Israel will allow fuel, medicine into Gaza - official

[webfusion]

I'm not exactly sure what point ddt is making ---- We are sure that the checkpoints of the IDF are effective in preventing bombings inside our cities. That is not in dispute.

Let's look at the recent breakthough of the border at Rafah. Israel built a barrier there, because there was rampant smuggling of weapons and explosives (the Philadelphi Zone). Right now, the palestinians are moving cash, weapons, & drugs --- it's a free-for-all.

The end result will be that Israel suffers attacks by heavier rockets (Katyushas). This is the exact scenario that Israel faced with Hezbollah, which was not prevented from accumulating a vast array of missiles. HAMAS is doing the same thing, and following the same road to perdition.

There will be hell to pay, in gaza, ultimately. I cannot see any other outcome.

 

[yairhol]

Unfortunately Israel is breaking the Geneva Conventions as an occupying force.

You mean those lands that belonged to the Arab countries but which they lost when trying to destroy Israel in '67? Well too bad. But you know what? Israel is willing to give them back. But asking for a peaceful neighbouring country at its borders and not a fanatic Islamic anti-Israeli country which will fire rockets at us every day is not crazy as you make it appear. Try for yourself living under heavy rockt fire on a daily basis and I'm sure your view of the situation will immediately change.

From one of your links:

In these days, we can only condemn gravely what happens in our cherished... this brutal attack on this cherished part of our land, every hour, which targets women, children and elderly,"

Sounds just like what's happening in the southern cities of Israel because of Hammas' actions.

Did you bother and read this part also from your links?

But Abbas also demanded that Hamas relinquish control of Gaza, which it seized in June last year after a bloody battle with Abbas' Fatah group.

Abbas does not have control over Gaza. He is NOT the leader. Hamas is. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Why should Israel let a terrorist organization create a country which will have the same borders with it?

Are you saying that israel is right to allow women to die in childbirth at its checkpoints. What contempt for human life you appear to have.

Stop being populist. Israel's army is one of the most humanitarian armies in the world. Cases like that are very uncommon and if they happened once I'm more than sure there was a very good security reason that it happened (probably a suicide bomber was on its way and everybody was to be checked and double checked at the checkpoint).

I'm not going to dwelve into all that you've said and give you 10 examples of Palestinian bombers and killers for each sentence you've said above but that can easily be done.

I'm sure it's very easy living in a nice peaceful country and looking halfway across the world at a situation and saying:
1. You are occupying terrirtories (they were lost by the Arab countries while trying to destroy Israel).
2. You have checkpoints which make Palestinian lives very difficult and even in seldom occasions someone dies at a checkpoint because of a medical problem (Checkpoints are there because Palestinian suicide bombers have been exploding themselves, along with many kilos of nails, bullets and other sharp metals, in Israeli cities killing hundreds of civilians).
3. Israel is preventing Palestinian students from attending their courses outside Palestine. (I don't know of a country named Palestine so excuse me there).
4. Israel should give up the occupied territories and because it doesn't rockets are being fired so that's o.k. (Israel gave up huge parts of the occupied territories detroying Israeli civilians' homes in the process and almost tearing the entire Israeli society in half just to have the Palestinian terrorist leaders like the Hamas fire rockets back at Israel from those same grounds which were just handed back to them).

And so on and so on.....

 

[ddt]

I'm not exactly sure what point ddt is making ---- We are sure that the checkpoints of the IDF are effective in preventing bombings inside our cities. That is not in dispute.

Regardless the claim that the checkpoints are effective -- is there a need to breach human rights? The holding up of ambulances is such a clear breach; the shooting at ambulances too. And from day one, they have been justified with phony claims of "smuggling explosives".

Let's look at the recent breakthough of the border at Rafah. Israel built a barrier there, because there was rampant smuggling of weapons and explosives (the Philadelphi Zone). Right now, the palestinians are moving cash, weapons, & drugs --- it's a free-for-all.

The end result will be that Israel suffers attacks by heavier rockets (Katyushas). This is the exact scenario that Israel faced with Hezbollah, which was not prevented from accumulating a vast array of missiles. HAMAS is doing the same thing, and following the same road to perdition.

