of human warfare that is expected to maintain an open border, and to provide humanitarian relief, to a neighboring state with which it is at war.

Palestine and Israel are at war. They have been at war for quite some time. Someone please cite for me which particular law of armed conflict requires a belligerent to maintain an open border with an opposing belligerent.

Absurd. Completely absurd.

 

[gumboot]

And how dare you too.....
Give your "fellow countrymen" full rights (same as a Jewish citizen) then you may be in a situation to talk about respect.

Could you summarise for me what specific rights are withheld from non-Jewish Israelis by their government? Thanks in advance.

(Anyone else can offer up some details if they like as well.)

 

[WildCat]

Absurd. Completely absurd.

Yes, it is... no one complained about "collective punishment" of the Germans during WWII for some reason.

 

[The Fool]

Could you summarise for me what specific rights are withheld from non-Jewish Israelis by their government? Thanks in advance.

(Anyone else can offer up some details if they like as well.)

I encourage you to use the search facilities on this website or the WWW (I suggest google) to familiarise yourself with all the law and regulation in israel that is specific to or applied differently to Jews or non-Jews. We have been through this soooooooo many times before. Are you really in denial about this? Every other time we have gone through the "name them" game the facts are established but then the goalpoasts shift to if the differences are understandable or trivial or whatever...


The place is known as the home of the JEWS not the home of the CITIZENS. Of course Jews have a special status...what else do you expect?



ETA....on reflection I apologise, its rude to say "go look for it yourself" Try starting here at the US department of state.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78854.htm

"Institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Israeli Arabs continued. Non-Orthodox Jews and other religious groups continued to face discrimination in personal and civil status matters. Women suffered discrimination and, in some cases, violence. The educational systems for Arab and Jewish students remained unequal."

 

[The Fool]

This is bizarre. Israel must be the only nation in the history of human warfare that is expected to maintain an open border, and to provide humanitarian relief, to a neighboring state with which it is at war.

Palestine and Israel are at war. They have been at war for quite some time. Someone please cite for me which particular law of armed conflict requires a belligerent to maintain an open border with an opposing belligerent.

Absurd. Completely absurd.

you appear to have proclaimed the state of Palestine gumboot..... You are absolutely correct about the not having to have open borders with an enemy state bit...but.... you can't just personally award Gaza statehood for the sake of this thread.

 

[The Fool]

Yes, it is... no one complained about "collective punishment" of the Germans during WWII for some reason.

Germany was an "Occupied territory" of the allies??? How about we try to massage this comparison a bit to make it work...After the occupation of Germany if some individual groups of Germans had continued fighting a geurilla war.....would it have been acceptable to blockade the civilian population?

 

[yairhol]

You hit the nail right on the head: If my government was responsible for my poverty and miserable life style, I would definately do something about them. And fact of the matter is that in the occupied territories, the Israeli government is still the responsible government.

ddt, you are just playing dumb now and you know it. Your words are populist at best and dumb otherwise. The Palestinians had their own elections to choose their president and their controlling government. Or is Abbas also not the president of the Palestinians since Peres is the president of Israel. Right.....(in an Austin Powers style). If your words were true then all the Palestinians should be in prison by now since they don't pay for electricity, water, communication facilities and taxes. Israel is providing them all of these free of charge (those Israeli bastards).

Originally Posted by ddt
Hamas? That's a nice twist. Most of the ambulance incidents we were discussing happened (not) on the West Bank. I don't think Hamas had much involvement there. Specifically, the one shown in the videoclip was said to be a member of Tanzim, a Fatah offshoot.

Your quote should have explained to you the situation we have here. You're not sure if the Hamas has or has not involvement in this or that part of the territories. The ambulances have or have not explosives in them. The Fatah/Tanzim is maybe/maybe not allied with the Hamas (at least some branches of it).

I thought that Abbas and his Fatah movement were such amicable people. You just said so the day before yesterday, when you tried to put us in the position of Israeli PM.

