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10 story hole in WTC 7

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...you can not cherry pick one of NIST's findings while you totally disregard their findings in other areas, that is disregarding without being able to substantiate your reason for doing so in any reasonable manner.

Clearly NIST is loath to declare any official WTC7 findings.

For years, in spite of their government clout and enormous resources, NIST has waffled on the WTC7 report.

Maybe they hope all the distracting spin generated here will solve their problems or allow them to delay indefinitely.

MM
 
You know, one of the things that CTers seem to overlook is the unorthoday structural arrangement of the building, which is explained at some length in the preliminary report, and incorporated some weird and wonderful things such as reuse of pre-existing foundations even though locations weren't optimum.

Do they really overlook this?

You really think it's news to the 9/11 truth movement that at the time, WTC 1 and WTC2 were the tallest buildings in the world and used suspension architecture?

You really think the 9/11 Truth Movement is unaware of the special requirements of WTC7 because of the hydro sub station? That we are unaware of Truss #1, Truss #2 and Truss #3?

And if those "weird and wonderful things such as reuse of pre-existing foundations even though locations weren't optimum" why hasn't NIST or FEMA made a big case out of it?

Well you are wrong Architect so dream up some other topic maybe some research on the fossil count in the bedrock.

MM
 
Maybe they hope all the distracting spin generated here will solve their problems or allow them to delay indefinitely.
MM

That I would say is a big self delusion of grandeur if you Miragememories think that NIST's engineers are wasting their time reading what we write here, instead of completing a long and painstaking investigation to get all the details right as far as possible. And they have to get the details right because their findings from the WTC investigation are changing the way large buildings are built.
 
Wow. What an amazing hoax this 'inside job' is. They are even getting the building codes changed. Beautiful.

Is there no end to the power and influence of the NWO?
 
And if those "weird and wonderful things such as reuse of pre-existing foundations even though locations weren't optimum" why hasn't NIST or FEMA made a big case out of it?
MM

Oh yes, NIST is making a big case out of their WTC investigation, including WTC 7, the findings from the investigation are changing the way buildings are built, as I pointed out to you in my last post Miragememories.

So while you and Christopher 7 are deluding yourself about controlled demolitions that never happened, NIST is working hard to make future buildings safer. But changes in building codes is a long and boring bureaucratic process that is not exactly front page news or prime time television news stuff. But nevertheless the findings from the WTC investigation is a big case within the building industry. And at their December 18th meeting the National Construction Safety Board concluded that the findings from the WTC 7 investigation will have an even greater impact on the building codes than the findings from the WTC 1 and WTC 2 investigation. This is due to the fact that the collapse of WTC 7 was more like a ordinary office fire and did not involve an aircraft impact. (Recording of the meeting at 1:18:23 and the next minutes.)

I would recommend that both you and Christopher7 listen carefully to the whole meeting. The members are concerned with the vulnerability of large floor spans to fire, they are in no way whatsoever concerning themselves with your or Christopher7's self delusional CD ideas. They are working in the real world where the results of their work has a direct impact on the safety of the occupants of existing and future buildings.
 
I'm curious as to Chris' response to why experts are bothering to change building codes in response to the NIST and other reports if they are so obviously full of crap.
 
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I'm curious as to Chris' response to why experts are bothering to change building codes in response to the NIST and other reports if they are so obviously full of crap.

I'm sure in their minds it's all part of the massive cover-up.
 
That I would say is a big self delusion of grandeur if you Miragememories think that NIST's engineers are wasting their time reading what we write here, instead of completing a long and painstaking investigation to get all the details right as far as possible. And they have to get the details right because their findings from the WTC investigation are changing the way large buildings are built.

Meanwhile 7 years later buildings keep going up and NIST with no sense of concern or urgency is supposedly continuing it's "painstaking investigation"..ya right.

MM
 
I'm curious as to Chris' response to why experts are bothering to change building codes in response to the NIST and other reports if they are so obviously full of crap.

I don't believe Chris or anyone else has ever claimed that NIST doesn't continue to have an important role in revising building codes.

