Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[historian]

If it's a choice of free thinking and free speech, or having my opinions and thoughts controlled by the evil PSYOPS.... I'll go with whoever knows how to use paragraphs.

We thought that you might see it our way.

 

[William Parcher]

2. Whatever happened to the recreated footage using Bob H. in a Morris suit?

Though I believe Morris spoke to Patterson before the PGF was shot, I don't buy that the suit on screen was made by his company. Nevertheless, I do recall seeing some stills of this effort. Sure, the suit wasn't that purty, but neither was the Patty suit.

I'm just interested in seeing a much older, much heavier Bob in motion in squatch rags again.

What happened?

That entire program appears to be missing from the Internet. I suspect that some Bigfooters may have this on their hard drive. We keep seeing a variety of posted still frames from the program, but nobody is posting clips (such as on YouTube).

3. No Pattyphile has ever adequately explained why they insist that Mr. Heironimus has never passed a polygraph test when he actually has, and that it's part of the public record.

Of course, a certain BF-friendly link that I sadly can't provide (too few posts here) contains a couple of lines of delightful Woo ("...Heironimus is unable to produce the alleged costume...Heironimus footprints do not match those left by the creature in the Patterson Film...") and one outright lie ("...he is unable to duplicate the locomotion of the creature filmed by Roger Patteron in October of 1967..."), but by now I'm used to this kind of fact-spinning.

I don't recall claims that BH never passed a polygraph test. What I always hear is that Patterson passed one too. Fancy that! There are citations of RP taking and passing this test but there is no presented physical evidence of it.

But the issue of the BH polygraph testing is quite interesting. There is ample evidence that these tests are not what many people think they are. There are good reasons to be skeptical that these tests can actually be accurate in 'determining lies'. Yet many people strongly believe that they do. Bob Heironimus seems to be one of them. He spoke about this on the March 2007 Tom Biscardi radio show interview. It is clear from the way he talks about polygraphs that he is a believer in their accuracy. He stresses the significance of the test and that he passed it. In spite of six people being on the program - none of them even brings up the notion that these tests may not be a very good way of detecting lies. It's like everybody on the show thinks they do work. A caller then mentions that RP passed this test. Long responds that it is cited but we have nothing else. Henry May mentions Bob Gimlin passing the test. Long says he never heard of this. Weeks later we learn that it was a false rumor.

What is especially interesting to me is BH's belief that they work and that he willing took the test. The actual results of the test are of lesser importance (to a polygraph skeptic) than the knowledge that BH willingly subjected himself to it. That's saying a lot if he himself thought the test would reveal lies. You are lying about being Patty and yet you go and take the test that will prove you are lying? That's a strange approach unless you are telling the truth or are willing to gamble on the results (knowing that you might pass in spite of lying). We are told that Patterson did pass a voluntary polygraph test as well. I don't recall him boasting of it afterwards nor do I recall Gimlin ever mentioning it. It's odd that Gimlin didn't bring it up in every interview. "... and not only that, but Roger passed one of those lie detector tests."

Maybe Gimlin lost faith in polygraphs after his hoaxing partner passed one.

 

[William Parcher]

We should have Davis, Caddy and Beckjord analyze this image for additional Bigfoots. That female probably had family in the vicinity.

 

[Óðinn]

http://www.hancockhouse.com/products/pdfs/MeeSasSC.pdf

Yeah, I actually knew that Diogenes meant the "fleshed out" Steindorf model of Patty that was 5' 7". But the skeleton obviously wasn't used to create the model's feet. I wouldn't rely on either to be a ruler for measuring the height. Funny how the only part of the body with a known length was rendered so arbitrarily.

Found this on the BFF. I guess this is supposed to be the model with a corrected foot length. Too late.

 

[Ashles]

I don't care what you say, I think some of these female Russian javelin throwers take steroids.

 

[Óðinn]

3. No Pattyphile has ever adequately explained why they insist that Mr. Heironimus has never passed a polygraph test when he actually has, and that it's part of the public record.

As WP expressed, RP supposedly also took a lie detector test and passed. If so, then this would demonstrate how unreliable they are since both men can't be telling the truth. I don't recall BH ever showing the results of his actual test(s). Did he? If not, then they aren't exactly part of the public record. I'd imagine it would be easier to pass a LD when you can't possibly be called on it and I don't think it was such a risk for BH to take the first one when only his attorney knew the results. I doubt BH would admit to taking one if he had failed it, let alone take another one. I'd sure like to know how it was conducted and what questions were asked. But unless it can be shown that RP didn't pass one himself then it doesn't mean too much. Either BH is telling the truth or he's delusional or he's a pretty accomplished liar.