Again the playing dumb part and twisting of truth. I talked about Abbas being a person who at least seems to want to resolve the situation here and not only in a one-sided manner. But how many times have we heard about people of the Fatah helping terrorists to collect or smuggle weapons.
That's why EVERYONE should be checked at all checkpoints. Thanks for helping me get this point across so nicely.

Originally Posted by yairhol
But you keep insisting that Israeli lives should be put on the line and Ambulances should not be checked thoroughly. that's absurd on your part and you should start thinking about how would you act if your children's lives were put on the line day after day, hour after hour while some people who do not live this reality tell you to stop checking cars/Ambulances/old women/children/whatever who is a potential suicide bomber. Are you starting to understand the reality that is happening here regarding this point?

Still refusing to answer this question? why? and don't give me the IRA situation as an excuse. It is not part of this thread. Now answer about the American soldiers being in the same situation in Iraq. And say your answer out loud so that all other Americans on this forum can hear how you would like to endanger them.

 

[The Fool]

ddt, you are just playing dumb now and you know it. Your words are populist at best and dumb otherwise. The Palestinians had their own elections to choose their president and their controlling government. Or is Abbas also not the president of the Palestinians since Peres is the president of Israel. Right.....(in an Austin Powers style). If your words were true then all the Palestinians should be in prison by now since they don't pay for electricity, water, communication facilities and taxes. Israel is providing them all of these free of charge (those Israeli bastards).

cry me a river Yairhol.....why did you stay after 67? It was your choice to stay. If you had turned around and gone home you would not have these responsibilities towards the people that are in the occupied territories that you chose to stay on.....I can understand how it happened...all that land, maybe the Arabs will leave or can be shifted.....all that land,all that water....hard to let go of...the poison chalice.

That's why EVERYONE should be checked at all checkpoints. Thanks for helping me get this point across so nicely.

You want to inspect every single one with a robot? I doubt it. Riddle me this...If you have the power to search every single viehicle why don't you? Why are you subjecting your own people to such peril? Why not search everyone and everything.....can I suggest an answer? Its impractical and the consequences would be complete shutdown of Palestinian commerce....The americans would quietly suggest you stop bringing movement to a grinding halt....Its completely impractical to thoroughly search everyone on all your many many checkpoints..Stick to checkpoints on your own borders.

 

[yairhol]

You want to inspect every single one with a robot? I doubt it.

When was the last time you were present at those checkpoints? oh that's right, you were never there. When I say check everyone I mean that it's o.k. to check everyone we think should be checked, be it Ambulances, old ladies, children, private cars or donkeys. Everyone is subject to be checked if the IDF wishes to do so. Weather we actually check everyone or not, leave that to us thank you. And Weather we do it with a robot or personally, leave that to us also thank you.

cry me a river Yairhol.....why did you stay after 67?

Is it really so strange for you to understand that wars have geographical consequences? Who started the war in '67? psst, hint: The arab countries bordering with Israel.
and while we're at it, who started the '48 war? right, also the Arab countries. And what about '73? right again, the Arab countries.
Israel recognizes the Palestinian's right to a state but do the Palestinian authorities recognize Israel's rights? Ask Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of the Hamas which has continued refusal to recognize the state of Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

and while we're at it, who started the '48 war? right, also the Arab countries. And what about '73? right again, the Arab countries.

Once again we have the concept of "The Arabs". It is about as useful as talking about "The Jews".

 

[yairhol]

Once again we have the concept of "The Arabs". It is about as useful as talking about "The Jews".

Wrong. A Jew is of Judaism religion. Someone who is an Arab, it is not yet clear to which religion he belongs to.
Having said

The arab countries bordering with Israel

in my previous post and then adding

and while we're at it, who started the '48 war? right, also the Arab countries. And what about '73? right again, the Arab countries.

I'm sure you can tell that I was referring to Arab countries bordering with Israel.

 

[The Fool]

When was the last time you were present at those checkpoints? oh that's right, you were never there.

Hey, this has been tried here before....you could open every post with it and its not going to add to your authority. When I want to patronise someone I prefer to just call them "son" I don't remember it ever achieving anything except probably make me look like a prat.....