MM
 
Meanwhile 7 years later buildings keep going up and NIST with no sense of concern or urgency is supposedly continuing it's "painstaking investigation"..ya right.
MM

I will recommend that you take your time to study the below real life investigation Miragememories, at the least read the Pittsburgh Tribune article. NTSB had to work real hard to convince Boeing that something was wrong with their Boeing 737's and that it was necessary to upgrade every Boeing 737 world wide to prevent future accidents. Similarly NTSB have to work hard to convince the industry that code changes are necessary, changes that will make it more expensive to build new buildings. Things like this take time, you can not throw in unlimited manpower and think that the investigation will be completed any faster. You need a team of experts who can work with the case over time and familiarize themselves with every detail to get to the bottom of it. This is real life, and in real life things do take time, and very often far more time than you thought it would when you started, as any one who have worked on large projects know.

And once again NIST is pushing for code changes based upon the findings from the WTC investigation so far, and have been doing so for a long time. And many new buildings (like the new WTC 7) are built with specifications exceeding the current codes because of 9/11. But some time in the future when 9/11 is a distant memory the owners of new buildings will be more concerned with cost than exceeding the codes to be on the safe side, then it will be really necessary to have updated codes in place.

What you and Christopher7 do not understand, is that a proper investigation contains far, far more than just looking at some videos and conclude that it was a CD.

In real investigations it can take several years to pinpoint the cause of the accident. And they have to look at all likely causes and chains of events that can explain the accident. And sometimes they are not even able to find the cause of the accident.

A example of this is Flight 585 that crashed in Colorado Springs in 1991. It took 10 years and one more accident (Flight 427) before a updated and final report from NTSB was adopted that pinpointed the cause. The first report was finished in 1992 with undetermined reason. The NTSB reports on Flight 585 and Flight 427 you will find here. In the case of Flight 427 NTSB used 5 years on the investigation before the report was finished.

Newspaper articles about the investigation:
The Seattle Times
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

And as you should know, after the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. And they started their work in 2002.
 
I'm curious as to Chris' response to why experts are bothering to change building codes in response to the NIST and other reports if they are so obviously full of crap.
I don't believe Chris or anyone else has ever claimed that NIST doesn't continue to have an important role in revising building codes.
MM

Neither have any one of us accused you, C7 or anyone else of having claimed that, as far as I know. But why did you choose to comment on NIST's general responsibilities, while you totally avoided twinstead's comment that clearly was written in reference to the NIST WTC investigation and other reports regarding WTC, and especially to you and C7's claims about a inside job controlled demolition of WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7 that never happened?
 
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And your totally unsubstantiated point about controlled demolition C7 is also now moot, and have been so since the day WTC 7 collapsed, since NIST has stated repeatedly that:

Did you see this Christopher7. (For new readers: The 5th floor is the floor where the pressurized diesel fuel fire could have occurred. It is also to be noted that blast scenarios also could be caused by naturally occurring backdraft somewhere in the building)

Based on the above work NIST maintains and narrows the cause of the initiating event in their working hypothesis:

NIST December 18, 2007

This is a two way street C7, you can not cherry pick one of NIST's findings while you totally disregard their findings in other areas, that is disregarding without being able to substantiate your reason for doing so in any reasonable manner.
Not so.

I can accept that which i know to be true and reject that which i know to be false.
I have previously listed the facts that show there were no diesel fuel fires in the area of the AIE, and the facts showing that debris damage did not have a significant structural effect on the AIE.

NIST has now come to the same conclusion using those same facts.
The working hypothesis is based on an initial local failure caused by normal building fires,
not fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines or fuel from day tanks.


I accept their conclusion because i already knew it was true.

I do not accept their denial that WTC7 looks like a CD.
CD discussed here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3293996#post3293996

This thread is about the lack of evidence to support the NIST hypothesis [set of assumptions] that DD/F caused the collapse of WTC7.

After 106 pages of debate, it turns out that i was right about:

The debris damage did not have a significant effect on the initiating event that led to the implosion of WTC7.

There were no diesel fuel fires in the AIE.


That leaves "normal building fires".

There were fires on several floors, at different times, in the area of the initiating event.
[the failure of core columns 79, 80 and/or 81]

Fires in east half of WTC 7

NIST L-24
11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.
Looking from the southeast corner to the south face:
Fire on floor 12*, moved toward the east face
[NIST did not publish this photo]

2:00 to 2:30 p.m.
Fire on floors 11 and 12 at southeast corner, progressed to the north
[Louvers = north east generator room]

*corrected to 12 in Final 4-5-05
copyofe5asn4.png


NIST L-24
Around 3 p.m., fires were observed on Floors 7 and 12 along the north face.

