Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[JoeEllison]

Those Muslims all look the same to me, anyway. Or is it Arabs? I forget now.

Yeah, and they are universally evil and undeserving of the rights we give to "real" people... isn't that what some people here are saying?

 

[yairhol]

I think you meant one-state solution in that quote.

Oh dear, I did mean one-state solution.
Thanks for noticing.

 

[yairhol]

1. mrbaracuda shows a clip of an ambulance at a checkpoint where explosives are found.
2. I state, citing a B'tselem report, that this incident is the only one the IDF could provide evidence of to them, after a string of allegations of the IDF

So if that's true (I didn't check myself if that is the only case but that is not important) should Israel let all ambulances now drive around freely with no checking of their contents?
Let me change the scenery now and put those same ambulances in Iraq around American soldiers. Do you think those soldiers would let the ambulances go freely wherever they wanted to? Would they let the Ambulances around their forces without checking them first if they had even only 1 known incident of explosives in an ambulance?
I think not.
Let's change the scenery again to somewhere around your house and your children. Would you let those ambulances there? and please be honest...

 

[ddt]

So if that's true (I didn't check myself if that is the only case but that is not important) should Israel let all ambulances now drive around freely with no checking of their contents?

Please do check my sources. Do read both reports. And do report then here that I didn't twist the contents of those reports.

As to the ambulances, there should be the presumption of innocence. The IDF has violated this principle. They have instituted this checking policy on basis of a string of alleged smuggling incidents they couldn't prove; they're lying bastards. They haven't even lived up to their own rules, which state that the call to let an ambulance pass should be made by a soldier with some medical qualification to judge the emergency of the matter. Furthermore, the number of checkpoints needed to pass should then be reduced. Note that the ambulance in the filmed case passed the third or fourth checkpoint on its way from Ramallah to Jerusalem, a route of 10-15 km - all due to the "swiss cheese" policy.

See here for a list of people that died due to delay in receiving medical treatment.

So I think the security aspect should only be secondary to the humanitarian aspect.

Let's change the scenery again to somewhere around your house and your children. Would you let those ambulances there? and please be honest...

What about you first answering my question:

Then you don't have objection to my comparison of Hamas with the IRA?

Then I'll get back to yours. Promise.

BTW, please disregard the snippets below from that post; they were based on your typo on one/two-state solution:

So you say, Israel should annex Gaza and the West Bank? And what are you going to do then with the population? [...]

This post of yours makes me wonder: why did you ask at all for a solution to the Qassam missile problem? You have it sorted out for yourselves anyway.

 

[yairhol]

See here for a list of people that died due to delay in receiving medical treatment.

blame the Hamas and their terrorist allies for that. Not the IDF. Blaming the IDF is twisting reality.

What about you first answering my question:

Originally Posted by ddt
Then you don't have objection to my comparison of Hamas with the IRA?

Then I'll get back to yours. Promise.

I don't presume to know enough about the IRA or the history between Ireland and Britain to comment on that and I usually don't take sides in arguments I don't know enough about.

 

[yairhol]

double post deleted

 

[ddt]

blame the Hamas and their terrorist allies for that. Not the IDF. Blaming the IDF is twisting reality.

Hamas? That's a nice twist. Most of the ambulance incidents we were discussing happened (not) on the West Bank. I don't think Hamas had much involvement there. Specifically, the one shown in the videoclip was said to be a member of Tanzim, a Fatah offshoot.

I don't presume to know enough about the IRA or the history between Ireland and Britain to comment on that and I usually don't take sides in arguments I don't know enough about.

You started by arguing blanketly "don't talk with terrorists". Now there's no denying that the IRA were/are terrorists. Hell, they even tried to blow up the whole Tory top in a Brighton hotel.

There is a comparison with the P/I situation: the indigenous Catholic Irish population in Northern Ireland is repressed by the richer Protestant British settlers who came and conquered their land.

Blair did talk with the IRA. He got them to a ceasefire, the Good Friday accord, and now the IRA (eh, Sinn Fein) and the protestant hardliners form a coalition government together.

