We Want To See Your Papers

[Corsair 115]

Let's say they are goverment employees and this check point is at the point where you have to go through TSA secuirty.

WildCat and I are not responsible for you not being entirely precise when you made your original comment to which he and I responded to.

Hear ye hear he, let it be said that this was a domestic flight. So it has been written...or rather said.

Domestic flights are not international flights. Let's see someone try and get on board an international flight without ID.

 

[Michael Redman]

Oh, well, if he government department that created the rules says everything is ok then everything must be ok

Ad Hominem. Show me where the rules contradict what DHS is claiming.

Let's say they are goverment employees and this check point is at the point where you have to go through TSA secuirty.

At that point, they simply visually check your ID to ensure you are the person identified. The TSA screener doesn't even have access to a computer.

In fact, the airline employees who check you in do not scan your ID and access a database to confirm your identity, either. They look at you and look at your ID, and then hand it back. Real ID just gives them more confidence that teh ID you presented is genuine. Where your ID gets scanned is when you travel internationally, and then you're required to present a passport, so Read ID is irrelevant.

 

[Earthborn]

None of this requires tricky technology, or encrypted data on each ID card. It's just a simple web query to a database and would work with the drivers license that is already in your pocket.

For such a webquery to be possible, there first need to be common standards on what information is on each ID card, on the formatting of the ID number, on the quality of the photo. It doesn't require tricky technology, but it does require something very similar to what I understand Real ID to be.

 

[WildCat]

For such a webquery to be possible, there first need to be common standards on what information is on each ID card, on the formatting of the ID number, on the quality of the photo. It doesn't require tricky technology, but it does require something very similar to what I understand Real ID to be.

And that is the whole point - standardized information on ID's issued by 50 states.

The fretting over this is ridiculous.

 

[brodski]

Well, that's why you want to stop it as many "levels" away from this as you can.

There's a new video on LiveLeak where a Russian police officer demands some guy's "papers". Yes, we need to stop this as many "levels" away as possible.

Well I've seen a video where a US cop stops someone and demands to see both their "licence" and their "registration", OMG the NWO is licencing and registering every US citizen!
Question, in what way does an ID card impinge on civil liberties? Be specific.

 

[ServiceSoon]

WildCat and I are not responsible for you not being entirely precise when you made your original comment to which he and I responded to.

Your'e right, that is my fault. I figured you two had the intelligence to follow my example without me writing a book. I won't make that mistake again

Domestic flights are not international flights. Let's see someone try and get on board an international flight without ID.

Really It makes complete sense for the destination country to have their own identification standards. I am not currently concerned about the id requirements of other countries.

Ad Hominem. Show me where the rules contradict what DHS is claiming.

I guess you could consider that a fallacy ad hominem. I consider it common sense to not trust the creator of the rules who describes the implications of those rules in a press release. A good example of this logic is America’s legal system. I’m sure you know what I am trying to say, but I want to explain due to a previous misunderstanding. The legislative branch makes the laws and the judicial branch deciphers the laws and makes decisions on the constitutionality of those laws.

I already explained why I consider this a national system.

At that point, they simply visually check your ID to ensure you are the person identified. The TSA screener doesn't even have access to a computer.

I am not saying that is the way the system currently works. I am explaining how the current social security numbers could be used to verify identification.

In fact, the airline employees who check you in do not scan your ID and access a database to confirm your identity, either. They look at you and look at your ID, and then hand it back. Real ID just gives them more confidence that teh ID you presented is genuine. Where your ID gets scanned is when you travel internationally, and then you're required to present a passport, so Read ID is irrelevant.

I am not currently concerned about international travel laws. I am concerned about America’s laws.

 

[Michael Redman]

I guess you could consider that a fallacy ad hominem. I consider it common sense to not trust the creator of the rules who describes the implications of those rules in a press release. A good example of this logic is America’s legal system. I’m sure you know what I am trying to say, but I want to explain due to a previous misunderstanding. The legislative branch makes the laws and the judicial branch deciphers the laws and makes decisions on the constitutionality of those laws.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you are trying to say, and I don't understand the point of your explanation.

Regardless, you don't have to accept DHS's interpretation of the rules. The fact remains that you haven't presented any evidence to show the key facts (no national database, no additional federal access to personal information) are not as presented.

I already explained why I consider this a national system.

It is a "national system", obviously, but not a "national database" or a "national ID", as claimed.

I am not saying that is the way the system currently works. I am explaining how the current social security numbers could be used to verify identification.

Yes, your SS# could be entered into a network, and your information, including picture, could be retrieved. So if the current system would allow the harm you claim might come from Real ID, it really isn't creating anything new we should worry about, it is?

In fact, by creating a picture ID that can be relied on, it is less likely that anyone would feel compelled to access a network to confirm ones identity. If you can trust the card you don't need any additional information.

 

[volatile]

Can someone explain to me how having all my personal data (including biometrics, medical history and all the rest, as is proposed for the UK ID card) in one database, and on one card I have to carry around with me at all times, makes identity theft less likely? You only have to see how the UK government deals with ID security at the moment to see how more data centralisation can only be a bad thing.

As soon as you have one centralised card that is taken to be as, or more, secure and reliable than a multiplicity of various documents, you are clearly making ID theft easier.

Also, in order to get an ID card in the first place, you must surely have to present some other, pre-extant ID. This makes no sense whatsoever, particularly as these new ID cards are supposed to be more secure, or more reliable, than the old documents they are intended to replace.

A national ID card is nothing more than monumentally expensive theatre, and it will likely have the opposite effect to that it was designed to have. I'm against these on pragmatic grounds, not just ideological ones.

 

[Michael Redman]

A national ID card is nothing more than monumentally expensive theatre, and it will likely have the opposite effect to that it was designed to have. I'm against these on pragmatic grounds, not just ideological ones.

Who is suggesting a national ID card?

 

[volatile]

Who is suggesting a national ID card?

The UK government.

 

[Michael Redman]

I thought the UK already had a national ID card.

 

[Michael Redman]

What problems would a national ID card present that a state card does not? California has 36.5 million people in it. Why is a California-wide ID card not a threat to privacy, but a national card is?

 

[volatile]

I thought the UK already had a national ID card.

Nope. The government are lobbying hard for its introduction, though.

 

[Michael Redman]

So who issues ID in the UK that you can use at banks and airports, etc.?

 

[volatile]

So who issues ID in the UK that you can use at banks and airports, etc.?

The UK Passports Agency, the DVLA, the NHS, Customs and Excise...

The data isn't centralised, and I am not compelled to carry it around with me on one easily-lost, easily-stolen, easily-forged card. None of these holds my fingerprints, iris scans or DNA. None of these hold my medical records, or details of my family.

 

[WildCat]

easily-forged card.

If someone forged your current ID they could obtain all that other information anyway, and have a much easier time stealing your identity to do so.

 

[volatile]

If someone forged your current ID they could obtain all that other information anyway, and have a much easier time stealing your identity to do so.

The only ID I routinely carry is my driving license. You cannot get a passport, National Insurance number, medical records etc. with a driving license, and nor are these details on the riving license itself.

The proposed UK ID card puts all these things, and more, in one place - my pocket, where I can and will lose it, or it will get stolen, not to mention on one database, which, when hacked or sent on CDs in the post, is similarly vulnerable. At least when the Child Support Records got lost in the post, they didn't include everything about every person on the list...

How is that more secure than having my data segregated and on numerous, use-specific pieces of documentation? How does putting everything about me, including my DNA profile, in one place, make my identity more secure?

 

[WildCat]

How is that more secure than having my data segregated and on numerous, use-specific pieces of documentation? How does putting everything about me, including my DNA profile, in one place, make my identity more secure?

Because it will be nearly impossible for anyone to steal your identity. Hard to copy someone's DNA profile, for example.

I have no idea, though, why medical records would need to be on the card.

 

[Michael Redman]

I don't know why anyone would think keeping medical information on a card was a good idea. It would be difficult to keep current. A better idea would be to access the records over a network, and use the ID to identify whose medical information is to be retrieved.

Someone who steals your card could then have access to your medical records, but only if they were also authorized to access medical records generally. And, of course, if they are, they can currently access your medical records as it is now, with or without access to your ID card.

 

[volatile]

Because it will be nearly impossible for anyone to steal your identity. Hard to copy someone's DNA profile, for example.

Assuming the data on these cards is readable, which it must be by definition, then a forger could take all my records and replace the biometrics with HIS on a fake card. Putting everyone's data in one place is asking for trouble, and will do nothing to achieve any of the aims it is supposed to.

Please explain how it will be impossible for someone to seal my identity if all my identity details are right there in easily readable format (and, if they use RFID, readable from a distance)?

I have no idea, though, why medical records would need to be on the card.

Quite.

As I said, in any case these cards, however secure they are in themselves, can be no more secure than all regular ID we already have, which we are told are ineffective.

How do I prove to the authority issuing the new ID cards who I am, so they'll give me one? By supplying them with my current passport, driving license etc.!