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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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The truth of the matter is, LTC...you can't answer the question.....because you have no backbone....and no personal integrity.


Here are some other questions I've asked you, that you can't answer....





It's a pleasure watching skeptics refuse to answer questions. It happens rather frequently with these "critical thinkers" ;).....and is a sign of fear...pure and simple. :)
:D:D:D

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Hypocrisy sucks:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3276937#post3276937

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3256068#post3256068

For a start.
 
This is the point behind my questioning LTC....it's to show that skeptics simply take a position based on their preferential belief.
Yet another question for Sweaty to dodge:

Can you reasonably show that you are not simply reversing what is true of you?

As a bonus:

Whyever should I think that Patterson more likely filmed a bigfoot than a man in a suit?

Here's some (and there are many more) very good reasons why I shouldn't:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3269861#post3269861
 
BTW, donde es kk?
Estoy aquí.

But the thing is, I got chased (or scared away) by an unknown creature, then witnessed it just observing us. I can't undo that.
You absolutley can undo that because it's you that are doing it in the first place.

For example, intentional or not, the way you write the above anecdote gives the impression that you are relating one experience. You know that's not the case. You obviously can't resist storytelling to sell your fantasy play.

1st anecdote: You have never shown that you were pursued/scared away by anything, let alone that it was any type of creature.

2nd anecdote: By your own account both people with you disagreed with your apparent pareidolic observation.

Nevertheless, bang the drum as loud as you like. Your anecdotes only make bigfoot look more hilarious.
 
After god knows how many decades of experts looking at this stuff, looking at all the "evidence", listening to all the rambling stories, and coming up with absolutely SQUAT: I think its ok for LTC to claim that the objective default position is that Patty is a hoax until proven otherwise.

:)
 
kitakaze wrote:
Whyever should I think that Patterson more likely filmed a bigfoot than a man in a suit?

Which explanation is "more likely" is irrelevant to the question I've been asking LTC.

It doesn't matter if a hoax is more likely, or Bigfoot is more likely.....because LTC's statement was "Patty IS a man in a suit."...as if it is a definite.

If LTC had said "Patty is "MOST LIKELY" a man in a suit"....then your question would would be relevant.

There's a big difference between the use of a word which refers to something in a "definite" sense, and a word, or phrase, which refers to something in a "probable" sense.
 
Got Filtration?

Well I can see how you might think that but there have been cave bears, dire wolves, irish elk or deer in europe, giant birds in the polynesian islands and large animals in many places.

Usually the 'giganticism' of NA is from looking at a snap shot of geology.

There is a history of large and small animals everywhere and sampling bias could be the culprit.

I made direct comparisons with direct relative species. I thought JREF members could discern subtleties, but I was wrong.
You've lost my respect already.
 
In Depth and Out Dated

Lets examine your "gigantism" reasoning a bit deeper.

First, lets assume its correct, and North America's fauna during the Pleistocene had an overall tendency to be larger than anywhere else. Presently there are no fossil evidences for any apes (other than humans, of course), large or small in North America (not even in Asia near the land bridge). So, the argument -if its core supposition is correct- is just a speculation.

Now, lets check the core of the reasoning- North America's fauna during the Pleistocene had an overall tendency to be larger than anywhere else. Well, it does not seem to be correct. Yes, there were species that were larger than today's, but the same was valid for other parts of the world not to mention that many species were shared with other places. Mammoths, for example, also lived in Europe and Asia; mastodons also lived in South and Central America. Giant terrestrial sloths lived in North, South and Central Americas and the same is valid for the giant terrestrial predatorial birds. Panthera atrox, the extinct North American lion (whose habitat extended southwards to Peru, BTW), the european cave lion (Panthera leo fossilis) and the European and Asiatic lions provide another example of a widespread genus. Europe and Asia had the Woolly Rhinoceros. To this, we could add bisons and elks, for example.

The specific example you cited, the saber-toothed cats (Smilodon genus) also shows that the argument is flawed. Smilodons were spreaded across the Americas. The largest species (S. populator) was from South America (3m, ~400kg); North American species (S. fatalis) some 30cm smaller. The North American lion could be larger but were of a lighther build (I found estimates varying between 2.5 and 3,5m, but remember that Smilodons had short tails). European cave lions were about the same size.

As a sidenote, some people say that given the bulk composition of the Pleistocene fauna, Africa is the last place in the world where the megafauna (or somehting roughly like it) still lives.

At last but not least, you could argue that the Pleistocene was a time of giants (the name megafauna has a reason, after all). But there's a drawback- setting the standards for "normal-sized". How can one tell, for example, if those animals actually were giants or if the current fauna is mostly composed of dwarves? Large animals quite often appear in the fossil register, after all.

I could go on and talk about other problems with the reasoning. The bottomline is that its core presuptions have flaws (North America's Pleistocene animals were not larger than those from somewhere else and there are no fossil records of apes -other than humans- in North America), and it fails to provide a backing to bigfeet as real animals.