11kp0.jpg


copyofnorthfacekj6.png


Some time later, fires were observed on Floors 8 and 13, with the fire on Floor 8
moving from west to east and the fire on Floor 13 moving from east to west.

copyof3kt0.jpg


NIST L-26

The fire on Floor 8 continued to move east on the north face, eventually reaching the
northeast corner and moving to the east face.

Around 4:45 p.m., a photograph showed fires Floors 7, 8*, 9, and 11 near the middle of the north face;
Floor 12 was burned out by this time.
[NIST did not publish this photo]

*The fire on Floor 8 had already burned that part out.

NIST L-38-41
A core column, weighing over 4 tons per floor, would have to be uniformly heated to about 1,000 F on 4 contiguous floors and 2 or 3 floors would have to collapse all around that column, before it could break at 3 splice joints and buckle.

Fires in the Meridian Plaza burned out of control over 8 contiguous floors for 19 hours.
Beams and girders sagged and twisted but they did not collapse.
“Despite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage.”
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-049.pdf pg 19 [24 on pg counter]
The columns in WTC 7 were heavier and would take longer to heat up.
 
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My bad, my apologies. It was GStan nitpicking and babbling.

Your point about diesel pipes is now moot because NIST has stated that "fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines" were not a factor in the initiating event that led to the implosion of WTC7.

I presented you with a list of factual statements consistent with a collapse by debris and fire damage. I even clarified some based on your comments. Given how many such statements can be made in the case for dd/f and how few can be stated in support of CD, I'm not surprised that you chose not to respond to my revised list; nor am I surprised that you dismissed it as nitpicking and babbling. I don't care if you believe 7 was a CD; it is certainly not impossible, but you are being willfully ignorant in your continued failure to acknowledge that the evidence for debris damage and fire is far greater than that for CD. There is nothing inherently wrong with believing that 7 was a CD, but implying that the evidence favors it is intellectually dishonest.

BTW, some more 'nitpicking'. Why, in your statement above about NIST, is "fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines" the only part in quotes? Nevermind, I already know. It because NIST has never made the statement "fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines were not a factor in the initiating event that led to the implosion of WTC7." Nor did they even imply that statement. If they have, please show where. Otherwise, please stop manipulating their words and misinterpreting their work. They have removed diesel fuel fires from their working hypothesis of the initiating event cause because there is not enough evidence to support it. They are trying to prove a hypothesis that is supported by the evidence. Since the evidence does not support the diesel fire, they are not including it in the working hypothesis. This does not mean that you can definitively state, as you love to do, that were no diesel fires. NIST has stated also that they found no evidence of blasts or explosives and they are not including that in their working hypothesis. By your logic, shouldn't that be twisted to mean that definitively, there were no blasts or explosives? No. You have persisted in mangling NIST. Your argument could just as honestly and persuasively be made by stating that "evidence suggests that a diesel fire in the area of the initiating event is possible, yet highly unlikely." Its accurate and honest. The fact that you continue to extrapolate unfounded assumptions and overstate your case is transparent, and shows everyone that the argument you are making is baseless, pathetic and weak.
 
I presented you with a list of factual statements consistent with a collapse by debris and fire damage. I even clarified some based on your comments. Given how many such statements can be made in the case for dd/f and how few can be stated in support of CD, I'm not surprised that you chose not to respond to my revised list; nor am I surprised that you dismissed it as nitpicking and babbling. I don't care if you believe 7 was a CD; it is certainly not impossible, but you are being willfully ignorant in your continued failure to acknowledge that the evidence for debris damage and fire is far greater than that for CD.
The only evidence for DD/F is the fires in the AIE.

BTW, some more 'nitpicking'. Why, in your statement above about NIST, is "fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines" the only part in quotes? Nevermind, I already know. It because NIST has never made the statement "fires from leaking pressurized fuel lines were not a factor in the initiating event that led to the implosion of WTC7." Nor did they even imply that statement. If they have, please show where. Otherwise, please stop manipulating their words and misinterpreting their work. They have removed diesel fuel fires from their working hypothesis of the initiating event cause because there is not enough evidence to support it. They are trying to prove a hypothesis that is supported by the evidence. Since the evidence does not support the diesel fire, they are not including it in the working hypothesis. This does not mean that you can definitively state, as you love to do, that were no diesel fires.