Now, give me a sound reason why Blair did talk with the IRA, and why Olmert should not talk with Hamas.

I consider your "don't know enough" to be sidestepping the issue, and thus not answering the question.

 

[a_unique_person]

blame the Hamas and their terrorist allies for that. Not the IDF. Blaming the IDF is twisting reality.

The title of this topic tells us what the reality is.

I don't presume to know enough about the IRA or the history between Ireland and Britain to comment on that and I usually don't take sides in arguments I don't know enough about.

If you want to understand this better, maybe you should read up on it.

 

[HereticHulk]

Humanitarian aid? You mean like the SUGAR which was destined for gaza but at the IDF checkpoint, it was discovered that the shipment contained 6.5 tons of smuggled Potassium Nitrate, which is a precursor to rocket propellant?

Here's the deal --- If the world wants more aid to flow into gaza, they need to FIRST demand that Hamas halt the rocket fire. Where is the UN demand for a cease-fire of rocketing against Israeli towns?
What? Did I hear someone at the UN give yet another expression of their ""deep concern" about those rockets?

Screw that.

All of gaza is under blockade. It is enemy territory. Yes, let them walk.

I would expect any human with a desire to live, to fight back any way that they could. How would you react if your people were slowing getting starved out and made to live in squalor?

 

[yairhol]

I would expect any human with a desire to live, to fight back any way that they could. How would you react if your people were slowing getting starved out and made to live in squalor?

If my government was responsible for my poverty and miserable life style, I would definately do something about them. The Palestinian government is fully responsible and is to blam for the way their citizens are living. This was already discussed earlier by someone else (maybe webfusion) and I support that fully.

I consider your "don't know enough" to be sidestepping the issue, and thus not answering the question

You can consider whatever you want but the fact remains as I said earlier.

Hamas? That's a nice twist. Most of the ambulance incidents we were discussing happened (not) on the West Bank. I don't think Hamas had much involvement there. Specifically, the one shown in the videoclip was said to be a member of Tanzim, a Fatah offshoot.

Your quote should have explained to you the situation we have here. You're not sure if the Hamas has or has not involvement in this or that part of the territories. The ambulances have or have not explosives in them. The Fatah/Tanzim is maybe/maybe not allied with the Hamas (at least some branches of it). But you keep insisting that Israeli lives should be put on the line and Ambulances should not be checked thoroughly. that's absurd on your part and you should start thinking about how would you act if your children's lives were put on the line day after day, hour after hour while some people who do not live this reality tell you to stop checking cars/Ambulances/old women/children/whatever who is a potential suicide bomber. Are you starting to understand the reality that is happening here regarding this point?

 

[ddt]

I would expect any human with a desire to live, to fight back any way that they could. How would you react if your people were slowing getting starved out and made to live in squalor?

If my government was responsible for my poverty and miserable life style, I would definately do something about them. The Palestinian government is fully responsible and is to blam for the way their citizens are living. This was already discussed earlier by someone else (maybe webfusion) and I support that fully.

You hit the nail right on the head: If my government was responsible for my poverty and miserable life style, I would definately do something about them. And fact of the matter is that in the occupied territories, the Israeli government is still the responsible government. There is no Palestinian state, therefore no Palestinian government. The PA administration is dependent on Israeli benevolence for pretty much anything to be effective. For starters, for their income, because Israel receives the taxes that are due for the PA, and Israel froze them when Hamas won the election.

I consider your "don't know enough" to be sidestepping the issue, and thus not answering the question.

You can consider whatever you want but the fact remains as I said earlier.

Hamas? That's a nice twist. Most of the ambulance incidents we were discussing happened (not) on the West Bank. I don't think Hamas had much involvement there. Specifically, the one shown in the videoclip was said to be a member of Tanzim, a Fatah offshoot.

Your quote should have explained to you the situation we have here. You're not sure if the Hamas has or has not involvement in this or that part of the territories. The ambulances have or have not explosives in them. The Fatah/Tanzim is maybe/maybe not allied with the Hamas (at least some branches of it).