 

[Dfoot]

Ashles -- If only I could go back in time I would film a Bigfoot walking along the sandbar in blurred, jerky motion and swear it was real. But alas, who would buy the film today? All I can do to help is try to be there when the Bigfoot film posts reach the 1 million mark.


In answer to a question -- Yes. Patty has the same ear as the Star Trek Head I've shown you. It's just covered in hair. You can see it above. You can also see the elbow pad and the shoulder pad as well as the line of the top of the suit that the head-mask pokes through. This is due to the fact that it's a suit and not the result of natural selection. Just my opinion, of course. God may be playing a cruel joke here.


When I made that silly Halloween dummy to stand in front of my house I didn't hide TOR's ears. They are right there in this shot. I just snipped some hair from the hair suit and glued it over them similar to the Patterson creature. In some angles you see the ears and in some you can't.

Or else the ears become invisible when they decide to... I can't really say.

 

[Linda777NJ]

.

Try walking through the woods at night, by yourself, with no flashlight, no wind noise, no traffic noise, no cricket noise, no creek noise, no footstep noise from a companion, AND JUST LISTEN. Listen for the faint sound of bipedal footsteps that are almost totally concealed by their presence in another dimension. But they will be zeroing in on you. They will ultimately position themselves directly off of the road or trail, in order to observe you, from another dimension. Then, you will panic and run screaming back to your vehicle. And later, you will try to put this harmless incident completely out of your mind so you do not have to think about those darned old invisible people in the forest.

Now just how I am I to find all of those crickets so I can tie their little legs together if I can't have a flashlight?

 

[Drewbot]

I'd like to take a page out of the Pro Patty crowd, and put forth this old 8mm video of a gorilla. Look how real the gorilla looks, also note, there are no shaggy hair clumps, seams, or pads visible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ObJEQJVH00

skip to the 46 second mark for the really realistic stuff.

 

[William Parcher]

Yakima Man Claims He's the Real Bigfoot

Heironimus submitted to a lie detector test administered by leading polygraph expert Dr. Ed Gelb to try to prove that he was the infamous creature shot on film in Bluff Creek, California, wearing just a modified gorilla costume, which does not match the figure in the Patterson film. Not even close.

Heironimus took the polygraph on live television and passed the test according to Dr. Ed Gelb, proving once and for all that along with passed polygraphs by serial killers like Ted Bundy, Heironimus believes he was the man in the suit to the degree that he too was able to pass the polygraph.
Is it any wonder the polygraph is not admissible evidence in a court of law?

This article appears to be written by someone strongly skeptical of BH's claim (Douglas E. Trapp: Irving, Texas). But it does cite some details of Bob's polygraph test.

"Zillah attorney Barry M. Woodard said Wednesday that his client has been unable to retrieve the suit, explaining that's why he took the lie-detector test."

I forgot that BH has actually passed two polygraph tests.

There is a BFF thread about BH taking the test(s).

They also talk about Patterson's test...

I am working on a book about the life of Roger Patterson. This book should be completed around May of 2006. As a result of my research, I found out that in 1970 National wildlife magazine did an article on Bigfoot written by George Harrison. The article states that Roger Patterson passed a lie detector test and that the magazine would not have done the story had he not passed it. In speaking to George Harrison via the telephone, he stated to me that his direct boss and Chief Executive Editor, Dick Kirkpatrick(now dead), attended the polygraph exam with Roger and was told by the examiner that Roger Patterson had certainly passed in his professional opinion.I am currently looking into this matter further. As I see it, at best we have two people who have passed Lie Detector tests. Furthermore, and I don't know if this is true, I was told that Bob H. is on a heart medication that could cause a person to be able to pass a lie detector test. Obviously this should be examined in greater detail. The information I have uncovered thus far in my 20 plus taped interviews out of a total of about 70 scheduled interviews, leads me to believe more than ever before that we are looking at a real Bigfoot when we gaze upon the creature in the P/G film.

David Murphy

I thought I had read that National Wildlife article but can't find it now.

From Daniel Perez's P-G Bibliography...

80. Harrison, George H. “On The Trail Of Bigfoot.” National Wildlife, October-November 1970, pages 4-9. (“[Patterson] instantly agreed to take a lie detector test. The results convinced the experienced polygraph operator that Patterson was not lying).

 

[Avindair]

You young lady, took the words right out of my mouth. I could not stated it more eloquently than "Nuh-uh"!

Wrong gender, sir.

That being said, your response does nothing but reinforce my point. Thanks for that.

Yakima Herald owns it. But they tossed it because of the lack of resemblance between Bob H. in the suit and the real MaCoy.