Your argument could just as honestly and persuasively be made by stating that "evidence suggests that a diesel fire in the area of the initiating event is possible, yet highly unlikely." Its accurate and honest.
Why can't you accept reality?

There is no evidence to support DFF in the AIE and there is no reason to think there were DFF in the AIE.

NIST has concluded that DFF were NOT a factor in the IE.

It's impossible to prove a negative and evidently, that's what it will take for you to admit that there were NO DDF in the AIE.
 
I think we should all give Chris a big hand for his courageous efforts and hard work here.

MM

What you do with your hands is your business MM.

Meanwhile 7 years later buildings keep going up and NIST with no sense of concern or urgency is supposedly continuing it's "painstaking investigation"..ya right.


yeah, we know how much stock you put into actually doing any research there MM.
 
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Ouch.

Coming from such a respected, heavy duty, read world wide, researcher such as yourself jaydeehess that really cuts me to the quick.

MM

Ever find any evidence of that stairwell in WTC 7 that has windows that allow a view of the towers MM?

Ever find any evidence of missile strikes, like eyewitnesses or missile parts, MM?

Ever decide what type of air-to-air missile that might have enough explosive in it to actually cause anything more than superficial damage to a steel building, MM?

No, I thought not. Just throwing out wild speculations and to hell with any research right MM?

On the other hand you were refering to the researchers at NIST who do take the time and make to great effort to research what they are investigating(yeah they have a budget to do so, its kinda required), not me in the post I quoted. How apropos that you respond with a sarcastic snip at me. not
 
NIST has concluded that DFF were NOT a factor in the IE.

Really?
The way I read it is that , given the lack of evidence of a deisel fuel fire in the area of initial failure, they are going with an office contents fires senario.

That's a far cry from them stating that they conclude that there definitely was no deisel fuel fire. Yeah, I know, its a distinction that you just cannot comprehend, just cannot fit into your world. Much like the concept of 'up' in a 2-d universe.
 
The only evidence for DD/F is the fires in the AIE.

Correction, the only available hard evidence for the collapse initiating event is the fires in the area of the initiating event.

I suppose there is some merit in making a distinction in the argument between the initiating event and the subsequent global collapse progression. I agree that the only hard evidence for the initiating event is fires in that area. As far as the global collapse progression, all of the other observed fires and damage would definitely have played some role.

Why can't you accept reality?

There is no evidence to support DFF in the AIE and there is no reason to think there were DFF in the AIE.

Accept reality? I agree that no evidence was discovered in support of a diesel fire in the AIE, AND that I don't believe that there was one there. What am I not accepting? No evidence suggests dff in the aie. I don't believe in a dff in the aie. I'm not going to make the unprovable, fallacious, dishonest leap to claim that dff in the aie is impossible, as you have done. Your persistance in doing so shows a weak argument and poor logical/critical thinking skills.

NIST has concluded that DFF were NOT a factor in the IE.

It's impossible to prove a negative and evidently, that's what it will take for you to admit that there were NO DDF in the AIE.

You love stating that it is impossible to prove a negative. You have repeated it a number of times in this thread. SO WHY DO YOU CONTINUOUSLY INSIST THAT THE NEGATIVE HAS BEEN PROVEN? Why do feel the need to claim that 'there were no DFF in the AIE' when
1) that cannot possibly be proven,
2) it is a dishonest assertion, and
3) stating that DFF in the AIE was 'highly improbable' will serve the same purpose in the argument you are making.
 
Really?
The way I read it is that , given the lack of evidence of a deisel fuel fire in the area of initial failure, they are going with an office contents fires senario.
Right

That's a far cry from them stating that they conclude that there definitely was no deisel fuel fire.
I disagree.

There is NO evidence of DFF in the AIE.

There never was any reason to think there was a DFF in the AIE.

At any rate, the working hypothesis has excluded DFF.

The office fires were on floors 8, 11, 12 and 13 in the AIE.
 
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