When I say check everyone I mean that it's o.k. to check everyone we think should be checked, be it Ambulances, old ladies, children, private cars or donkeys. Everyone is subject to be checked if the IDF wishes to do so. Weather we actually check everyone or not, leave that to us thank you. And Weather we do it with a robot or personally, leave that to us also thank you.

So if you say you should be able to check anyone thats what I assume you mean....However, if you say you should check everyone what am I to assume. Hmmmmm, he said he thinks everyone should be checked so obviously he means everyone need not be checked?



I asked you why you stayed in the occupied territories after 67, this is your response.

Is it really so strange for you to understand that wars have geographical consequences? Who started the war in '67? psst, hint: The arab countries bordering with Israel.
and while we're at it, who started the '48 war? right, also the Arab countries. And what about '73? right again, the Arab countries.
Israel recognizes the Palestinian's right to a state but do the Palestinian authorities recognize Israel's rights? Ask Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of the Hamas which has continued refusal to recognize the state of Israel.

you didn't start the 67 war? you certainly fired the first shots didn't you....but I know....I know....you had no choice, the provocation was unbearable. Someone would have attacked you if you had not attacked first. And you won....yes you won.
Yairhol, I know that you could stay but I asked why....you certainly didn't have to, nabody at the time could stop you. So why did you stay? Is your answer really going to be because we could.

 

[FireGarden]

Perhaps you would like to discuss the context of that well-worn propaganda pic for us. I'm sure the Israelis in the forum could explain why it's deceptive to post it on its own without regard for context.

It's a famous picture of Israeli children writing messages on bombs which were to dropped on Lebanon. You, no doubt, think that the war was just. But, either way, the picture shows children writing messages on bombs.

I wonder if you would classify those children as human shields? What business did they have near weapons during a time of war?

 

[FireGarden]

...we do not have an educational system that vilifies or demonizes "the palestinians" -- so take your BS and go peddle it elsewhere, OK?

Uri Avnery disagrees with you:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1174777631/

It all began with the observation that Palestinian school books don't show the green line.

WELL, WHAT about our side? What do our schoolbooks look like?

Does the Green Line appear in them? Do they recognize the right of the Palestinians to establish a state on the other side of our 1967 borders? Do they teach love for the Palestinian people (or even the existence of the Palestinian people), or respect for the Arabs in general, or a knowledge of Islam?

The answer to all these questions: Absolutely not!

Recently, Minister of Education Yuli Tamir came out with a bombastic announcement saying that she intends to mark the Green Line in the schoolbooks, from which it was removed almost 40 years ago. The Right reacted angrily, and nothing more was heard about it.

From kindergarten to the last day of high school, the Israeli pupil does not learn that the Arabs have any right at all to any of this land. On the contrary, it is clear that the land belongs to us alone, that God has personally given it to us, that we were indeed driven out by the Romans after the destruction of our Temple in the year 70 (a myth) but that we returned at the beginning of the Zionist movement. Since then, the Arabs have tried again and again to annihilate us, as the Goyim have done in every generation. In 1936, the "gangs" (the official Israeli term for the fighters of the Arab Revolt) attacked and murdered us. And so on, up to this very day.

When he comes out of the pedagogic mill, the Jewish-Israeli pupil "knows" that the Arabs are a primitive people with a murderous religion and a miserable culture. He brings this view with him when he (or she) joins the army a few weeks later. There, it is reinforced almost automatically. The daily humiliation of old people and women - not to mention everybody else - at the checkpoints would not be possible otherwise.

 

[FireGarden]

This is bizarre. Israel must be the only nation in the history of human warfare that is expected to maintain an open border, and to provide humanitarian relief, to a neighboring state with which it is at war.

Which neighbouring state is that?
Israel is responsible for the Palestinians because Israel set things up so that the Palestinians depend on Israel for things like clean water, electricity and access to the rest of the world.

It was best said on the Gush Shalom website:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/press_releases/1190230043/

“The inhabitants of the Gaza Strip are completely dependent on Israel for their most basic livelihood. This complete dependence was created, consciously and deliberately, by all governments of Israel since 1967. The state of Israel cannot now just shrug off its responsibility for the fate of the inhabitants of Gaza.”

