joobie
i don't care
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Bobby Fischer Dead
- Thread starter Walk The Line
- Start date
I'm aware that pure vote doesn't work. The first attempt at this type of game (with Karpov) failed for exactly that reason. Don't assume the best in yourself (superior knowledge) and the worst in others (ignorance), that's the mistake that's fueling your personal attacks.
Anyway, it wasn't pure vote. There was a small group of highly ranked players recommending moves...an analysis tree was kept etc. You should read it, if you're interested in chess or just social experiments...it's fascinating.
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I'd say, compared to Fischer, that Kasparov was greater in virtue (mainly long-term focus) but lesser in talent.
Fischer had 2 Jewish parents btw.
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
A fact that, whenever mentioned in his presence, was guaranteed to send Bobby into a maniacal, profanity-laced tirade.
boloboffin
Unregistered
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Bobby Fischer spent the last part of his life castled. What a waste.
Yeah. I've listened to a bunch of his radio interviews and saw the ESPN piece on him before it was pulled off of Youtube. I could listen to them because he was so over-the-top with it, and basically threw out a bunch of unsupported accusations...so it came across as just empty hate...almost meaningless and cartoonish.
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Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
The tremendous difference between Morphy and Fischer is, Morphy was not a professional player, and he didn't stop playing because of a tantrum. Although he sliced through all the world's best players of the time - up to and including Anderssen - there were no purses or titles to be won in that age, and Morphy never once thought of chess as anything more than just a game; he was never a serious, dedicated student, which makes his domination of the game more spectacular in my opinion.
But in point of fact, Morphy had always wanted to be a lawyer; and once he became the world's best player,that particular goal was achieved, and it was now time, in his opinion, to move on with life.
Fischer, on the other hand, dedicated every spare moment of his life to studying chess, and remained obsessed with it even after he took his ball and went home.
But in point of fact, Morphy had always wanted to be a lawyer; and once he became the world's best player,that particular goal was achieved, and it was now time, in his opinion, to move on with life.
Fischer, on the other hand, dedicated every spare moment of his life to studying chess, and remained obsessed with it even after he took his ball and went home.
Apparently Fischer went into semi-retirement in the mid-1960's...so I'd hesitate to say that his disappearance was solely due to his haggling over the world championship rules.
I've noticed a pattern where people with extreme potential are also extremely good at doing nothing. They are capable of spending long portions of their life in complete idleness. (or perhaps it just appears that way compared to their achievements when they did focus?)
I've noticed a pattern where people with extreme potential are also extremely good at doing nothing. They are capable of spending long portions of their life in complete idleness. (or perhaps it just appears that way compared to their achievements when they did focus?)
Unalienable
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
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- 292
I'm sick of hearing Fischer criticized for not defending his title.
Fischer's "long list of demands" that his critics often bleat about was far smaller than a typical list of conditions you would see at any heavyweight prize fight. Lighting conditions, prize money guarantees, and so forth. The most controversial demand was the infamous 9-9 clause, which declared that if the match should become tied at 9 games to 9 games, instead of playing one last game "for all the marbles" that the match would be declared drawn. Some people claimed that this gave too much of an advantage to the champion, although simple mathematical analysis proves otherwise.
Fischer didn't run from Karpov. Karpov ran from Fischer. Fischer laid out his conditions, perfectly reasonable conditions, in a perfectly sane and fair manner. The Soviets knew they had only one way to regain "their" chess crown, and that was to abort the match altogether.
One of the "insiders", who later defected, was grandmaster Lev Alburt. He states:
Soviet Grandmasters privately scoffed at Karpov's chances in 1975. Most believed he would lose... and lose badly. ... Karpov knew he could hardly draw a game with Fischer, never mind winning one or two games. His only chance was to disrupt the match. So a whole arsenal of tricks was worked out, designed to upset the sensitive American, unaccustomed to such methods.
Since the Soviets were obviously not going to play against Fischer fairly, he retired, while calling himself "The Undefeated World Champion." And he was, until just a few days ago.
