We Want To See Your Papers

[ServiceSoon]

If the theory that a nationalized ID card would provide us security, shouldn't the social security number already be doing this?

 

[Ohmer]

I know a guy that ended up on the no-fly list. The first time he was stopped, he was carrying proper ID in the form of a US Passport, but that didn't matter. He still wasn't allowed to board his flight. The only thing that mattered is that his name (David with a common Anglo-Saxon surname) was on the list.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but perhaps with a federal standard the TSA could make this easier. The whole idea of not denying someone access to a flight based only on their name is far more of a problem than haveing a nationally standardized ID card. The card itself won't solve the problem, but it might make it possible.

 

[Corsair 115]

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but perhaps with a federal standard the TSA could make this easier. The whole idea of not denying someone access to a flight based only on their name is far more of a problem than haveing a nationally standardized ID card.

It has always struck me as odd that, apparently, this no-fly list only includes names. Wouldn't it make far more sense for it to include a photo or photos as well? After all, it's hardly a secret that two or more people can share the same name, so it seems to me having the name and a photo to go along with it would help clear up these sorts of mistaken identity situations.

 

[Ohmer]

I suspect I'm older than you, but I remember distinctly the horror that was instilled in us as children at the thought of living in a country like the Soviet Union or East Germany - where you had to carry your papers and verify your identity at every turn in the name of national security. That so many are so completely unfazed by this sort of thing and accept it as just sensible, frankly, sends a chill up my spine and your contempt for those who do see the parallels and are concerned with the steady slide toward USSR style statism is very disheartening. People can't even remember, apparently, what liberty and freedom really are.

I would hate throw away a useful tool based on cold war propaganda. Right now, someone can demand to "see my papers" if I want to:

1. Buy a beer
2. Drive a car anywhere
3. Board an airplane
4. Get a job
5. Open a bank account
6. Use a credit card
7. many more...

In spite of this, western civilization has not collapsed. I haven't seen any reason to believe that having a nationally standardized identification system will increase the situations in which I need to show identification. What it will do is make the process more effective.

Right now there are over 50 different versions of ID that can be accepted at the airport. Having one would make spotting fakes much easier. The current system is an ineffective annoyance. I would prefer a more effective annoyance.

 

[WildCat]

I suspect I'm older than you, but I remember distinctly the horror that was instilled in us as children at the thought of living in a country like the Soviet Union or East Germany

I'm 41, I remember well the crap that went down behind the iron curtain.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Real ID is a step closer to "papers please". Can you explain it?

eta: and you do realize that in the Soviet Bloc the "papers" were official permission to travel in your own country, don't you? Kind of like in school when you had to have a hall pass to move around during class periods. It wasn't just an ID card.

 

[Kestrel]

Right now there are over 50 different versions of ID that can be accepted at the airport. Having one would make spotting fakes much easier. The current system is an ineffective annoyance. I would prefer a more effective annoyance.

Asking for your ID at that airport is security theater. It's done because the public associates asking for an ID with security. Asking for ID multiple times creates the appearance of high security.

If they really were interested in verifying passenger identities, the TSA dude asking for your ID would use a computer. Your ID number would be entered and checked against a database created by your state. The screen would display the photo and description that should be on that ID. Comparing that photo with your face would verify that you are indeed who you say you are.

None of this requires tricky technology, or encrypted data on each ID card. It's just a simple web query to a database and would work with the drivers license that is already in your pocket.

 

[ServiceSoon]

Still waiting for somebody to explain "If the theory that a nationalized ID card would provide us security, shouldn't the social security number already be doing this?"

I'm 41, I remember well the crap that went down behind the iron curtain.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how Real ID is a step closer to "papers please". Can you explain it?

eta: and you do realize that in the Soviet Bloc the "papers" were official permission to travel in your own country, don't you? Kind of like in school when you had to have a hall pass to move around during class periods. It wasn't just an ID card.

Gradualism. IMO the real ID is another step to make it easier for the US to get to the papers please analogy. Not that there is anybody currently in the office who would go for that power grab. But who knows if somebody cloned Hitler.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the constitution that allows the federal government to create, nay enforce national standards for personal identification. If it is believed that the federal government should be allowed this power, then the constitution should be amended. What is the point of having a document that places chains on the federal government to only allow them to do anything they please? That is the proper procedure and I don't think anybody could argue otherwise.