Let's just call it for what it is. The barrier was built to utterly control movement of the Palestinians. The breakthrough of the barrier was preceded by Israel cutting off all supply to Gaza. You may argue all you want that there was not yet actual hunger, but the whole world looked in disgust at that and called it a crime. In that atmosphere, the wall could be blasted without anyone objecting. And if that means that more arms will be smuggled into Gaza: you reap what you sow.

Hamas has offered a truce to Israel and Israel refused. They played it cool, Israel over-reacted and now got the backlash. Better start talking with Hamas: this is a battle Israel can't win. You say it yourself in comparing it with the Hezbollah.

There will be hell to pay, in gaza, ultimately. I cannot see any other outcome.

Are you implying that Israel will commit genocide on Gaza? Bomb them all into oblivion?

In a way, I can't see any other outcome, not with these bumbling politicians Israel now has. They see only one way, and that's the way of escalation. They're myopic, short-sighted and suffer from amnesia. Amira Hass said it much better than I can in yesterday's Haaretz.

 

[yairhol]

Hamas has offered a truce to Israel and Israel refused.

What??? if Al-Qaeda offered a truce to the U.S. should the U.S. accept it and stop looking for Bin-Laden and its other terrorists?

 

[ddt]

What??? if Al-Qaeda offered a truce to the U.S. should the U.S. accept it and stop looking for Bin-Laden and its other terrorists?

Al-Qaeda is a very different beast than Hamas. That's the problem with calling them all "terrorist", you can so easily make false comparisons.

Hamas is, I'd say, a liberation movement which partly uses terrorist methods - such as the lobbing of rockets. They have a definite goal, to liberate (part of) the lands of Palestine from Israeli occupation.

Al-Qaeda, well, is just a terrorist organization. I couldn't even describe their goals. Can you?

Try a comparison with the IRA. That fits much better.

 

[FireGarden]

I'm confused. Does Egypt decide who crosses their border or not?

Yes and no.

Here it looks like yes, as I would expect, it's up to Egypt.

The day before the border was destroyed with explosives, the Egyptians forced back some Palestinians that were trying to leave.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6934A45C-AE0D-44D8-B1B0-039D7E73DF8C.htm

I think the Egyptians lost control when the numbers trying to cross the border got too large. As OneShot said, this only happened because the Palestinians made it happen.

Yet, others are saying only Israel is allowed to ship goods.

Israel wants to approve everything that goes into Gaza. They want their allies to help support the blockade, and that is what Egypt was doing until the Palestinians broke out.

As I said before, I hope that it becomes too politically difficult for Mubarak to re-impose the blockade from Egypt's side of the border.

One thing Mubarak might try to gain from it is more troops at the border:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hgmxxW_DgiPnx52_l3_IxH4qbHcQD8UBRTGO0

Egypt's specific complaint, right now, is that it can only control the Gaza border if it places more forces there. But the Camp David accords that set the peace between Egypt and Israel more than 25 years ago limit the number of troops Egypt can put at the border and Israel won't agree to any increase.

As the standoff over that issue has grown, the two neighbors have fought publicly.

Egypt was furious when Israel's supporters took their case to the U.S. Congress last fall, circulating a videotape of Egyptian soldiers allowing Palestinian arms smuggling. That resulted in new restrictions on U.S. foreign and military aid to Egypt.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, in turn, recently said Egypt was doing a "terrible" job policing the border. Egypt then criticized and belittled her and said it would retaliate diplomatically.

The United States has tried to play negotiator on the issue of troops at the border. It also has tried to find practical solutions to stop the smuggling: U.S. Army Corps of Engineers will soon begin training Egyptian security forces on how to use new high-tech equipment to detect border tunnels.

[...] Meanwhile, Israel and Egypt continued sniping.

Israel's foreign ministry spokesman said Egypt held the responsibility for solving the immediate border crisis. His Egyptian counterpart snapped back that no, the whole thing was in Israel's lap.

 

[geni]

The Unjust Israeli Occupation.

[qimg]http://photos22.flickr.com/31078939_2d252da838_o.gif[/qimg]

Interesting map. It aprently supports genicide in southern sudan and terrorist/freedom fighters in Morocco.