Fischer's "long list of demands" that his critics often bleat about was far smaller than a typical list of conditions you would see at any heavyweight prize fight. Lighting conditions, prize money guarantees, and so forth. The most controversial demand was the infamous 9-9 clause, which declared that if the match should become tied at 9 games to 9 games, instead of playing one last game "for all the marbles" that the match would be declared drawn. Some people claimed that this gave too much of an advantage to the champion, although simple mathematical analysis proves otherwise.
Fischer didn't run from Karpov. Karpov ran from Fischer. Fischer laid out his conditions, perfectly reasonable conditions, in a perfectly sane and fair manner. The Soviets knew they had only one way to regain "their" chess crown, and that was to abort the match altogether.
One of the "insiders", who later defected, was grandmaster Lev Alburt. He states:
Soviet Grandmasters privately scoffed at Karpov's chances in 1975. Most believed he would lose... and lose badly. ... Karpov knew he could hardly draw a game with Fischer, never mind winning one or two games. His only chance was to disrupt the match. So a whole arsenal of tricks was worked out, designed to upset the sensitive American, unaccustomed to such methods.
Since the Soviets were obviously not going to play against Fischer fairly, he retired, while calling himself "The Undefeated World Champion." And he was, until just a few days ago.
El Greco
Summer worshipper
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
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- 17,607
Could someone please summarize what all this is about ? It looks so futile to me. Fischer was one of the greatest chess players ever, period. Arguing whether X or Y was better or worse than Fischer is an exercise in futility. Fischer also became a bigoted idiot, period. Whether one is happy that a bigot died or sad that a great chess player died, is down to personal viewpoints.
negativ
Graduate Poster
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Best watch yourself, lest you be moderated by a moderator who also has apparently not read the thread (moderately).
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Oh yes, that "Karpov has to win 10 games to get the title, but I only have to win 9 to keep it" condition. Sure, yeah that was absolutely fair.
Mmm hmmm. Yes, setting conditions such as "all toilets in the building must be raised by exactly one inch" is perfectly "sane and fair". But no, Karpov didn't "run" from anyone. It was decided by FIDE - which at the time was run by both Americans and Soviets - and not Karpov, that Fischer's demands were BS.
The World Champion title is owned by FIDE. They decide who gets it and who doesn't. The defending champion doesn't get to arbitrarily change the championship match's format just because he wants to, especially if that change makes it easier for him to keep his title and harder for him to lose it. He has to defend it under the exact same conditions that he won it. That is "fair".
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Another mis-staement from you with an anti-Fischer Bias .. I's not nice to make stuff up .. It taints any credibility you might have aspired to, with regard to this subject ..
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...layercomp=either&pid=19233&player=&pid2=14380
4 wins - 4 losses -5 draws ....
I'm really curious about these vitriolic blinders you have on, with regard to Fischer's chess skills ..
It hints of the bigotry that Fischer demonstrated .. ( for whatever reason Fischer's bigotry stemmed from )
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
I don't need "credibility" when all I'm doing is quoting Fischer's own twisted words - they pretty much speak for themselves. But...
Wow, I'd never heard of game 8 before. You learn something new every day.
Yes, my principled contempt for Fischer is truly just one step away from saying something like "All Jews should be arrested and executed by the hundreds of thousands". Way to go there, buddy.
Karpov only gave himself a 40% chance of victory. It's pretty crazy for a guy on that level, with the amount of confidence you must have to be a champion, to give himself chances like that unless he knew he was outclassed and couldn't lie about it.
Checkmite, you're taking your disgust at his over-the-top Anti-Semitism and trying to express it by diminishing him as a chess player. It seems pretty clear that you're moving into fallacious arguments (incorrectly quoting his record, incorrectly stating that he stopped playing to avoid losing his title when he was just doing what he'd always done before he'd won it, etc.).
If making idiotic mistakes or becoming insane and detrimental to yourself and others later in life negated what people achieved earlier...then there are a WHOLE lot of brilliant minds who you should delete from the history books along with Fischer. (Hemingway, Edgar Allan Poe, Howard Hughes, Isaac Newton, Glenn Gould, William Sidis, Stu Ungar) etc.