We are also inconveniencing the majority of the population, further straining our economy because of the tax dollars that will be required to do this, to stop a small minority of criminals.

Like most laws this will only affect the people who follow it.

I still don't see how this will improve security.

Great Britain is doing this. The US annexed from Britain so we didn't have to follow their lead.

And of course there is that famous quote, "Those that give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither."

 

[Michael Redman]

As far as I can see, no one has even attempted to explain how this is a step toward anything more sinister, despite repeated inquiries. Can someone please explain the claim?

If the theory that a nationalized ID card would provide us security, shouldn't the social security number already be doing this?

Is a number as useful in identifying a person as a photo ID? Clearly not, but that's irrelevant. This isn't about a nationalized ID card.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the constitution that allows the federal government to create, nay enforce national standards for personal identification.

Are you saying the Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government power to regulate banking and air travel, or just that that power doesn't extend to regulating the identification necessary for opening a bank account or getting on an airplane?

And of course there is that famous quote, "Those that give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither."

What liberty is being given up?

 

[ServiceSoon]

The new national standard for personal identification of America's 300 million people was never debated on the congressional floor. It was hidden deep in the uncontroversial (although it should have been controversial) Iraq War/Tsunami bill.

The claim is that this move was necessary because it was a recommendation by the 911 commission, but the fact is that all of the terrorist had accurate-valid ID's. My understanding is that the problem the commission had is that some of the terrorist had multiple ID’s. You don't know what thoughts are in somebody's heart until they act on them. There are exceptions to everything. One exception would be if you could catch them conspiring to commit a heinous act.

As far as I can see, no one has even attempted to explain how this is a step toward anything more sinister, despite repeated inquiries. Can someone please explain the claim?

The Real ID could be used to accelerate the surveillance society. And while I have nothing to hide from the gov, neither did the Jews of Germany. The loss of personal data is a common occurrence across government.

Is a number as useful in identifying a person as a photo ID? Clearly not, but that's irrelevant. This isn't about a nationalized ID card.

What is easier to duplicate, a photo ID of John Doe which will be compared to a national database or know a personal identification number which will be compared to a national database? Oh, you say but but the social security number has been compromised because it is used by everybody from Government agencies to the private industry. If this ID works as well as everybody says it will then it will become the standard for personal identification which means you can directly relate it to the social security scenario above. BTW Only 2/3 of America's population holds a current drivers license.

Are you saying the Constitution doesn't give the Federal Government power to regulate banking and air travel, or just that that power doesn't extend to regulating the identification necessary for opening a bank account or getting on an airplane?

I am saying what I said. At this point I don’t want to fight the battles you are asking about above.

What liberty is being given up?

Liberty definition 2) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control. This program is unjust due to the aforementioned reasons.

 

[WildCat]

The Real ID could be used to accelerate the surveillance society.

How?

If this ID works as well as everybody says it will then it will become the standard for personal identification which means you can directly relate it to the social security scenario above.

Uh, Social Security numbers are already attached to driver's licenses. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that they were printed right on your driver's license here in Illinois unless you opted out (and I always did!).

BTW Only 2/3 of America's population holds a current drivers license.

So? There are other official state ID's besides driver's licenses. Believe it or not, states do realize that not everyone wants to or is able to drive a car.

Liberty definition 2) Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control. This program is unjust due to the aforementioned reasons.

What reasons? Seriously, getting Real ID opponents to specify the dangers is like getting 9/11 truthers to put forth a cohesive conspiracy theory for the events of that day. You haven't explained at all what new control the government has because of Real ID.

 

[Michael Redman]

What is easier to duplicate, a photo ID of John Doe which will be compared to a national database or know a personal identification number which will be compared to a national database?

Real ID doesn't create an ID that can be compared to a national database.

Oh, you say but but the social security number has been compromised because it is used by everybody from Government agencies to the private industry.

Compromise has nothing to do with it. You're completely missing the point. A Social Security card is of absolutely no use in identifying a person. All it has on it is a name and a number. It could be anyone's name, and anyone's number. No one accepts a Social Security card as ID.

 

[ServiceSoon]

The Real ID law mandates that your local BMV has to store copies of your social security card, birth certificate, photograph & any other documents you provide for proof of identification to obtain your Real ID card. This means thousands maybe millions of government employees would have access to everything that secures your identity.

The social security number was issued to track earnings of workers so they could be paid their retirement benefits. Before you can say (giant over-reaching governmental program which robs me of personal choice) government agencies and various private companies demanded this number to verify your ID. As the use become more popular, the reliability of the system declined. I believe the same thing will happen with the Real ID card. You are giving up your privacy for no benefit.

How?

In today’s USA the gov has secret watch list, sneak and peek warrants & secret wiretaps. At this time these programs haven't been used in a negative manner, other than violating American's right to privacy. But if the right person or rather the wrong person got into office these methods, which have been approved by America could be used in a cynical manner. How easy would it have been for Hitler and company to round up all of the Jews if they knew the address of every Jew in Germany?

Uh, Social Security numbers are already attached to driver's licenses. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that they were printed right on your driver's license here in Illinois unless you opted out (and I always did!).

When you are boarding a plane the person behind the counter could ask you for your name and social security number. Those two bits of information would be kept in an interconnected database of all the states (but this isn't to be confused with a national database) and checked for accuracy. You just verified the person’s identity. Do you realize you are able to board a plane without verifying your identity? You just have to go through extra security.

What reasons? Seriously, getting Real ID opponents to specify the dangers is like getting 9/11 truthers to put forth a cohesive conspiracy theory for the events of that day. You haven't explained at all what new control the government has because of Real ID.

I gave an example, you are just choosing to ignore it.

Real ID doesn't create an ID that can be compared to a national database.

I feel it is a de facto national ID card. All state records are connected together. How much more national can you get than that. Do you honestly think for one second that the federal government won't try to gets its hands on this database? Why do you say it isn't a national ID card?

Compromise has nothing to do with it. You're completely missing the point. A Social Security card is of absolutely no use in identifying a person. All it has on it is a name and a number. It could be anyone's name, and anyone's number. No one accepts a Social Security card as ID.

Please see above for my explanation on how it could work, why it didn’t & how Real ID won’t work. By the time we figure that out we will have increased the size and scope of government and wasted millions of American’s treasure.

 

[WildCat]

The Real ID law mandates that your local BMV has to store copies of your social security card, birth certificate, photograph & any other documents you provide for proof of identification to obtain your Real ID card. This means thousands maybe millions of government employees would have access to everything that secures your identity.

They already have that information.

In today’s USA the gov has secret watch list, sneak and peek warrants & secret wiretaps.

In what era did the USA not have any of these? And what does this have to do with Real ID?

How easy would it have been for Hitler and company to round up all of the Jews if they knew the address of every Jew in Germany?

Godwin much? The government already knows your address. Real ID doesn't add any more of your information to any database.

When you are boarding a plane the person behind the counter could ask you for your name and social security number.

The person behind the counter is not a government employee.

Those two bits of information would be kept in an interconnected database of all the states (but this isn't to be confused with a national database) and checked for accuracy.

This isn't even true. What makes you think this?

You just verified the person’s identity. Do you realize you are able to board a plane without verifying your identity? You just have to go through extra security.

Evidence?

I feel it is a de facto national ID card. All state records are connected together.

Your feelings are wrong, as is your claim about an interconnected database.

How much more national can you get than that. Do you honestly think for one second that the federal government won't try to gets its hands on this database?

You're worried that the Federal government will discover your Social Security number?

Why do you say it isn't a national ID card?

Because it's not.

Please see above for my explanation on how it could work, why it didn’t & how Real ID won’t work. By the time we figure that out we will have increased the size and scope of government and wasted millions of American’s treasure.

Paranoid rantings based on incorrect facts don't make it true.

 

[ServiceSoon]

They already have that information.

If they already have this information in a non-national national database then why are they asking for it again?

In what era did the USA not have any of these? And what does this have to do with Real ID?

Real ID is another worthless law that will infringe on privacy. Rarely do gov programs stay the same size. Social Security was sold to America’s as a program to track their eligibility for retirement benefits. It is now used to identify people. Social security was sold to America with a rate of 3%, then 8% with a promise that that rate would never increase, now it is at 15% and Hillary Clinton wants to increase that rate even more. It's incrementalism.

Godwin much? The government already knows your address. Real ID doesn't add any more of your information to any database.

I never suggested having no laws. I was just suggesting that this one could be a dangerous law.

The person behind the counter is not a government employee.

TSA isn't a gov employee?

