Merged The challenge is coming to an end.

[Kaylee]

The first thing I thought when I read this was that this may mean that there are no plans to have the JREF continue after Randi retires.


My understanding is that in the USA, a non-profit either has to manage its assets according to its stated purpose or according to any restrictions attached to their grants -- or turn them over to another non-profit with a similar mission. In other words, at the end of a non-profits organization's "life", it is not an option to have the assets turned over to former management or other individuals to do with as they would like.

So perhaps the intent is to start using up the JREF's assets, albeit on worthy causes -- and not think in terms of a sucessor to JREF or in terms of which other non-profit organization would "inherit" the JREF's assets.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

I disagree - a million (and the passive income it provides) is HEAPS to run a small organization (which the JREF is) - particularly when such organization now has VERY little on its slated agenda. Beyond Randi's public appearances (which generate revenue & are cashflow positive), a package holiday once a year (revenue positive), a meeting (or two) a year (should be revenue positive), a volunteer run & funded forum (cashflow neutral), a weekly online newsletter (small expense) and a few sporadic mailed-out publications (small/moderate expense) - what are the planned expenses? Nothing that has been expressed to the membership! (apart from some VERY minor educational scholarships - which while a step in the right direction, are certainly not major budget line objects.)

Doesn't JREF also offer scholarships?

This is the key to my argument. Discontinue the challenge because its run its course - fine. WHAT is now the mandate & plan of attack? As a multi-year member of the JREF (membership fees fully paid), a regular attendee of TAMs and TAAs, and a vocal supporter, this recent announcement leaves me saying 'now what?'.

I'd hazard a guess, along the lines of the "E" in JREF- education. Then again, as JREF is small, more money would expand the organization.

What competition against better funded churches is even underway? Has the JREF ever stated that 'competing' against churches is part of its mandate? We have a pot of money that while, pales in comparison to some other organizations is SOMETHING - and is something that a lot of organizations would be very pleased to have. If not the challenge, then now what?!?!? And for Ed's sake, please do NOT let the answer be 'I'll tell you later...' - because that just does NOT cut it.

-AH.

Perhaps it's American bias, but given the assault the the rapture league is having on education, I see that rationality in general is in competition with well the heeled hallelujah crowd.

Again, I'd hazard a guess of education. CSI reorganized last year with the same goal in mind. They do not have a challenge. They are distancing themselves for testing paranormal claims and focusing on science and critical thinking education.

"I tell you later-" is fine by me for now. It means plans are in the works and perhaps not finalized. I'll wait. However, those who are impatient and think it's not a good thing are under no obligation to contribute anything else financially to JREF. JREF is not the Department of Revenue. No one is going to garnish wages.

 

[CrossHair]

I disagree - a million (and the passive income it provides) is HEAPS to run a small organization (which the JREF is) - particularly when such organization now has VERY little on its slated agenda. Beyond Randi's public appearances (which generate revenue & are cashflow positive), a package holiday once a year (revenue positive), a meeting (or two) a year (should be revenue positive), a volunteer run & funded forum (cashflow neutral), a weekly online newsletter (small expense) and a few sporadic mailed-out publications (small/moderate expense) - what are the planned expenses? Nothing that has been expressed to the membership! (apart from some VERY minor educational scholarships - which while a step in the right direction, are certainly not major budget line objects.)

This is the key to my argument. Discontinue the challenge because its run its course - fine. WHAT is now the mandate & plan of attack? As a multi-year member of the JREF (membership fees fully paid), a regular attendee of TAMs and TAAs, and a vocal supporter, this recent announcement leaves me saying 'now what?'.

What competition against better funded churches is even underway? Has the JREF ever stated that 'competing' against churches is part of its mandate? We have a pot of money that while, pales in comparison to some other organizations is SOMETHING - and is something that a lot of organizations would be very pleased to have. If not the challenge, then now what?!?!? And for Ed's sake, please do NOT let the answer be 'I'll tell you later...' - because that just does NOT cut it.