I thought that Abbas and his Fatah movement were such amicable people. You just said so the day before yesterday, when you tried to put us in the position of Israeli PM.

But you keep insisting that Israeli lives should be put on the line and Ambulances should not be checked thoroughly. that's absurd on your part and you should start thinking about how would you act if your children's lives were put on the line day after day, hour after hour while some people who do not live this reality tell you to stop checking cars/Ambulances/old women/children/whatever who is a potential suicide bomber. Are you starting to understand the reality that is happening here regarding this point?

You're trying to get a reaction out of me, yet you refuse yourself to stand up to your position on negotiating with terrorists. I don't play along with that. First your reaction to the IRA question - and this time with real content - and then I'll give you a reaction to this.

 

[ddt]

This is a culture that worships death and lives only for jihad

Whereas the Israeli Jews raise their children to strive to live in peace with their Arab neighbors? Then here's a pretty picture for you too:

 

[ddt]

To add on the topic how Israelis are raised in their attitude towards Palestinians, here a couple of snippets from an interview with Jasmine Avissar, an Israeli woman who fell in love with a Palestinian. The interview is here:

JASMINE AVISSAR: The hardest thing was to deal every day with the soldiers and the checkpoints, and to see my own people abusing other people every day for years and years frustrated me a lot, especially because of the fact they could not do anything about it.

It was like looking in a mirror and seeing a very, very ugly face.

Jasmine believes she's had harsh treatment because she's regarded as a dangerous person.

JASMINE AVISSAR: The main policy of the Israeli Government is of segregation and separation. Soldiers are being brainwashed in the army to think that the Palestinians are murderous people and whenever they see a Jew they want to kill us and et cetera, et cetera.

And of course, soldiers see me every day in checkpoints going in and out from Ramallah safe and happy and unharmed, of course challenged all these agendas and policies. In that sense, I am a very dangerous person in Israel because I meet the other side, I am alive and I prove them wrong.

How many Israelis do know what's going on in the occupied territories? How many Jerusalem Israelis know what's going on ten kilometers away in Bethlehem or in Ramallah? How many have ever seen what a checkpoint is, or a roadblock?

 

[Bud Fox]

Whereas the Israeli Jews raise their children to strive to live in peace with their Arab neighbors? Then here's a pretty picture for you too:
[qimg]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7945/israeligirlgift01580x435lq8.jpg[/qimg]

Perhaps you would like to discuss the context of that well-worn propaganda pic for us. I'm sure the Israelis in the forum could explain why it's deceptive to post it on its own without regard for context.

How many Israelis do know what's going on in the occupied territories? How many Jerusalem Israelis know what's going on ten kilometers away in Bethlehem or in Ramallah? How many have ever seen what a checkpoint is, or a roadblock?

There are a number of Israelis here who have mentioned their service in the army. My guess is that they know plenty about what goes on, but I'm sure they can speak for themselves.

 

[WildCat]

Whereas the Israeli Jews raise their children to strive to live in peace with their Arab neighbors? Then here's a pretty picture for you too:

And the context of that picture is...?

There's no doubt that the Palestinians are raising their children to be martyrs. It's well-documented, here's a video from the BBC:



And then...


And...


And...


You get the picture yet ddt? I could post hundreds of similar videos. It's a culture of death, plain and simple.

 

[webfusion]

hey ddt, at the risk of being censured by the moderators here -- I have to say that you're starting to get on my nerves.
Are you sure you want to keep posting stuff here like you've been doing, just to see if you can get some reactions?

I can't even keep up with the profusion of errors, the mis-statements, and the outright lies that have been flowing from your computer. You have decided to go ahead full-bore and inundate this forum with more garbage than we can shovel away on a case-by-case basis.

Not sure what your major malfunction is, but I'll reply to just one thing and then step away before I get in trouble with the JREF powers-that-be:
---

(about the) topic how Israelis are raised in their attitude towards Palestinians...