A word of caution- there's no need to "explain" the size of bigfeet. What's needed are reliable evidence to back its existence. So far, none was obtained, as far as I know. Thus, the "not real" option becomes the dominant position.

Show me bears as big as grizzlies.
Show me elk as big as ours.
Show me buffalo as big as ours.
Show me moose as big as ours.
Show me wolves as big as ours.
Or show me a bunch of excuses, in depth.
 
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Which explanation is "more likely" is irrelevant to the question I've been asking LTC.

It doesn't matter if a hoax is more likely, or Bigfoot is more likely.....because LTC's statement was "Patty IS a man in a suit."...as if it is a definite.

If LTC had said "Patty is "MOST LIKELY" a man in a suit"....then your question would would be relevant.

There's a big difference between the use of a word which refers to something in a "definite" sense, and a word, or phrase, which refers to something in a "probable" sense.
Right, I don't give a rat's behind LTC's answer to the usual semantics games you're up to lately yet profess to disdain. As always you'll try and live tomorrow by dithering around in non sequiturs if it grants you an inch to squirm with your preferential beliefs. Once again you don't fail to demonstrate truth is irrelevant to you, only a desperate maneuvering. Remember in 'Dumb and Dumber' when the girl tell's Jim Carrey's character something to the effect that she wouldn't date him unless he were the last guy on earth and he responds, "So, you're telling me I have a chance." That's you.

Nevertheless, a phrase for you to savour- you've failed to answer my question yet again.
 
After god knows how many decades of experts looking at this stuff, looking at all the "evidence", listening to all the rambling stories, and coming up with absolutely SQUAT: I think its ok for LTC to claim that the objective default position is that Patty is a hoax until proven otherwise.

:)
Indeed ...

Roger Patterson's failure to give little more than lip service, to going after the very Bigfoot he claims to have filmed, shouts HOAX, louder than any of the problems with the film itself .

I have no problem with the idea that a Bigfoot may very well look like a very bad, cheap suit . Sadly, ideas are all we have at this point..
 
I think you should shut your trap.
Classy.

You've lost my respect already.
Cue violins.

You like to tease Neal, but at least he realizes that he is defending a fringe position.
When someone posts art and tells you it's an un-debunkable photo of bigfoot and refuses to acknowledge it, what do you think he should be realizing?

You are the outright nuttiest person I've ever come across. Your posts are meaningless, and hateful. You are downright despicable. And insane.

ETA: Go ahead and cry foul, you hypocrite. Or have Correa Neto do it, and reaffirm how duplicitous you are.
I'm sorry logic and reasoning has that effect on you but somehow I feel short-changed without getting accused of bigotry like Correa. Still, your bigfoot tales aren't getting any more plausible.
 
SweatyYeti used the word "inhuman" when referring to Patty's body proportions here.

Getting back on topic, I'm rather confused by some of Mr. Munns' comments over at those BFF threads. Didn't Dfoot do a fur-covered muscle padding demo using fake fur? So why doesn't Munns think that foam padding under fake fur can show muscle movement (according to this site, it can)? Has no one informed him that some of the "muscles" are actually due to lighting or that others (such as Stan Winston) have pointed out that the fur is obviously fake?

Also, his talking about the difficulty of making fake breasts with fluid movement is odd. Has anyone pointed out that Patty's breasts are pretty rigid and that the slight movement that they do show at one point is consisted with a stiff chestpiece on a costume? My browser has issues with not showing all the posts at BFF, so please feel free to let me know if those issues have already been raised.
 
kitakaze wrote:


Which explanation is "more likely" is irrelevant to the question I've been asking LTC.

It doesn't matter if a hoax is more likely, or Bigfoot is more likely.....because LTC's statement was "Patty IS a man in a suit."...as if it is a definite.

If LTC had said "Patty is "MOST LIKELY" a man in a suit"....then your question would would be relevant.

There's a big difference between the use of a word which refers to something in a "definite" sense, and a word, or phrase, which refers to something in a "probable" sense.


Sweats, it is definite. Patty is a bloke in a suit. There is no doubt about it. And for the sake of all the other posters who are way beyond tired of hearing about it I'm not going to say why. But you know, and you can't debunk it.
 
Well, are we talking animal robotics, or animatronics? Animatronics is the term that was applied to the dinosaur exhibit on tour. They made a point of telling everyone how new and exciting this was.

Seeing as how I posted proof that animatronics (both the technology and the word) existed in 1964, I'd imagine they were referring to the dinosaurs themselves being new and not the general concept of animatronics. It could also be possible that they were misleadingly playing up the use of new advances in animatronics in the displays. Kind of like how some department stores put up signs reading "All prices 50-70% off" with "compared to our competitor's prices" in smaller print, knowing that most people will only pay attention to the large print and rush inside.
 
I wouldn't try to count.