It also helps to study and understand things like racism, Anti-Semitism etc...until you really know why people believe them and why they are incorrect...then it's easier to not take them to heart and to just recognize them as simple fallacious or childish mistakes of thinking. If you need an example...H.P. Lovecraft was a known racist and named his cat "******-Man" (it starred out my "n-word")...but it doesn't stop me from appreciating his talent as a writer.
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latent aaaack
Muse
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- Aug 4, 2006
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- 926
I can't think of any accomplished people like this, care to give example?
Possibly because of his antiwar stance, Morphy was unable to successfully build a law practice even after the war ended. His attempts to open a law office failed; when he had visitors, they invariably wanted to talk about chess, not their legal affairs. Financially secure thanks to his family fortune, Morphy essentially spent the rest of his life in idleness. Asked by admirers to return to chess competition, he refused.
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For the next 20 years, Berg had no real job, living off friends and relatives who put up with him because of his great charm. When they would ask what he did for a living, he would reply by putting his finger to his lips, giving them the impression that he was still a spy.[43] He lived with his brother Samuel for 17 years. According to Samuel, he became moody and snappish after the war and did not seem to care for much in life besides his books. His brother finally grew fed up with the arrangement and asked Moe to leave and even had eviction papers drawn up.[3] After being evicted from his brother's home, Berg moved in with his sister Ethel in Belleville, New Jersey, where he remained for the rest of his life.[44]
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After escaping back to the East Coast in 1921, Sidis was determined to live an independent and private life, and would only take work running adding machines or other fairly menial tasks. He worked in New York City and became estranged from his parents.
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After the World Championship, Fischer did not play another serious game in public for nearly 20 years. He did not defend his title and public perception was reflected in the decline of interest in chess in the West in the following years.
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The Last Supper was only finished after his patron threatened to cut off all funds. Mona Lisa took twenty years to complete. The Adoration of the Magi, an early painting, was never finished and his equestrian projects were never built.
His procrastination caused him much grief in later years. Despite his varied contributions, he felt he could have achieved much more. Given his talents, it is without doubt that more of his aspirations could have become a reality in his own time. So much was half-completed that he appealed to God, “Tell me if anything ever was done. Tell me if anything was done.”
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I'm currently searching up the quote by Charlie Kaufman (currently one of the most talented screenwriters in the world, and an extremely intelligent person), where he mentions that, at age 30...if he hadn't succeeded with sending his sample script into TV studios...he just "wasn't going to do anything" for the rest of his life.
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NoZed Avenger
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2002
- Messages
- 11,286
And how did it compare to the conditions that Karpov actually imposed once he was awarded the title?
For that matter, we can go back and look at Alekhine's match conditions, too.
CptColumbo
Just One More Question
Best Game I ever studied was Boden's Mate. I even had it memorized at one point. It's why I avoid castling.
Schulder-Boden, London, 1853, a Philidor's Defense
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 d6
3.c3 f5
4.Bc4 Nf6
5.d4 fxe4
6.dxe5 exf3
7.exf6 Qxf6
8.gxf3 Nc6
9.f4 Bd7
10.Be3 O-O-O
11.Nd2 Re8
12.Qf3 Bf5
13.O-O-O? (13.Bd5 is better) 13...d5!
14.Bxd5?? (moving into a forced mate; much better is 14.Rde1) 14...Qxc3+
15.bxc3 Ba3#
Schulder-Boden, London, 1853, a Philidor's Defense
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 d6
3.c3 f5
4.Bc4 Nf6
5.d4 fxe4
6.dxe5 exf3
7.exf6 Qxf6
8.gxf3 Nc6
9.f4 Bd7
10.Be3 O-O-O
11.Nd2 Re8
12.Qf3 Bf5
13.O-O-O? (13.Bd5 is better) 13...d5!
14.Bxd5?? (moving into a forced mate; much better is 14.Rde1) 14...Qxc3+
15.bxc3 Ba3#