How dare you.
Over a million-1/2 of our fellow countrymen/women are palestinians. We respect their culture, we have no problem whatsoever with their religions (be they Bahai, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans, Moslems, Christians, Copts, whatever...) , and we do not have an educational system that vilifies or demonizes "the palestinians" -- so take your BS and go peddle it elsewhere, OK?

 

[webfusion]

I would expect any human with a desire to live, to fight back any way that they could. How would you react if your people were slowing getting starved out and made to live in squalor?

This makes no sense.

If they want to have a better life, with an International Airport, a flourishing tourism industry, a high-speed rail link to Hebron/Jerusalem, a deep-water port , and all the other trappings of "la vida buena", what do these humans need to do? Fight for it? Nope. All they need to do is sit down with the jews and sort it all out around a table, in a peace conference. It's really quite simple. In fact, it's so simple, it amazes me that the palestinian leaders have managed to avoid doing so, time and again, while allowing the thugs, the violent radicals, and the maniacs run rampant and 'eff it all up for them (See: Oasis Casino, Jericho).

The 'squalor' of gaza is legendary, and it's been that way for a long time, in fact, wayyyyy before Israel even came into existence in 1947-49.
Prior to that, they were just Egyptians living in their gazan squalor!

 

[The Fool]

hey ddt, at the risk of being censured by the moderators here -- I have to say that you're starting to get on my nerves.
Are you sure you want to keep posting stuff here like you've been doing, just to see if you can get some reactions?

I can't even keep up with the profusion of errors, the mis-statements, and the outright lies that have been flowing from your computer. You have decided to go ahead full-bore and inundate this forum with more garbage than we can shovel away on a case-by-case basis.

Not sure what your major malfunction is, but I'll reply to just one thing and then step away before I get in trouble with the JREF powers-that-be:
---


How dare you.
Over a million-1/2 of our fellow countrymen/women are palestinians. We respect their culture, we have no problem whatsoever with their religions (be they Bahai, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans, Moslems, Christians, Copts, whatever...) , and we do not have an educational system that vilifies or demonizes "the palestinians" -- so take your BS and go peddle it elsewhere, OK?

Rather cheap attempt to bully away opposing viewpoints there web. Not the done thing on a skeptic forum.

 

[The Fool]

How dare you.
Over a million-1/2 of our fellow countrymen/women are palestinians. We respect their culture, we have no problem whatsoever with their religions (be they Bahai, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans, Moslems, Christians, Copts, whatever...) , and we do not have an educational system that vilifies or demonizes "the palestinians" -- so take your BS and go peddle it elsewhere, OK?

And how dare you too.....
Give your "fellow countrymen" full rights (same as a Jewish citizen) then you may be in a situation to talk about respect.

 

[a_unique_person]

And the context of that picture is...?

There's no doubt that the Palestinians are raising their children to be martyrs. It's well-documented, here's a video from the BBC:

You get the picture yet ddt? I could post hundreds of similar videos. It's a culture of death, plain and simple.

I believed that if Israel remained in permanent occupation of the West Bank and Gaza it would eventually be forced to decide whether or not to grant these Palestinians basic political rights. Enfranchising the Palestinians would, on demographic grounds, destroy the Jewish nature of the Israeli state. It would, therefore, not occur. The logic of permanent occupation was permanent oppression. In turn this would lead to an Algerian-style resistance movement; to the gradual poisoning of the then still relatively benign relationship between the Jewish majority and the Arab minority in Israel; and to Israel coming to be seen in the eyes of the world as a neo-colonial regime, as the moral-political equivalent of apartheid South Africa.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rober...e-of-occupation/2004/12/05/1102182152001.html

When you put a person under severe stress, what will the outcome be? There are several alternatives, he could become a Nelson Mandela, he could become angry and violent, he could become depressed and submissive, there are many alternatives. You put a person under severe stress, and the basic person has to change, usually for the worse.

The various nations under occupation by the USSR also responded in various ways. Some maintained a strong society, able to withstand the times, others became highly dysfunctional. So it is with the Palestinians, what is happening to them?

The occupation is cracking up a society, and, as Manne points out in his article, the the affects on Israel are not going to be good either.