Sorry, I screwed up my wording in that last post. What I meant to ask was if that issue got raised over at the recent BFF threads by Bill Munns.

Anyone know what the latest cop-out for Patty's too-low, hairy rockets is?

To quote Mr. Munns...

So one could argue that Patty has that odd butt mass because the suit maker was trying to make the body more apelike. If so, this suitmaker, who obviously knows a thing or two about ape vs human anatomy, should have also known that female great apes do not have breasts like human females. So we have the intriguing contridiction that one aspect of apelike anatomy (the lowered butt, and shorter leg illusion) was added to give a more apelike appearance, while another aspect of anatomy (the breasts) were added which emphatically are not apelike at all. Does this suitmaker have a split personality, on the one hand trying to be anatomically responsible to apelike forms, while on the other hand being completely and conspicuously irresponsible in adding a totally non-apelike feature?

If it's a suit, you really have to wonder if the fabricator was completely deranged, or just an incredibly determined to create a paradox. The contridictions really don't add up.

I continue to look at it and keep asking:

Why an ape butt but human breasts?
Why apelike body and humanoid face?

Frankly, I find the breasts a rather convincing suggestion that the PG figure has ancestoral links to an early hominid, such as A. Boisei or A. aethiopicus instead of Giganto. Just a thought.

It seems that he's saying "Nobody who could build a suit that could fool me would make such a mistake, so it's probably real." Only time will tell if he'll take note of Patterson's knowledge of the Roe sighting (as mentioned in the same thread). By the way, anyone here posting at BFF is free to make note of this in regards to the Roe sighting.
 
Sweats, it is definite. Patty is a bloke in a suit. There is no doubt about it. And for the sake of all the other posters who are way beyond tired of hearing about it I'm not going to say why. But you know, and you can't debunk it.
GT, I am quite certain that Sweaty will love your post and take the time to respond. Such are the posts he loves. Since he doesn't like your posts about Patty's arm, you should ask him if he thinks the inhuman proportions he attributes to Patty appear consistent throughout the film. Say, like Patty's arms.

Sweaty of course has carefully avoided answering the questions I posted for him.
 
Seeing as how I posted proof that animatronics (both the technology and the word) existed in 1964, I'd imagine they were referring to the dinosaurs themselves being new and not the general concept of animatronics. It could also be possible that they were misleadingly playing up the use of new advances in animatronics in the displays. Kind of like how some department stores put up signs reading "All prices 50-70% off" with "compared to our competitor's prices" in smaller print, knowing that most people will only pay attention to the large print and rush inside.

The dinosaur exhibit was kinda popular. But, I don't need much excuse to visit our museum anyway.
 
Let's

Lets examine your "gigantism" reasoning a bit deeper.
.

I posted evidence, by way of photos. I have specimens readily available. I have photos, videos and audio. But, I've found it more welcoming at the forum that Drew recommended. You're free to stalk me there.

But, I got you pegged now. The reason that you find anecdotes and reports so despicable is because (I suspect) you found yourself in an uncomfortable situation regarding information that you received. If you're suspected of acting in a personal or unprofessional manner, you will find natives and locals will give you information that may be detrimental if acted upon.

So what was it? Find yourself crawling through a snake den, or something?
 
Sorry, but your argument was examined and found lacking. North America's Pleistocene megafauna was part of a broad zone wich extended itself from England and went around the world towards East roughly untill New York. Many genus and species were shared (mammoths, horses, camels, lions, etc.) and were about of the same size. Smilodons BTW, were smaller than tigers. Not to mention that even if your reasoning was correct, the absence of ape fossils (other than humans) in North America would render it nothing but a speculation. And theres another obvious point I have not touched yet... I will leave it for you to find it out- if you can.

Your evidence- pics of dogs of different races- is meaningless. Not to mention that now it seems you are claiming this alleged "gigantism" of North America fauna can be seen nowadays and is not restricted to the megafauna times...

Once again, you painted yourself at a corner by presenting wrong information. Just like in the case of the animatronics. If you want to have any meaningfull debates here or aniwhere else, I suggest you to stop the bickering, the whining and the ad homs. Discuss the issues themselves.

If you don't like to see your arguments being examined, countered and eventually smashed, sorry, but this is the very nature of this place. Your evidence or argument was torn in to shreds? What can you do? Improve the quality of your evidences and reasonings or accept the fact they are not enough, at least for us. Ad homs and whining will not help you. Remember, if you can't stand the heat...

Maybe you should consider sticking to places where your arguments perhaps will have a warmer reception (MARBC, BFF, TSBF). And I say "perhaps" because I think that at BFF a weak argument such as "North American gigantism" would have its holes noticed and exposed.

Oh, here are the reasons I find anedoctal data unreliable (not despicable):
1. I informed myself about its characteristics.
2. In the case of fringe subjects, such as bigfoot, they have several internal and external inconsistent elements (such as a bigfoot report where the creature itself was never seen but the witness knows it was a bigfoot).
 
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