-AH.

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

I think that's over-reacting a bit. I don't feel that those of us who are not upset over the end of the MDC are cult followers. MDC was a gimmick for PR. Its time has passed and time to move on. As whatever future plans appear to have been discussed with the contributer of the $1 million, and he understands, so I'm going to wait before I run screaming that the sky is falling.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why would anyone assume no answers as to what next will be forthcoming? Seems a bit out of character with JREF.

And I'm pleased to hear about the change in CSICOP to CSI, focusing on science education and critical thinking. I haven't been to their web site in a while. Guess I'll have to check it out.

 

[rjh01]

Remember JREF have got two years to work out what they are going to do with the money. So 'we will tell you later' is an invitation to us to start a thread on the subject that will run for two years and then...

 

[CrossHair]

I think that's over-reacting a bit. I don't feel that those of us who are not upset over the end of the MDC are cult followers. MDC was a gimmick for PR. Its time has passed and time to move on. As whatever future plans appear to have been discussed with the contributer of the $1 million, and he understands, so I'm going to wait before I run screaming that the sky is falling.

You are only a cult follower if you do not want to know what is going on, what is going to happen, and blindly follow without questioning. If you have faith that all will be revealed and are patient, then that is fine but not very skeptical. As for the "the sky falling" I am sure that I, and you, will be fine. This decision is big enough that it will have a large effect on everyone involved directly and peripheraly with JREF, but it isn't earth shatering otherwise.

Obviously a lot of thought went into this decision so why not have complete transparancy? I don't believe that this move was made with the only plan being to figure out what to do over the course of the next two years!

 

[Miss Whiplash]

You are only a cult follower if you do not want to know what is going on, what is going to happen, and blindly follow without questioning. If you have faith that all will be revealed and are patient, then that is fine but not very skeptical. As for the "the sky falling" I am sure that I, and you, will be fine. This decision is big enough that it will have a large effect on everyone involved directly and peripheraly with JREF, but it isn't earth shatering otherwise.

Obviously a lot of thought went into this decision so why not have complete transparancy? I don't believe that this move was made with the only plan being to figure out what to do over the course of the next two years!

Who said I was following blindly?

The info on the MDC has just been announced. We've been told more will come later. I take it that all future plans have not been finalized at this point in time. As leaks and gossip spread about things of this nature, it was very appropriate for Randi give us an official statement on the end of the MDC with other details to follow. In the mean time, I'm not going to jump to conclusions that Randi and JREF are doing something nefarious with the $1 million. If others want to lapse into hysterics and rend outer garments over the announcement, they may do so. I, however, have no reason to follow them.

 

[Miss Whiplash]

Why would anyone assume no answers as to what next will be forthcoming? Seems a bit out of character with JREF.

And I'm pleased to hear about the change in CSICOP to CSI, focusing on science education and critical thinking. I haven't been to their web site in a while. Guess I'll have to check it out.

I can see the point. Focusing solely on debunking paranormal claims is limiting. It does unintentionally associate skeptics with woosters to the casual passer-by.

Personally, I'm not surprised about the end of the MDC. It was mentioned this summer somewhere on this forum that JREF was moving more toward education. The reorganization of this forum to make it more accessible to schools followed not long after. Ending the challenge and changing direction is a logical step.

Let's face it- confronting woos and blowing them out of the water gets attention. But at the end of the day, education reaches more people and advances skepticism more than having Sylvia Browne fail the MDC.

 

[yairhol]

If this had already been said then I appologize.
My thoughts on the end of the MDC is why does it have to be all or nothing?
The $1M challenge is a great weapon for the skeptics arguing with woo woos (I've used it many times before to silence woo believers) but if some of that money needs to be spent on other 'projects' then why not lower the sum to say $250,000? The other $750,000 can be used for whatever and $250,000 is still a good sum of money to draw in the paranormals.
Long live the $$$ paranormal challenge (no matter the sum of money).

