Merged The challenge is coming to an end.

Wowbagger said:
I feel a bit ticked off at this news. When I learn more about the circumstances, maybe I will feel better.

But, right now, I wish I was a multi-millionaire, so I could re-donate the money, and keep the challenge going.
Click to expand...


Perhaps now is a good time to remind everyone that they can raise money for the JREF simply by searching the internet using goodsearch.com. Yes, yes indeed, perhaps now is a good time. Do your part, Mr. Bagger!

Thank you and good night.
 
The Atheist said:
Looked worth more than $0-02 to me.

How are people outside of this forum seeing it? It hasn't made much impact through Google, which gave the following:

Dawkins Hardly raised a ripple, with only half a dozen posts, supportive.

Some "Shroomery" place with four or five posts which say nothing [allowable in this forum].

A "Bad Idea" blog which actually thinks it's a good idea. That the site has a psychic ad on it may or may not be relevant.

Some atheist group on MSN which really likes the challengers being smacked around, but don't offer any real opinion on its removal.

And a Techo forum where the details were posted but have attracted no comment at all.

I think the minimal interest outside of this forum tends to support the idea that the challenge isn't providing value for money.
Click to expand...


Herein lies the problem. The challenge is not being USED. It simply sits out there waiting to be taken. As I previously stated, the MDC should be utilized as the tool it is. First, the JREF should do what it said it would do and take the challenge and throw it in people's faces. Rub their noses in a million dollars that is simply there for the taking. Second, use the MDC as an educational tool. The very nature of the rules and what it is meant to "test" make it an excellent focal point. Other people and organizations don't "care" about the challenge because it doesn't appear like the JREF even cares about it.

As has been discussed over and over again, education is the most important part of critical thinking. So educate, teach, demonstrate, allow the public (teachers, students, housewives, doctors, plumbers, electricians, etc...) to see what the JREF is all about. Use that giant neon million dollar sign attract attention, then use it as a guide to educate those people.

I know these are all lofty, and expensive goals, but a million dollars of operating capital isn't going to last long. It currently still exists, and is, all by itself, one of the biggest education tools the JREF has available; if they would only use it.


Just another two cents.


Santa
 
Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?
 
Hi there.

As a member of the Independent Investigations Group (www.iigwest.org) I just wanted to mention that the IIG $50,000 Paranormal Challenge will continue. We have been involved in several JREF Challenge applications over the years and we will miss that partnership, but we can understand the reasoning behind it.

-Derek
 
NobbyNobbs said:
Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?
Click to expand...

Of course this doesn't tell us much. If the money was spend in other ways, then those might attract people just as the MDC used to. Maybe even better.
 
I wouldn't have found the JREF if it weren't for the challenge, as I was sent here by someone challenging me on my own claims of psychic ability. The forums here have helped me turn my life in a whole new direction, so I am very sorry to see it go.

I learned very valuable lessons that I wasn't learning from any of my new-age peer groups, or anywhere else I turned for advice. I learned why I thought I could do what I claimed, and how to live with the fact that much of my world view was ... well... ridiculous.

I have made several friends that have vastly enriched my life, found answers when I needed them, and support when I needed that. Although much of this comes from the forum, I wouldn't have been here if not for the MDC in the first place. I know a few others here can say the same.

So - apart from the external face of the MDC... the knock-on effect of having people come here to see what it's about is going to be missed now, and I think that's sad.
 
NobbyNobbs said:
Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?
Click to expand...


chillzero said:
I wouldn't have found the JREF if it weren't for the challenge, as I was sent here by someone challenging me on my own claims of psychic ability. The forums here have helped me turn my life in a whole new direction, so I am very sorry to see it go.

I learned very valuable lessons that I wasn't learning from any of my new-age peer groups, or anywhere else I turned for advice. I learned why I thought I could do what I claimed, and how to live with the fact that much of my world view was ... well... ridiculous.

I have made several friends that have vastly enriched my life, found answers when I needed them, and support when I needed that. Although much of this comes from the forum, I wouldn't have been here if not for the MDC in the first place. I know a few others here can say the same.

