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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Wow, upon reading the ostrich-like reactions to that post, I nearly broke my vow to never bother posting at the BFF. It's astonishing how close-minded the Pattyphiles are about the blatant and obvious signs of a hoax.

It would be easier to take if the BFF was uniformly this gullible. They're not. In fact, they rip apart every new claim with a refreshing gusto. But the PGF? Hands off.

It's just so sad.

Avindair
Here's sad for you ..

Roger Knights once argued that you couldn't call the ~25 feet of Patty footage ' edited ',
because he had googled up a definition of film editing that described it as cutting and splicing ...

So much for that argument ..
 
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BFF Damage Control: We have re-evaluated the flipped scenes and apparent edits and have come to the conclusion that Patty is not a man in a suit.
 
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That's quite a meltdown there.

Avindair is right, imo.

It's pretty odd that they seem to do an excellent job of evaluating purported photos or films, except for one film.

That one has the dogs of war guarding it.
 
Paul and Melissa don't seem to be.......um......hmmm, how do I put this in a fairly diplomatic way? Never mind, I'll just get in trouble again.
 
Sgoodman,

At a skeptics forum, evidence (of the reliable type) rules. Speculation has its place, but we like it well-backed by reliable evidence. You presented the reason why you, as you said, believe. I have no problems with personal beliefs in this case. However, when you present them at a forum where critical thinking is encouraged, you submit them for evaluation and critics. The critics will be focused, in this case, on the poor quality of the evidence available to back the reasonings you presented. And the critics must aim at the arguments, and not at the arguer. So, please note the following is direct at your reasonings, not at you.

This put, please allow me to -once again- expose some flaws in the "out-of-Asia" speculation.
At
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2216728&postcount=130
You will find a quick review of the best candidates for a bigfoot ancestral (assuming bigfeet are real).
First of all, none of them match the requirements. Species from the Gigantopithecus genus are know from Southern Asia. Its species were not exactly adapted to cold weather. Southern Asia and North America had different vegetation and climate zones during the Pleistocene. Note also that these giant apes would have to cross zones of tundra, steppe, temperate semi desert and dry grassland to reach the distribution inferred by sighting reports in North America.

So, when you write about these animals migrating from Asia to North America, you must understand that you presented nothing but a speculation, and a speculation not backed for evidence. This sort of thing can not be used to back a claim. At least not when one is using critical thinking. It might seem OK for you, but it’s not for others (myself included- at least for the current purposes).

Now, from this shaky start (bigfeet migrated from Asia), you make two other suppositions- the females evolved hairy breasts and the populations of animals that moved to warmer areas still retain this feature. I hope you can see that, once again, that despite the fact that the reasoning is logic for you, for other persons it is not, because it lacks good foundations.

OK, using the controversial Meganthropus or the "standard" Homo erectus might be slightly less problematic, since erectus had a pretty big and widespread distribution. But you still have no evidence that they came near the land bridge or that any of them looked like Patty. You could argue for the fact that the fossil register is incomplete, but hey, it’s a pretty weak argument.

Unfortunately there are other issues with the reasoning. You say bigfeet migrated at the same time humans migrated. This is, once again, nothing but baseless speculation. Why? Because there were a number of migration "waves" of different animals out of and in to Asia. can Check, for example, The Evolution of Cats; July 2007; Scientific American Magazine; by Stephen J. O'Brien and Warren E. Johnson to have an idea of how complex the mammal migrations were.

Even humans arrived to the Americas in at least two waves; you seem to be talking only about the latest one (historical European colonists apart)- the one that brought those who most likely were the ancestors of Native Americans- the Clovis people, but there were people living in North America before the Clovis. Check
http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/chapter54/text54.htm#luzia
http://www.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/first/kennewick.html

See the problems?
This is why, at least in my opinion, regardless on how appealing and attractive some suppositions might be, if they lack reliable evidences at their foundations, they must not be used to back a claim.
OK, for now its enough. This post is already too big for me to enter the sightings distributions and renderings issues...
 
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Meldrum has a newly-published scientific paper on the PGF tracks and casts. The entire foundation is based on the authenticity of the film. I wonder if the peer reviewers read JREF and BFF.

Would evidence of tampering with the film be a cause for forced or voluntary retraction of this paper?
 
I try to avoid talking about cross-forums stuff, but tis one...

I tend to consider BFF as a relatively skeptics-friendly environment, when compare with other fringe subjects forums (fora, whatever).