This isn't even true. What makes you think this?

I know that isn't the current state of affairs. I was giving an example on how to use the current social security number to identify people. This way we don’t have to create another 5,000 gov jobs, instead improve the system we currently have.

Evidence?

You can board a plane without ID.

Your feelings are wrong, as is your claim about an interconnected database.[/quote]According to the Real ID law all states databases will be interconnected.

You're worried that the Federal government will discover your Social Security number?

Once again, I didn't say that. You are suggesting that this isn't a national database. What I am saying is that that the federal government will get its hands on the Real ID database.

Because it's not.

If this isn’t a national database what would you consider a national database?

Paranoid rantings based on incorrect facts don't make it true.

I gave an example that gov programs rarely stay the same size and I gave an example about how this system could be misused. I also spoke about how we could use our current social security numbers to identify people. I showed why the social security number is no longer a reliable way to identify a person and why Real ID would become unreliable after it became the accepted identifying document. Why is it paranoid and how is it incorrect?

 

[Michael Redman]

From the Department of Homeland Security:

Is this a National ID card?

No. The proposed regulations establish common standards for States to issue licenses. The Federal Government is not issuing the licenses, is not collecting information about license holders, and is not requiring States to transmit license holder information to the Federal Government that the Government does not already have (such as a Social Security Number). Most States already routinely collect the information required by the Act and the proposed regulations.


Who will have access to the information that the DMV will be required to collect?

As they do now, authorized DMV officials in the licensing State will have access to DMV records. DMV employees in one State cannot “fish” the records in another State. The proposed rule requires States to include a comprehensive security plan for safeguarding information collected, stored, or disseminated for purposes of complying with the REAL ID Act, including procedures to prevent unauthorized access, use, or dissemination of applicant information and images of source documents retained pursuant to the Act and standards and procedures for document retention and destruction.


Will a national database be created that stores information about every applicant?

No. The REAL ID Act and these regulations do not establish a national database of driver information. States will continue to collect and store information about applicants as they do today. The NPRM does not propose to change this practice and would not give the Federal government any greater access to this information.

http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686.shtm

I'm not claiming that this is without problems (cost being the most serious) but I just don't see a credible threat to liberty.

If people in power want to abuse their power and, for example, keep peaceful protesters off of airplanes, we certainly know that they can do that without Real ID.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I'd rather they get Apple to do this project so I could carry my iDentification.

 

[Michael Redman]

I'd rather they get Apple to do this project so I could carry my iDentification.

Yet another Marquis post that is both humorous and frighteningly plausible.

 

[Corsair 115]

TSA isn't a gov employee?

You mentioned behind the counter. That to me suggests the person at the gate who collects your boarding pass. Those folks are airline employees. When you first check in to get your boarding pass that person is also an airline employee.

You can board a plane without ID.

That was a domestic flight it should be noted.

 

[ServiceSoon]

From the Department of Homeland Security:

http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686.shtm

I'm not claiming that this is without problems (cost being the most serious) but I just don't see a credible threat to liberty.

If people in power want to abuse their power and, for example, keep peaceful protesters off of airplanes, we certainly know that they can do that without Real ID.

Oh, well, if he government department that created the rules says everything is ok then everything must be ok

You mentioned behind the counter. That to me suggests the person at the gate who collects your boarding pass. Those folks are airline employees. When you first check in to get your boarding pass that person is also an airline employee.

Let's say they are goverment employees and this check point is at the point where you have to go through TSA secuirty. Nobody is allowed in the area where you board a plane unless you make it past this point. Regardless of who does this check or where it occurs my example is easy to follow and logical.

Why does it matter if non goverment employees have access to these records. Are goverment employees more trustworthy? The information will find its way on the black market regardless.

That was a domestic flight it should be noted.

Hear ye hear he, let it be said that this was a domestic flight. So it has been written...or rather said.

Other countries should be able to make their own rules. At this point I'm not concerned what identification requirements other nations have.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'd rather they get Apple to do this project so I could carry my iDentification.

If you ever visit, they'll ask for that iD when you purchase the Grey Goose special, three bucks on Mondays at one watering hole, on Fridays at the other.

Sweet, friendly, sassy waitresses and barkeeps at both locales, what's not to like? I hope you'd not let the iD issue interfere with temporary iQ reduction, or loop loosening, whichever term you prefer.



DR