 

[yairhol]

Al-Qaeda is a very different beast than Hamas. That's the problem with calling them all "terrorist", you can so easily make false comparisons.

You see, unlike you I don't make a difference between one fanatic ruthless murderer or another be their cause whatever it may be.
Seeing the video tapes of Palestinian suicide bombers' mothers being proud of their sons who are going to explode in Israeli cities killing themselves along with ~20 other women, children and men just makes it even clearer how fanatic these people are.

As for FireGarden, A two state solution is out of the question. you can have them in your country, I don't want them in mine. In fact, no arab country wants them in their own country either.
If the Hamas would have recognized Israel's right of existence and dropped down their weapons, they could have had a country a long time ago IMHO. But asking a terrorist group to do such a thing is not practical is it?

 

[ddt]

Al-Qaeda is a very different beast than Hamas. That's the problem with calling them all "terrorist", you can so easily make false comparisons.

You see, unlike you I don't make a difference between one fanatic ruthless murderer or another be their cause whatever it may be.

Then you don't have objection to my comparison of Hamas with the IRA?

Seeing the video tapes of Palestinian suicide bombers' mothers being proud of their sons who are going to explode in Israeli cities killing themselves along with ~20 other women, children and men just makes it even clearer how fanatic these people are.

Have I news for you! Hamas stopped with suicide bombing two years ago. But the boys from that peaceloving mr. Abbas - the Al-Aqsa brigades - haven't stopped.

Furthermore, don't you think that suicide missions are more a sign of desperation because they feel there are no other options left? Look at other suicide missions, like the Japanese kamikaze, or the first recorded case of a suicide mission - by a Jew, btw?

As for FireGarden, A two state solution is out of the question. you can have them in your country, I don't want them in mine. In fact, no arab country wants them in their own country either.

So you say, Israel should annex Gaza and the West Bank? And what are you going to do then with the population?

• drive them out
• kill them all
• grant them citizenship

If the Hamas would have recognized Israel's right of existence and dropped down their weapons, they could have had a country a long time ago IMHO.

Yeah right. I bet if they had done that, you would have had another lame excuse to not grant a country to the Palestinians. Just look at Israeli history.

This post of yours makes me wonder: why did you ask at all for a solution to the Qassam missile problem? You have it sorted out for yourselves anyway.

 

[a_unique_person]

The Unjust Israeli Occupation.

http://photos22.flickr.com/31078939_2d252da838_o.gif

Those Muslims all look the same to me, anyway. Or is it Arabs? I forget now.

 

[webfusion]

I think the Egyptians lost control when the numbers trying to cross the border got too large. As OneShot said, this only happened because the Palestinians made it happen.

Try the same maneuver on the border with Israel and you'll be facing a completely different logic. The logic of overwhelming armed force. No gaza "breakthrough" will happen on OUR frontier. No freakin' way.

 

[gtc]

Regardless the claim that the checkpoints are effective -- is there a need to breach human rights? The holding up of ambulances is such a clear breach; the shooting at ambulances too. And from day one, they have been justified with phony claims of "smuggling explosives".

'Phony claims'?

This Lancet article seems to disagree with you.
http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art8008web.pdf

Is this phony too?
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianambulancesterrorism1009.html

Both of these were found in a two second google search.

 

[webfusion]

ddt:

...the whole world looked in disgust at that and called it a crime....

The world looks at Israel itself, and calls it a "crime" --

Look, from where I sit, the palestinians have had their chances. Now they are on their own, and what of it? Are they ready for "statehood" ? They are a joke. They couldn't run a proper state even if Israel handed them the keys to Tel Aviv and evacuated our west entire coast. It's ridiculous to think that the palestinians are "ready" for independence. No way, no how.

We're a fraction of an inch from disassociating ourselves from gaza entirely. As the Prime Minister clearly said: "Let them walk... south."
Since before 1967, they were Egyptians. Full circle.
Go, gazans, into the wilderness of Sinai, and wander there for 40 years, and then talk to us about your next moves. By then, your venom may be spent. Or not.
(Islamic fundamentalism being what it is, they'll probably still be looking for a fight)

 

[The Fool]

We're a fraction of an inch from disassociating ourselves from gaza entirely.

please put that on todays to do list.