But hey! If calling Bob Gimlim a liar can get you in to trouble, why calling Bob Hieronimus a liar can not?
 
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Here's sad for you ..

Roger Knights once argued that you couldn't call the ~25 feet of Patty footage ' edited ',
because he had googled up a definition of film editing that described it as cutting and splicing ...

So much for that argument ..

YOW. "Hairs", meet "Splitting".

For the record, I did break my promise and post...and immediately rescinded my original comments. Seriously, what's the point? No one will ever change their minds. It's a waste of effort.

Avindair
 
Some moderator over there needs to step up and ask for an end to the fighting. Then say that everyone should focus on the cuts, splices and flipped scenes... and discuss what things mean like 'original film' and 'original copy', etc.
 
Meldrum has a newly-published scientific paper on the PGF tracks and casts. The entire foundation is based on the authenticity of the film. I wonder if the peer reviewers read JREF and BFF.

Would evidence of tampering with the film be a cause for forced or voluntary retraction of this paper?

Maybe we could write letters to the editor of whatever journal published his paper in order to point out the various problems...
 
Mommy, mommy!

Some moderator over there needs to step up and ask for an end to the fighting. Then say that everyone should focus on the cuts, splices and flipped scenes... and discuss what things mean like 'original film' and 'original copy', etc.

Well, it may not be Thunderdome over there, but it's more like "American Chopper". You'd better stand behind what you say.
 
I do think that people can stand behind the statement that the film was edited, and that important people who said it wasn't should have known better. Evidence of tampering was noticed years ago by some, but prominant pro-Patty folks are just not inclined to discuss it in public. They don't even want to discuss it a day after the visual evidence is presented.
 
Evidence of editing was noticed and written about by Cliff Crook years ago. He wouldn't be the only one. He saw Patty walk left (the flip) and then right. He actually thought it was two different takes combined and didn't suggest that the film had been reversed.

Scroll down to "THE AMAZING 1967 BLUFF CREEK FILM CLIP". This site also contains some weirdness from Cliff, who is a Bigfooter.

Cliff Crook said:
The observation: 1. Look at him go. 2. See How Small. 3. See the blur 4. Now see "The creature"/(Yakima Man in Suit) become much bigger and watch him move into timberline at left!. 5. No zoom was on camera. 7. Now see the "creature" move off into timberline at right. 7. Why did "the creature" take second walk across Bluff Creek sandbar? 8. This was seen on the original film clip, first copies and all unedited copies. 9. The answer to number 7 is WAKE UP! The film was edited. 10. A retake was done.

Fast forward to BFF in 2004.

BFF said:
MikeM: ...the author mentions something about the creature entering the timberline twice on opposite sides of the viewing area thereby showing that the creature was filmed twice (editted) and proving it as a hoax. Can anyone ellaborate on this....

Bipto: The film has never been shown to have been edited. To the best of my knowledge, Crook is the only one making this claim.

Now Dfoot posts the flipped scene and the crowd says nothing much about it.
 
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Bill Munns on BFF said:
I know you've mentioned the budget thing before, and I'm not trying to be evasive here. Just that so many specifics aren't deternimed so the number I'd give really is a rough ballpark estimate. But that's between $50,000 and $100,000, leading up to a full replication of figure, filming and analysis beside the PG film.

:eye-poppi
 
Some alternatives for the "roots" of sasquatch myths not involving North American apes unknown to science (snip)

Ah, I remember this list; great stuff. I'd like to suggest that hallucinations and misidentifications be added to the list.

If I interpret these myths as evidence for cryptohominids, I am seeing the myths under my biased googles, cherry picking the details that I feel "fit" with my interpretation. Note that when I present them to back a point against their use to back cryptohominids, I am also making an interpretation under my biased googles and cherry-picking details... Welcome to the slippery but fascinating world of myth interpretation!

Agreed. This was part of the reason I was so cautious in my wording about my "Bigfoot legends being sparked by carvings based on dinosaur tracks" idea.

At las but not least, AMM, the footprints you linked to and its likes seem to be the "evidence" used by historian to "prove" bigfeet walked among dinosaurs... Hoaxes and frauds, as if bigfootery needs some more of these...

Yep, those are the same tracks. I believe the ones that historian was championing as looking exactly like Bigfoot prints are actually smaller than human feet. This is part of the reason I suggested that carvings based on such tracks could've been enlarged due to design changes over the years.
 
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