In fact, some Israeli politicians are talking of handing over those responsibilities to Egypt now. Finally ending Israel's occupation of Gaza -- the pullout from Gaza did no such thing because Israel maintained full control of the territory it left.

Unless Egypt agrees, or the Palestinians are given a viable state, Israel will remain responsible for the Palestinian population.

you appear to have proclaimed the state of Palestine gumboot.....

But can he make it stick?

 

[Nogbad]

Wrong. A Jew is of Judaism religion. Someone who is an Arab, it is not yet clear to which religion he belongs to.
Having said in my previous post and then adding I'm sure you can tell that I was referring to Arab countries bordering with Israel.

It is certainly true that 48 and 73 were started by, primarily, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. However, 57 and 67 are much less clear cut and the general view is that that Egypt and Syria were not the aggressors - they were just being very annoying.

The underlying dispute is not about ideology or religion but land. Regardless of who was promised what or who had a more legitimate claim, a dispute will always arise when two people believe they own the same thing. The Native Americans were not overly impressed by the white settlers claiming their land and being shunted into reservations. Sometimes the settlers were the aggressors sometimes the Native Americans - but the dispute was always over land. Pithy comments about one side or the other losing their right to make a claim are not going to cut much ice with the respective advocates.

The ME conflict is unlikely to be resolved any time in the near future because a satisfactory resolution to both parties' claims has not been tabled. Even if the Palestinians were to agree the 1967 borders there are now too many Israelis living on the wrong side of that border for such an agreement to be politically viable in Israel. The Palestinians have no motivation to settle the dispute because they have too little that is worth worrying about losing. Once there was a reasonable modicum of value in what they have the majority would view the actions of the lunatic fringe with more hostility (there will always be a lunatic fringe of course).

 

[webfusion]

Hmmmm, T-F is on a roll, I almost hesitate to interject some points of reality to his narrative:

The place is known as the home of the JEWS not the home of the CITIZENS.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm
(Israel) will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Lofty goals, to be sure. None of our neighbors can even point to anything even remotely similar. Yet, Israel is singled-out for daring to stand firm on "the right of the Jewish people to establish their State"

Give your "fellow countrymen" full rights (same as a Jewish citizen)

Oh, you mean like the rights to live anywhere they wish, the rights to serve in any political capacity, the rights to vote, the rights to work and travel and enter everyplace in the country? Look, T-F, let's not revisit this argument. Israel is not like Australia. We have unique social problems and security issues, and we do the best we can under the circumstances; it's not ideal, it's not perfect, but if we had some cooperation and participation of our neighbors then we may be in a different position today vis-a-vis our non-jewish citizens (and even in a better position regarding gaza and the west bank).

You tell me to "stop chest-thumping" and I tell you -- make your voice heard for the palestinians to stop their terrorism.

(By the way, guess who is opposing the first-ever UN resolution that condemns rockets & terror against Israel? What a surprise, LIBYA! http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/948228.html )

 

[webfusion]

I just had to smile at this gem:

Israel set things up... (gaza)

Dude, do you have a map handy? Here, let me assist you with a basic geography lesson:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/gaza_strip_may_2005.jpg
(LINK TO GOOGLE-EARTH PHOTO)

 

[webfusion]

Nogbad:

The underlying dispute is not about ideology or religion but land.

Strongly disagree.

Nogbad again:

However, 57 and 67 are much less clear cut and the general view is that that Egypt and Syria were not the aggressors.

Strongly disagree again.

 

[WildCat]

Germany was an "Occupied territory" of the allies??? How about we try to massage this comparison a bit to make it work...After the occupation of Germany if some individual groups of Germans had continued fighting a geurilla war.....would it have been acceptable to blockade the civilian population?

You forgot the part where Germans elected a government that vowed to destroy the US in your "what if" scenario, and then proceeded to try to do just that. In which case, yes, the war would have been fought all over again.

And the Soviets did in fact blockade West Berlin after WWII (from June 1948 until May 1949), necessitating the Berlin Airlift. And no one in Berlin was even shooting at the Soviets! I have no idea whether or not the world's leftists protested the Soviet blockade.