Disassociating yourself completely would be a positive thing IMHO but I don't think you can. Running the lives of palestinians seems to have become an addiction..........unless when you say "disassociate" you mean blockade.....do you mean blockade?

As the Prime Minister clearly said: "Let them walk... south."
Since before 1967, they were Egyptians. Full circle.
Go, gazans, into the wilderness of Sinai, and wander there for 40 years, and then talk to us about your next moves. By then, your venom may be spent. Or not.
(Islamic fundamentalism being what it is, they'll probably still be looking for a fight)

hang on....maybe "disassociate" means drive them into egypt.....is that what you mean?

Anyway Web, In the end I can't see America letting you do that. IMHO You would be told not to be stupid. How about we tone down the chest beating eh?

 

[ddt]

'Phony claims'?

This Lancet article seems to disagree with you.
http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art8008web.pdf

Is this phony too?
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/palestinianambulancesterrorism1009.html

Both of these were found in a two second google search.

Both articles only mention the 27-03-2002 case of smuggling explosives in an ambulance. You should have read them yourself more carefully before posting that. I take issue with that.

 

[gtc]

I take issue with that.

I am very happy for you.

However, it does show that those claims were not phony and that Israel does have reason to be wary about ambulances.

Edited to add another link:
http://www.intelligence.org.il/Eng/tr/amb_1_04.htm

 

[webfusion]

T-F mentions (inter-alia) :

please put that (Disassociating from gaza) on today's to-do list.

Done.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080124/ts_nm/palestinians_israel_dc
Israel's Deputy Defense Minister has said that Israel "wanted to wash its hands of Gaza altogether" --

Let the Egyptians deal with them.

Oh wait, the Egyptians are trying to "herd" them back into gaza. Oh well, so much for Egyptian hospitality for their fellow arab brothers and sisters.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/948051.html
Egyptian border guards with riot shields formed human chains Friday, trying to hinder the flow of Gazans into Egypt.

 

[FireGarden]

As for FireGarden, A two state solution is out of the question. you can have them in your country, I don't want them in mine. In fact, no arab country wants them in their own country either.

I think you meant one-state solution in that quote.
In any case, Haaretz has an article on how the left is slowly turning away from the two-state solution -- which is seen as anachronistic.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/947629.html

If the two states for two nations vision loses its active, dedicated public of supporters - its activist, ideological engine - its implementation is in danger.

I think that fear of a one-state solution is the only thing pushing Olmert (and, before him, Sharon) towards a two-state agreement.

 

[ddt]

I take issue with that.

I am very happy for you.

As up to now, you have documented your claims in our discussion, you disappoint me in your stance in this.

However, it does show that those claims were not phony and that Israel does have reason to be wary about ambulances.

Edited to add another link:
http://www.intelligence.org.il/Eng/tr/amb_1_04.htm

Let's see.

1. mrbaracuda shows a clip of an ambulance at a checkpoint where explosives are found.
2. I state, citing a B'tselem report, that this incident is the only one the IDF could provide evidence of to them, after a string of allegations of the IDF
3. you state there are more, linking to two newspaper articles which reference the same incident

And now you come with another newspaper clipping, this time from 2003? Come on.

Well, here is from a B'Tselem report from December 2003:

The IDF’s use of ambulances for military purposes is especially disturbing in light of the repeated claims made by the IDF that Palestinians use ambulances to transport weapons and explosives. The use of ambulances for such purposes also constitutes a grave breach of international law and endanger civilians. It should be noted that, with the exception of one case, and despite repeated requests by Physicians for Human Rights and the International Red Cross, the IDF has not presented any evidence to support this contention, not even in response to petitions filed in the Supreme Court.

ETA: note that this B'Tselem report is dated after the newspaper clipping you provided.

 

[WildCat]

Go, gazans, into the wilderness of Sinai, and wander there for 40 years, and then talk to us about your next moves. By then, your venom may be spent. Or not.
(Islamic fundamentalism being what it is, they'll probably still be looking for a fight)

I have no doubt they will. This is a culture that worships death and lives only for jihad, as demonstrated in this sickening video made by the Palestinians themselves. Isn't it cute how the little children put on a play?