Could you provide a link to that information? I'm not doubting your honesty. I'd just like to read the original document.

Son of Sam could pass a lie detector test, if his own attorney hired the technician. It is a simple matter of economics my Dear. Not truthfulness.

...but Gimlin's insistence that "Nope, it was real!" is all we're expected to accept, despite the many shortcomings of the suit?

Sorry; ain't buying it.

Since arthwollipot used that term for perhaps the first time on JREF only yesturday and you are using it today, why don't you double check in the mirror and verify that you are not arthwollipot's SOCKPUPPET! Or say hello to him, in the lunch room!

Oh, please. The other former BFF posters know who I am, so this is just nonsense.

(That being said, I AM disappointed that someone else came up with "Pattyphiles" independently. I was pretty pleased with that label. Ah, well.)

Dfoot is a nobody here. He has no name, no creditials and no credibility. Why would you have information that he is in the film and makeup industry, unless you are working with him as well?

Come now.

No, I don't "work with" Dfoot. I just respect his work in this study.

I'm also, for the record, an old "Buffy" fan, though, so I do know of his professional work, too.

Of course, what does a film industry professional with extensive experience photographing creature suits know that a layman doesn't know about the PGF. Am I right? Am I right?

Uuhh. Like yaaaa! The pics don't match. Roe had no horses. Roe was alone. Different species of Bigfoot.

I'm sorry, did you REALLY say "different species of Bigfoot" there?

Until you establish the existence of even one species, I think you'd better be a little hesitant to expand the "family tree", so to speak.

Since Dfoot is allowed to bring modern technology 40 years back into the past, so can the Bigfoot diehards.

Patent nonsense, and I'd hazard to say you're well aware of that fact.

Dfoot and others have demonstrated time and again that all of the technology required to make the PGF was available not only in the late 1960's but far, far earlier.

Which brings me to MY challenge: Want to shut people like me up? Go and create a Patterson Film Hoax.

No, I'm not kidding.

Go out there and do your darndest to match the look-and-feel of original piece, using the technology available at the time and before. Make sure to keep the subject as tiny as possible in the frame, and shake the camera like a crack-addicted monkey drinking a two liter bottle of Mountain Dew. Then, once processed, light blast the print, and finally only release a second-generation copy.

Try that out. You might be surprised at what you've created, and what it says about the PGF.

Actually, the Freeman footage does count.

Evidence from an admitted hoaxer?

Short of his producing a freaking body, you and other credufoots would be wise to put an Atlantic-sized gap between yourselves and his "evidence".

So how are things at the National Security Agency today? Did they give you an office with a window seat, in addition to your own internet connection? Did they prepare this script for you? Come on. Help us out on this one. We can recognize a P-L-A-N-T, as well as the next yahoo. WHO IS PAYING YOU?

Oh. My.



Seek help. Seriously.

If you sincerely think that anyone who thinks critically about the PGF works for the government, then I am genuinely concerned about your well-being.

Best of luck to you.

(...backing away slowly, not making eye contact...)

Avindair

 

[Avindair]

Hello Avindairr !!

You were one of the rational voices at BFF ..

I remember when you left ..

I was posting over there as ' Skeptical Greg ' ..

HEY!

Nice to be remembered. And it's good to read you here!

Thanks for the link. I'll read it tonight.

Avindair

 

[Avindair]

That's excellent, Avindair. We've chewed on many of those questions here on JREF. Your postings on BFF are some of the best. I guess I've read nearly every thread there on PGF over the past couple years. I liked Coltane's stuff too, but they killed him off.

Thanks, sir.

Yeah, I dug Coltrane's stuff, too. Alas, the BFF isn't really the place to be skeptical, despite their posturing and chest-beating to the contrary.

I remember the precise moment when I realized that the place was a farce: When Bipto called me a "troll". Not because I was being rude or confrontational. Nope, it was because I dared to keep insisting that the burden of proof in subjects like Bigfoot resides solely with those making the extraordinary claims, and not on the skeptics studying the matter.

I guess that marked me as the unreasonable type.

Avindair

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

The eye socket and brow ridge are quite extraordinary in this still. The eyeball looks like an olive sitting in a salad bowl. The mandible and chin area seem to be drooping downwards like it is melting. I'm reminded of the Star Wars bar room scene. The top of the head has totally deformed. As if the brain is going to pop out like a zit.

You know, this kinda reminds me of a suit used in THE MYSTERIOUS MONSTERS...

 

[William Parcher]

In answer to a question -- Yes. Patty has the same ear as the Star Trek Head I've shown you. It's just covered in hair. You can see it above.