So - apart from the external face of the MDC... the knock-on effect of having people come here to see what it's about is going to be missed now, and I think that's sad.
Click to expand...

The two above quotes are EXACTLY what the MDC and the JREF are all about. The challenge is more than just a gimmick, it's more than just a challenge, it's very much like a giant neon question mark floating in the air with an arrow point down at a box. People hear about the MDC, they read about the MDC, and they want to know what it is all about. They want to know WHY some old guy is willing to put up a million dollars for a challenge. It's a way to get someone's foot in the door to critical thinking.

Simply put, the MDC is not used enough. People are not drawn to it because they are ignorant of it. People don't care because they don't understand.

Rasmus said:
Of course this doesn't tell us much. If the money was spend in other ways, then those might attract people just as the MDC used to. Maybe even better.
Click to expand...

This is a legitimate question. The problem with spending the money in other ways is that it is being spent, then what? The MDC does not go away and is a perfect tool to draw others in. Use this tool instead of allowing opportunity to go to waste.



Santa
 
Santa666 said:
This is a legitimate question. The problem with spending the money in other ways is that it is being spent, then what?
Click to expand...

It could just be invested less conservatively and without the possibility to cash it out on short notice. (The MDC depends on the fact that the money is *there* as soon as it's won, and that it is available in *full*.)

So, no, it wouldn't have to be spend in order to be made use of.

The MDC does not go away and is a perfect tool to draw others in. Use this tool instead of allowing opportunity to go to waste.
Click to expand...

I am sceptical that it is the perfect tool. It might well be the best we have at the moment. But we might come up with something else, maybe even something better.
 
I´m also quite disappointed to see the MDC go. It was what made me come over here and get exposed to a lot of interesting facts.

I also agree that the MDC isn´t publicised enough. In spanish speaking countries almost nobody has ever heard about it. I was actually looking forward to have some more free time and a new faster internet connection and try to offer my "two cents" and do something to get Randi more available for spanish speakers (translations, blogging etc.). I´ve also been thinking that having a test carried out over here in Spain should attract a lot of local media attention on the MDC and skepticism in general (very necessary over here, and specially in Latin American countries). (Oh, how I´d love to participate in a test!)

I´ve never understood why the media doesn´t ever mention Randi and the MDC, when to me it looks like a great source of fascinating stories and ideas for tv programs etc. It almost looks like there is some sort of conspiracy to avoid featuring anything Jref related and keep people in the dark. Now, if some fool reports having seen a ghost he´ll get all the media attention he doesn´t deserve... I know it´s not a conspiracy, just human nature, but still...

Anyway, I´d vote to KEEP THE MDC.

Por favor!
 
I see the demise of the MDC as a good thing, but it would be a shame to lose the debate it generates. I don't know if there is a way this can be retained without the million dollars sitting there, but if it could that would be great.
 
Abooga said:
I´ve never understood why the media doesn´t ever mention Randi and the MDC,
Click to expand...

Because it's the same rhetoric every time. And if they report on a woo story and then mention the MDC more than a couple of times, they're creating a bias.
 
I've had a few hours to digest this now, and I still feel its a bad thing.

The MDC was the reason I heard about James Randi. The MDC was the reason I looked up the JREF website. The MDC area of the site was often the most educational part, and as a result I learned a huge amount regarding scientific method, double-blind testing and the like - much of which I wouldn't have taken in had it not been for the challenge. The MDC was the main hook I used in discussion with fence-sitters and its illustrative power was clear to see. I even know other people who know Randi because of the MDC.

If theres some grand scheme to use the money for something specific which will blow the whole lid off woo in a big way then fair enough, but until I hear of such a thing I think the only thing that will happen is the money will gradually disappear and that will be that.