Regards,
Yair

 

[rjh01]

If this had already been said then I appologize.
My thoughts on the end of the MDC is why does it have to be all or nothing?
The $1M challenge is a great weapon for the skeptics arguing with woo woos (I've used it many times before to silence woo believers) but if some of that money needs to be spent on other 'projects' then why not lower the sum to say $250,000? The other $750,000 can be used for whatever and $250,000 is still a good sum of money to draw in the paranormals.
Long live the $$$ paranormal challenge (no matter the sum of money).

I will second this motion.

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

Let's face it- confronting woos and blowing them out of the water gets attention. But at the end of the day, education reaches more people and advances skepticism more than having Sylvia Browne fail the MDC.

I'm going to disagree slightly, and add to what I wrote earlier.

I can't think of anything more educational than confronting woo head-on with actual science. I get the impression it's the first time many believers (and not just test subjects) are forced to grapple with the gritty particulars of the scientific method. And in an entertaining, publicly accessible way, no less.

For that reason, I hope Randi will leave open the door for future testing, even if an MD isn't involved.

 

[Rasmus]

why not lower the sum to say $250,000?

We can certainly argue about the usefulness or effectiveness of the challenge. I agree that the actual amount - as long as it's relatively high - doesn't make much of a difference.

However, running the challenge means a lot of work and tied up resources for the JREF other than the mere price money. I think discontinuing the challenge will have a lot of impact here, more so than just on the monetary side of things.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

On the one hand, I can understand the reason for discontinuing the challenge, but on the other, I'm very disappointed.

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."

That million dollars was not only ammunition for the JREF against woo, but it was a weapon all of us could yield. What do I use now?

 

[Rasmus]

On the one hand, I can understand the reason for discontinuing the challenge, but on the other, I'm very disappointed.

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."

That million dollars was not only ammunition for the JREF against woo, but it was a weapon all of us could yield. What do I use now?

Same here. But I have to admit that yielding the MDC didn't make a difference, either. I may be losing the only weapon I had, but I am losing an ineffective weapon. Maybe that will force me to go look for something better.

 

[The Atheist]

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

While Randi's alive, I doubt that's going to happen, but I agree with everything else you've said.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I think the whole thing is getting a bit tiresome, so I don't think I'll miss it.

However, if you have a paranormal ability, why not apply now, grab the million, and screw the JREF out of the money? Then all the JREF employees who are going to get fat and lazy on the income from the million will be out on the street. You'll have the last laugh! The JREF will have shot itself in the foot. Mwahahaha!

~~ Paul

 

[yairhol]

I've attracted at least a couple of people to the JREF website solely based on the MDC. It'll be dearly missed. Again I note that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. $250,000 is still a good sum of money to attract others be they woo believers or fellow skeptics.

Regards,
Yair

 

[arthwollipot]

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."

Someone posted the answer to this earlier in the thread. "For ten years, James Randi offered a prize of a million dollars to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal phenomena under controlled observing conditions. Of the thousands who applied, not one succeeded."

 

[Nucular]

I disagree with those who would argue for the retention of a smaller prize pot.

Rather than cheapen the prize, I think it's a lot classier to, as RSLancaster suggested, make a 'Zero Dollar Challenge', partly as a way of visibly keeping the testing function of the JREF at the fore, partly by way of gently poking fun at the change, and also to answer any of those who have declined the test on iffy financial grounds (i.e. "I can't use my powers for gain", etc.).

This would have the effect, I would hope, of generating press interest allowing a platform to restate the goals of the JREF - e.g. Randi being invited onto shows to be asked "why should anyone apply now that there's no prize?"

All or nothing is far more interesting than just reducing the pot.

I'd also add that, though I'll miss the shorthand argument of "there's this guy offering a million dollars...", the other sceptical prize pots in the world add up to a fair whack (I think there's a SkepticReport article on that), and I've found myself increasingly saying lately anyway "forget the million dollars, you could get a Nobel prize if you can reliably do that!"