Dfoot, help me understand what you are seeing and saying.

Patty has formed ears that are hidden beneath hair? You can see the right ear through the hair?

 

[Correa Neto]

Hey!

Lets make a hominid hoax!

Check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/The-Lost-Worl...6583053QQihZ006QQcategoryZ18834QQcmdZViewItem

Reasonably cheap, looks good in the pics and IIRC the movie, under PGF-like filming conditions it would look great.

LETS MAKE A MILLION BUCKS!

Now, seriously. Look at the costume. I fail to see anything complicated or high-tech there. Increasing forearm lenght seems to be a relatively easy task, even with moving fingers (using one of the ways we previously discussed). A pair of scisors could decrease hair lenght, if needed. Some dye could be used to change hair color, a bit of paint to change skin tone.

Is it far from what could be made back in the 60s'? I don't think so...

What do you think, Dfoot?

Here's my sketch for the script:
The bigfoot sequence starts with some shaking and the lens zooming at the creature, which is seen from behind, crouching near some trees.
*voices in the background*
"Yeah, a bear... A bit skinny... Seems to be eating someting in the ground"
"Can it hear or smell us?"
"No, we're downwind... Just don't talk loud..."
Creature kneels, arms and hands are seen, it brings some berries to its mouth. Camera shakes, focus becomes unstable for a while. Camera focues again at the creature, shakier than before.
*voices, cleary exited*
"Oh my God, that's no bear..."
"Shut the f-word up..."
"Jesus..."
Creature stands upright, looks at the camera and quickly walks towards the woods, still carrying the berries. Camera follows creature, with some shaking, untill its disappears among the woods.
*Voices, one of then angered*
"I told you to shut the f-word up, he's gone now"
"Jesus, man, that was a bigfoot! Got it on tape?"
End of bigfoot footage.

So, let's make a million bucks?

 

[tube]

I've added yet another page to my site, this one concerning Bigfoot's mid-tarsal break:

http://orgoneresearch.com/bigfoot' mid tarsal break.htm

 

[William Parcher]

A couple weeks ago I tried to visit Erik Beckjord's Bigfoot forum. Instead it went straight to a page from the company he was paying for the web address. It basically said that bills were not paid and the domain name for the forum was auctioned off. No more information.

Today that address sends you straight to the BFF. Try it.

That must sting Beckjord like a heart attack.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Note that the reconstruction in pic at http://farm1.static.flickr.com/149/353004218_747ac40641_b.jpg, despite the erect posture, has feet with opposing toes. They are different from what bigfoot's feet are claimed to be; they look like the feet from great apes (other than humans), thus implying a similar way of life.

Yeah, I found that very amusing. The only Gigantopithecus artwork I could find with remotely humanlike feet was the black and white one from 1970.

this reconstruction would be an example of a great ape evolving to a quadrupedal posture. Very thought-provoking.

Speaking of which, this is the only statue I've seen that depicts a Gigantopithecus on all fours. Getting back to the website we were originally discussing, I found these quote particularly interesting:

Finally, the adult males of the giant ape were much larger than the females. Australian anatomist Charles Oxnard statistically analyzed 735 teeth of Gigantopithecus that were complete enough to be measured accurately. He found that they divided neatly into two size groups of equal number, which he interpreted to represent the males and females in the population. The contrast was greater than that seen in any living primate species, including the gorilla and the orangutan, two species in which the male is substantially bigger than the female. In Gigantopithecus, the difference in tooth size between the sexes may represent strong competition among males for mates - a clue to the species' social behavior.

Pardon the pun, but doesn't this kinda throw a monkey wrench into the whole "Bigfoot is Giganto" idea?

In determining the size of Gigantopithecus, we felt it necessary to scale the body back a bit, so as not to be influenced too much by the giant ape's extraordinarily deep and thickened mandible. Nevertheless, given that the average male silverback gorilla is about six feet tall (standing erect) and weighs in at 400 pounds, Munns calculated that the average Gigantopithecus male was more than ten feet tall and weighed as much as 1,200 pounds - comparable to a large male polar bear.

If Patty is a real Bigfoot/Gigantopithecus, shouldn't "she" be taller and heavier than "she" appears to be?

and this caption reads:

Bill Munns stands next to his model of a Gigantopithecus male, a quadrupedal, fist-walking creature that also could have stood erect, as bears do.

Granted, this is only an estimate and we won't know for sure until we have more complete skeletal remains, but I think the idea that it was quadrupedal is the safest bet.

 

[Married2aWooster]

Oh, I wish I still had room in my sig...

I'll take it.

+1