Someone else mentioned the timing of the announcement and the possible link to the winding up of the JREF, and this would make sense. The JREF as an organisation is still ridiculously small however manages to consistently punch above its weight in skeptic circles. Essentially its a library, a website, a few dedicated staffers and a ridiclously charasmatic head figure in Randi. The MDC may not be actually taken up by many people but its power is the mechanism by which the JREF has become even remotely 'well known'. Without the MDC and more specifically without Randi as a full-time driving force (the man will still be hugely influential but is bound to retire sooner rather than later), the JREF simply won't exist. Without an obvious successor and/or the size to be 'bigger than one person' it seems clear to me that its days are numbered. Without the two factors above and without a new mystery idea as mentioned earlier (which I am skeptical even exists), there is essentially a library that few people ever visit and a few staffers running a regular skeptic website.

For that reason, I suspect this is all geared towards a reduction of the whole JREF organisation over the next few years, with it disappearing completely whenever Randi either dies, or decides that he cannot continue flying the flag and needs to take things completely easy.

Personally, the ideal situation would be bringing in and over time grooming a successor as figurehead (who that would be is open to obvious debate) with the JREF *AND* the MDC remaining as Randi's ultimate legacy. Failing that, continuing to a point where the MDC and library can move over to ownership by the CSICOP would be a second-best option.

Of course, Randi may well be realising that the MDC will continue working but won't create a new 'impact' that feeds his adrenaline/ego/whatever in the time he has left, and so this is a way of having a last stab at really nailing something, but whilst I could understand that I fear it is a doomed strategy. We have already seen the changes last year to the MDC having the effectiveness of a damp rag, I suspect this desire to make such a fundamental change will end up the same way.

And finally, in closing (and apologies for boring everyone), I agree with whoever it was that suggested ending the award in the next few months if you are going to end it. Not only will it enable whatever projects are lined up (if such beasts exist) to be brought forward, but it will remove the obvious claims that the JREF is now biased towards people not succeeding with the challenge.

Now its been announced, can the thing. Keeping it for another two years is just pointless in the extreme.

But I'd rather it not go at all
 
I'm sorry to see the MDC go away. It was Randi's appearance on a programme where I saw him testing different claims from Russians that got me here, long before I made my first post. I think the MDC was part of the test, but I really don't remember.
The JREF has been vital in honing my own critical thinking skills, but the MDC has been a powerful tool in getting fence sitters, who wouldn't otherwise bother to investigate the matter themselves, to think about whether paranormal powers really exists. Without the MDC, it could easily end up as just being a matter of some saying they do, and some saying they don't.
If I tell someone in a casual conversation that no paranormal powers has ever been verified, how are they to check? If, on the other hand, I tell them about the MDC, it would be easy for them to check that the money is actually still there, and has never been collected, which naturally begs the question "why?"
I'm sure it wouldn't be the same if I told them that the money had been there for 10 years, but unfortunately wasn't anymore.
 
I have an idea!

How about Randi continues to run the Challenge, but lies about the $1M? The psychics say this is really easy to do---hacking into Goldman Sachs, the IRS, and the Florida DOR, presumably with the collusion of shadowy government agencies. The challenge would go pretty much the same way: professional psychics don't apply, the actual applicants don't win. It'd be like fishing with lures instead of with earthworms, right?

Of course, when a psychic begs off the challenge with the excuse "The money isn't real, anyway", either (a) we'd all snicker or (b) they'd win, because, otherwise, how could they have known?

;)
 
A "Bad Idea" blog which actually thinks it's a good idea. That the site has a psychic ad on it may or may not be relevant.
Click to expand...

It's not relevant, in part because as far as I can tell, it isn't true. As far as I know, I don't have any ads on the blog at all, much less a psychic one. I'd love to know what you took to be an ad though, or if wordpress is somehow magically not showing me and me alone the ads it has peppered all over the blog.

I think this is a smart move for the reasons I listed: because it will allow the MDC do be much more pointed. It now has a once in a lifetime deadline: that makes for much better PR. And once it's all over, the MDC will have a nice period at the end of it instead of an open-ended feel. If Sylvia Browne is going to avoid any and all objective testing in perpetuity, there comes a time when we can say enough is enough: she had ten YEARS and still couldn't get her act together.

Other challenges will probably fill the void, as well as, of course, just regular science. And meanwhile the JREF will have the flexibility to think up something even better. Think of it less as ending the challenge and more as starting a new chapter in advocacy.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom