Is U.S. education truly getting worse?

[Chris Haynes]

High school...oddly enough, textbooks from the 20s and 30s are not available online...so sorry, no link--LIIIIINNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!...

Still it is up to you to prove it. Do something, scan the title pages and post them on JREF (a decent scanner costs about $100). Can you do that simple task?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Still it is up to you to prove it. Do something, scan the title pages and post them on JREF (a decent scanner costs about $100). Can you do that simple task?

Hmm...since there are (hold on)...3 scanners, any one of which cost 5 x that at least (part of multifunction machines) around me, not sure why I'd need some cheapy scanner like that....

I'm sorry, what were you muttering about?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

So you can't provide the title, author, publishing company, and/or Library of Congress information so that interested parties can go and find copies of them?

This makes your mocking of the diorama HILARIOUS.

No, I can't. That's because they are on the bookshelves in my storage area and I am not going to go get them.


RE: mockery. Indeed it does. I believe, though, that we were also offered the alternate of making a diorama, and since I made scale model dioramas all the time when I was prolly 12-14, I believe I made one of those for xtra credit.

This, by the way, was probably the ONLY thing I did in that class as the math would've been far beyong my ability.

And your presenting this is this way--you believe you are mokcing...me?--makes you out to be a fool. Not because you are mocking me (I later taught myself math) but because you are making my argument FOR me...your own ignorant, public school-bred inability to recognize that that is what you are doing (others in here who would rather open a vein than agree with Tokie see this, it's just too bad they are too cowardly to say something) speaks...poorly of both your public screwels edjamakashun AND your current standing as an "educator."

This, folks...is what we are dealing with.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

no, and i never said i took 'many.' hence the operative word 'few.' hopefully you can see the difference.

well, at least you can admit you're not smart enough to keep up. next try working on the narcissism.

exactly.

holding your breath, obviously. if you're not going to read it, don't bother responding to it.

you really need some new material.

Hmmm...did you take "few" or "a few." There's a distinction. I guess you dint' know that!

It's not a matter of smarts, tho unlike others in here, I'd be about the last person on the planet to say ol' Tokie's very smart! It's a matter of time. There'd have to be 6 Tokies (my, what a pleasure that would offer the world!) to handle all the mean, nasty, vituperative, vitriolic, venomous (I sure like v words!), puling, hysterical anti-Tokie rants that take place in here.

But at least then I'd have time to respond to the 2 rational ones I saw.

Holding my breath in what? Stasis...like the climate before AGW? A bottle? Like a message? Your heart, for all time?

Actually, no...I don't. You see, libbies like you have been throwing out the same tired old platitudes, slogans, bromides screed and cant for decades. My accurately, and reapeatedly describing those platitudes, slogans, bromides, screed and cant as the platitudes, slogans, bromides, screed and cant these platitudinous, sloganeering bromides, screeds and cant are, is quite in keeping with those who speak in platitudes, slogans, bromides, screed and cant.

Like um, well...you.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

That might all be true, but we'll never know without some actual data to examine. For my part, I scored in the 99th percentile on every standardized test I ever took, graduated with honors from top-tier schools for both my graduate and undergrad degrees. I even quit a different job to become a teacher. My pay sucks compared to what I did before teaching, my "bennies" aren't all that great (I get to pay half-price for some crappy health insurance, and I get a total of 10 days paid vacation per year, plus around 9 weeks of forced, unpaid "vacation" during which time I work other jobs. I do it because I'm good at it, and it's not all that hard, so I can put most of my energy into other things, like my family.

Let's break this up.

Actually, no...we don't need any numbers in here, because the problems are not going to be fixed in here. We can see that by the simple absolutist denial that there ARE any problems by professional "educators" in here. I think, so far, one, has admitted that the problems even exist, without shrieking for a link--LIIIIINKKKKKKK!!! He padded that with lots of "um..yeah, but I still hate Tokie!!!" stuff, so hopefully if anyone is able to identify him (he's a teacher I guess) that will somehow save his career.

Your bennies are wonderful and your job is secure for life, and you know it. Most people would cut off a limb to have your lifetime medical, dental, mental health and vision coverage and your retirement package is fabulous.

Teachers alway seem to forget this when talking about their pay package. People in the real world understand it's all part of the same package. Your pay, by the way, is calculated on a 12-month period, which is why (if you are under contract) you get paid during the summer.

The last statement is the most important one. Most teachers do what they do because yes, it's not that hard (after the first year or two--or shouldn't be...if it is, you are an idiot) and because yes, they can then put most of their energies elsewhere...and do. If I did that at MY job, I would go out of business inside 3 months.

See the difference? And yet you consider yourself a "good" teacher, don't you?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Mine too. It's just that I've never witnessed such a thing, myself.

I'll give you that. I know I despise most other people's kids. Just makes the "tough love" part of the job that much easier.

Because private schools are better, silly. Plus, when I was a kid we used to beat up the teachers' kids whenever we could get away with it, and certainly never let them play our reindeer games.

Okay, so how would you go about fixing them? Try to stay within the realm of the politically possible.

Not sure what you are saying ...that I am LYING about my experience? Kids are not stupid. They are unlikely to tell you to your face that you suck as a teacher. I encouraged my kids to tell their "teachers" who sucked that they sucked and told them, no worries...I will back you up, with money, guns and lawyers if necessary...but kids are kids, and most won't do this, and mine are far too polite and far more concerned with others' feelings than is the old man, so they didn't do it.

And that is what I see a LOT of when subbing: teachers who truly HATE the kids they are teaching. I despised one of the kids in my 5th grade class of 25. All the others I wanted to bring home with me when I was "asked to resign." I connect with a lot of kids just in one day of subbing, and they've told me similar things many times. Given, and I know this, a sub has a lot more freedom, frankly, than does a contract teacher. Yes, I know of all the things--admin, parents, curriculum--that tie your hands. That's why I was fired: I refused to use most of the nonsensical district curriculum..I chose to TEACH instead and my reward for bringing up 20 kids's (sorry, you can't reach them all) math and reading and writing was...a pink slip.

Nice. My kids' private operates on a shoestring, which does, periodially, impact teaching, which is one reason we took them out (the sci and math teachers that were any good, left).

Fixing: nothing will get fixed until the unions are outlawed. That's not going to happen.

So that leave school choice. Of course that's not going to happen as long as the NEA is able to pump MILLIONS into defeating such attempts every time they pop up on a state-by-state basis.

That leaves one possible fix: someone in Congress with the balls to tell the NEA to piss off and introduce fed. legislation making school choice a federal law.

If we don't do it that way, it won't happen and our schools will continue to fail our children.

Tokie

 

[Chris Haynes]

Hmm...since there are (hold on)...3 scanners, any one of which cost 5 x that at least (part of multifunction machines) around me, not sure why I'd need some cheapy scanner like that....

I'm sorry, what were you muttering about?

Tokie

Scan the title page and post it on here of the old math book that you think is better than the ones today.

Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension?

 

[Prometheus]

Let's break this up.

Actually, no...we don't need any numbers in here, because the problems are not going to be fixed in here. We can see that by the simple absolutist denial that there ARE any problems by professional "educators" in here. I think, so far, one, has admitted that the problems even exist, without shrieking for a link--LIIIIINKKKKKKK!!! He padded that with lots of "um..yeah, but I still hate Tokie!!!" stuff, so hopefully if anyone is able to identify him (he's a teacher I guess) that will somehow save his career.

Your bennies are wonderful and your job is secure for life, and you know it. Most people would cut off a limb to have your lifetime medical, dental, mental health and vision coverage and your retirement package is fabulous.

Teachers alway seem to forget this when talking about their pay package. People in the real world understand it's all part of the same package. Your pay, by the way, is calculated on a 12-month period, which is why (if you are under contract) you get paid during the summer.

The last statement is the most important one. Most teachers do what they do because yes, it's not that hard (after the first year or two--or shouldn't be...if it is, you are an idiot) and because yes, they can then put most of their energies elsewhere...and do. If I did that at MY job, I would go out of business inside 3 months.

See the difference? And yet you consider yourself a "good" teacher, don't you?

Could I hire you to come over and explain to our human resources department about all these perks and bennies I'm supposed to have? As I said, I get half-priced health insurance, which does NOT continue if I leave my job. It does not include dental. Vision care is included but with exhorbitant co-pays. My pay is figured hourly, based on classroom hours. I don't get paid for meetings, training sessions, test-scoring, homework grading, lesson-planning, or anything else that my job requires me to do outside of class. When I figure all the time I spend doing this into the picture, including the 50% of my health insurance premiums that are paid for, and my 10 days vacation, my pay-rate averages out to $11/hour.

I do NOT get paid during the summer, nor do I get paid for school-vacation periods during the rest of the year (unless I use my 10-days vacation allowance, or my 7-days sick time. My retirement package consists of a mutual fund which I'm required to pay into and which is partially matched. If I rely on that for my retirement then I'd better not live more than a few months after I stop working. Because of this glorious retirement package I am rendered inelligible to collect Social Security. The "Job security" line just made me laugh. I am a contract employee, and I have a 9-month contract. Every September I have to sign a paper acknowledging that my employment is contingent upon continued funding from the State, that my employment could end at any time without notice, and that, in any case, it's only for 9 months. I have to re-apply for my own position with an updated resume every year.

I don't know why *most* teachers put up with this kind of crap. I only know why I do. And, no, I'm not a "good" teacher; I'm an excellent teacher, and I consider that my job is easy for me precisely because I'm so good at it. Many of my colleagues seem to consider the job a lot more difficult than I do. Also, most of them do not have the advantage of having had a previous, lucrative career that allowed me to build up some savings, and that I can easily go back to if I get sick of being underpaid.

 

[joobie]

Hmmm...did you take "few" or "a few." There's a distinction.

as it says in the first post, 'a few.' try and keep up in the future. i know this reading bit is tough, but...

Holding my breath in what?

here's a tip. go back and read the post you're responding to. then you might actually have an idea what you're talking about.

Like um, well...you.

maybe you'd like me to call the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulence for you?

 

[joobie]

Scan the title page and post it on here of the old math book that you think is better than the ones today.

Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension?

alternatively he could just tell us the name and publisher of the book. that is, if it actually existed.

 

[Prometheus]

Not sure what you are saying ...that I am LYING about my experience?

I'm not accusing you of anything. I just have not had the type of experience you're describing, and without data, I don't know how prevalent such experience may be.

And, BTW, I don't hate you--don't know what ever gave you that idea. I'm at least as frustrated by some of the problems in education as you seem to be. Some of my opinions are even in substantial agreement with yours. But they are just that--opinions. The single biggest problem with all education is a lack of good data (you may have noticed that I've not included any in my posts here). Anecdotes are everywhere, but the truth is that nobody can even begin to understand and fix the problems now because we don't even really know what the problems are beyond vague assertions that seem to follow political lines rather than scientific ones.

As I mentioned near the beginning of this thread, I take issue with the sort of test comparisons in the OP, not because I think our education system is fantastic, but because the tests themselves, and the methods of administering, scoring, interpreting, and rendering policy based on them are all severely flawed. I've not yet found any source of data on education that I consider trustworthy.
So perhaps our schools really do suck compared to other countries, or perhaps not. I can readily find a wealth of anecdote going both ways, and my own experience has been mixed.

 

[LostAngeles]

No, I can't. That's because they are on the bookshelves in my storage area and I am not going to go get them.


RE: mockery. Indeed it does. I believe, though, that we were also offered the alternate of making a diorama, and since I made scale model dioramas all the time when I was prolly 12-14, I believe I made one of those for xtra credit.

This, by the way, was probably the ONLY thing I did in that class as the math would've been far beyong my ability.

And your presenting this is this way--you believe you are mokcing...me?--makes you out to be a fool. Not because you are mocking me (I later taught myself math) but because you are making my argument FOR me...your own ignorant, public school-bred inability to recognize that that is what you are doing (others in here who would rather open a vein than agree with Tokie see this, it's just too bad they are too cowardly to say something) speaks...poorly of both your public screwels edjamakashun AND your current standing as an "educator."

This, folks...is what we are dealing with.

Tokie

And yet, you, "passed," with a D. A D may be a passing grade, but not by much. It's certainly no grade I would ever boast of. Such as my B+ in high school Calculus in which I did no homework and never cracked the textbook? Those were the days. Now my professors make homework anywhere from 10-75% of the grade and actually working with the material is necessary.

So let's see, you make assertions you don't feel you need to justify because they're, "obvious," like the textbooks from the 1920s and 1930s. You mock someone else for having made a diorama for history class in high school and boast of your incredibly awesome drawing/collage in high school and can't see your own double standard?

There are numerous problems in education today. A lot of which is due to some really bad attempts to explain the material to kids and the fact that people who don't have enough of a solid foundation in the material are attempting to teach it. Much is being done, at least in CA, to correct the latter.

Tokie, aside from kicking out all the ILLLEEEEGGGGGAAAALLLLLLSSSSS, what's your suggestion for improving education, particularly math and science? What do you think could be done to retain students' interest in these subjects? How can we increase the student retention rate?

I look forward to your thoughts on the matter.

I expect I'll get them around the time you address my post in another thread with regards to Chinese Poetry and World History.

 

[Dancing David]

I categorically disagree with your statement. I believe NCLB was a good idea. I believe it has been sabotaged by state and municipal education boards.

Sorry I have not checked this in a while, I was off in Science mainly.

My statement was in reference that NCLB was not implemented to improve the schools, it was implemented as a way to shuffle public funding to private schools. So while on the surface the goal was to improve test scores (a good thing) the reason for it was to suck money out of public schools and benefit the upper middle class. My statement about local and state education was in line with yours. Local and state bodies make crazy decisions that often have lttle to do with the actual education of the student. For example, the Illinois state lottery, implemeted ti increase school funding. Great idea, but for every dollar it has earned the state has decreased it's revenues to education

In my opinion, the basic premise behind NCLB is that there are a few very, very BASIC, essential skills that children need, before they graduate from school. The implication is that students need to be literate at the very least, and need to be able to do some basic math - adding, subtracting, dividing, and the like.

Agree.

The problem is that NCLB has no teeth - no one in Washington was masculine enough to actually enumerate those standards. Instead, the actual standards were left to the states to set for themselves, individually. Most states responded in bad faith. Some, for instance, responded by setting artificially low standards, so they wouldn't have to make any effort towards improving anything. Some states responded by manipulating results and playing fast-and-loose with facts, figures, numbers, and classifications of students in their yearly reports. Those were the choices they made. They then blamed the results on the federal act, as if they didn't have a choice, after all, but to respond the way they did.

Very likely, however it has certainly lit a fire in some schools. The real problem here in Illinois is that verybody talks about improvong education, but nobody wants to spend money on it. We have a local property tax based system as well, which creates huge problems. And then there is local politics, you cant replace the hundred year old school falling down in the 'bad' neighborhood without having to cater to the wealthy neighborhood and give them a new school as well.

Bollocks. The state of education in this country does indeed suck mightily; however, your local school board, and your state's education board, are perfectly happy to let it stay that way. Mostly out of laziness. This has nothing to do with some "conspiracy" to "dumb down" American kids, and everything to do with people just not caring.

Agreed.

 

[Prometheus]

My state is one in which the DOE has bent over backwards trying to make NCLB work; they've produced a rigorous set of tests, curriculum standards that should allow those tests to be passed, and they've followed through and taken over a number of schools from local school boards for non-performance.

Among the results have been: Lot's of lawsuits instigated by parents who think the tests are unfair; lot's of HS guidance counselors advising low-scoring students to drop out of school and try to get a GED instead--especially stupid since the GED exams are considerably more difficult than the NCLB inspired exams required to graduate HS, but getting rid of the low-scorers helps prevent the school's from being taken over by the state; lot's of kids stuck in limbo because of various cracks in the system; lot's and LOT'S of kids suddenly being diagnosed with all sorts of learning disabilities because this allows them to squeak through the loopholes; lot's of teachers complaining that the new requirements prevent them from doing anything other than "teaching to the test"; lot's of HS graduates that are not doing well on college entrance tests, because they don't cover the same material as the new NCLB tests that are now just about the sole focus of the HS curriculum.

Don't get me wrong; I like testing, and lot's of it, but it needs to be done in the spirit of science--in a genuine attempt to find out what really works and what doesn't--not as a policy mandate that causes everybody to work against the best interests of children out of fear for their jobs.

 

[Tokenconservative]

And yet, you, "passed," with a D. A D may be a passing grade, but not by much. It's certainly no grade I would ever boast of. Such as my B+ in high school Calculus in which I did no homework and never cracked the textbook? Those were the days. Now my professors make homework anywhere from 10-75% of the grade and actually working with the material is necessary.

So let's see, you make assertions you don't feel you need to justify because they're, "obvious," like the textbooks from the 1920s and 1930s. You mock someone else for having made a diorama for history class in high school and boast of your incredibly awesome drawing/collage in high school and can't see your own double standard?

There are numerous problems in education today. A lot of which is due to some really bad attempts to explain the material to kids and the fact that people who don't have enough of a solid foundation in the material are attempting to teach it. Much is being done, at least in CA, to correct the latter.

Tokie, aside from kicking out all the ILLLEEEEGGGGGAAAALLLLLLSSSSS, what's your suggestion for improving education, particularly math and science? What do you think could be done to retain students' interest in these subjects? How can we increase the student retention rate?

I look forward to your thoughts on the matter.

I expect I'll get them around the time you address my post in another thread with regards to Chinese Poetry and World History.

It's really sort of irritating to talk to you.

You realize (I guess not) that even my D was unearned and that I'm not boasting about it, it's a terrible grade. In my house today "D" stands for "don't bother coming home" and "A" is "eh, acceptable." I realize you think you are showing how stupid Tokie is for that bad grade, but what you don't realize is that you are essentially making my case for me.

It's hard for me to deal with the sort of blind stupidity you represent. The schools were bad when I was in them in the 70s...they are worse now. The collage or whatever the hell it was I did in math in 9th grade was just as bad as the guy who did a diarama. I subbed in a Lit class last year where the final project was to drawr a purty pitcher of a scene from Romeo & Juliet or do a Hip Hop version of it performed in front of the class. This was a 10th grade class. My kids found such nonsense at their public high school to be childish and not to be something that would particularly prepare them for college. I went to a lousy little city college but I never did a collage or Hip Hop version of Milton or Steinbeck for a term project.

Do you even know what the term "double standard" means? It does not appear so.

You really need to read what is being written, not what you HOPE is being written. I think you'd find it a marvelously refreshing approach.

Fixing the problem:
1. Rid the schools of the union
2. School choice.
3. Yeah...kick out the illegals. Few of them want to be there and cause the majority of distractions, and besides they have no right to be there, even if each of their heads means x-$ to the district.

Problem fixed

 

[Tokenconservative]

I'm not accusing you of anything. I just have not had the type of experience you're describing, and without data, I don't know how prevalent such experience may be.

And, BTW, I don't hate you--don't know what ever gave you that idea. I'm at least as frustrated by some of the problems in education as you seem to be. Some of my opinions are even in substantial agreement with yours. But they are just that--opinions. The single biggest problem with all education is a lack of good data (you may have noticed that I've not included any in my posts here). Anecdotes are everywhere, but the truth is that nobody can even begin to understand and fix the problems now because we don't even really know what the problems are beyond vague assertions that seem to follow political lines rather than scientific ones.

As I mentioned near the beginning of this thread, I take issue with the sort of test comparisons in the OP, not because I think our education system is fantastic, but because the tests themselves, and the methods of administering, scoring, interpreting, and rendering policy based on them are all severely flawed. I've not yet found any source of data on education that I consider trustworthy.
So perhaps our schools really do suck compared to other countries, or perhaps not. I can readily find a wealth of anecdote going both ways, and my own experience has been mixed.

You have the audacity to question my veracity and suggest that I would prevaricate!?

Man up, dude. If you think I am lying, just say so.

I don't have "the numbers" to verify how prevalent my experience might be. It was an anecdote...those don't require "the numbers," unless I am talking about winning Lotto.

We can't look into a crystal ball. All we can do is use what's available to us. Is that perfect? No...I'm perfect, but that's just what the ladies say....there's no such thing as the perfection you seek before rendering an opinion (since when is an opinion the bane of all critical thought?). The FACT is, and you know this, we score very high when it comes to "self esteem" compared to most other countries, industrialized, emerging, and 3rd world, and abysmally when comparing math and science and even English scores.

We can say, harrumph...it's all academic at this point, because ah, haruumph, we just don't have perfect data as yet, and so I recommend, ahem, doing nothing unti the data can be perfected!

I'm glad Salk didn't look at things that way. Or Colombus. Or Ford. Or hell, even Disney.

If you are, as you present, a liberal, there's very little about your ideologies that is not rooted in hate and anger. I am a conservative, ergo, as a liberal you hate me. It's nothing personal, it's just a foundational bulwark of your ideology.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

My state is one in which the DOE has bent over backwards trying to make NCLB work; they've produced a rigorous set of tests, curriculum standards that should allow those tests to be passed, and they've followed through and taken over a number of schools from local school boards for non-performance.

Among the results have been: Lot's of lawsuits instigated by parents who think the tests are unfair; lot's of HS guidance counselors advising low-scoring students to drop out of school and try to get a GED instead--especially stupid since the GED exams are considerably more difficult than the NCLB inspired exams required to graduate HS, but getting rid of the low-scorers helps prevent the school's from being taken over by the state; lot's of kids stuck in limbo because of various cracks in the system; lot's and LOT'S of kids suddenly being diagnosed with all sorts of learning disabilities because this allows them to squeak through the loopholes; lot's of teachers complaining that the new requirements prevent them from doing anything other than "teaching to the test"; lot's of HS graduates that are not doing well on college entrance tests, because they don't cover the same material as the new NCLB tests that are now just about the sole focus of the HS curriculum.

Don't get me wrong; I like testing, and lot's of it, but it needs to be done in the spirit of science--in a genuine attempt to find out what really works and what doesn't--not as a policy mandate that causes everybody to work against the best interests of children out of fear for their jobs.

So what you are saying is same ol same ol?

Sounds a lot like schools BEFORE NCLB to me....

The problems with your approach (aside from the requirement for perfection) are:
1. We can't sit around forever arguing over the best approach and allowing the NEA or even the DOE to waffle and piddle around while protecting their own rice bowls while generation after generation of Americans are "educated" to be morons.
2. The only way we are ever going to see any real change is by getting the unions out of there.

Tokie

 

[Prometheus]

So what you are saying is same ol same ol?

To some degree, yes, NCLB has utterly failed to address quite a few very important problems.

Sounds a lot like schools BEFORE NCLB to me....

Some of the problems are the same as before, but NCLB has certainly created new ones, and there are a few new ones that may or may not be wholly related to NCLB. I'm not sure about all of the recent increase in learning disability diagnoses, for instance. That could be something like the fake autism epidemic that woo woo's have been blaming on vaccines, when it's really just an accounting error.

The problems with your approach (aside from the requirement for perfection) are:
1. We can't sit around forever arguing over the best approach and allowing the NEA or even the DOE to waffle and piddle around while protecting their own rice bowls while generation after generation of Americans are "educated" to be morons.

Where did I require perfection? I just want some actual science.

2. The only way we are ever going to see any real change is by getting the unions out of there.

Tokie

I tend to agree that the teachers' unions suck. I know they haven't done much for me, other than getting me a tiny pay increase once every 5 or 6 years, that usually comes with an equivalent hike in union dues. On the other hand, I'm certain that they're far from the only thing preventing change, and they'd be a lot less powerful if we had some other standard way of making teachers feel like they're not getting a raw deal.

 

[Mister Agenda]

One comparison with today's schools and yesterday's: what's with all the freakin' homework? Has it ever been verified that it is even that useful?

In my spare time I would like to tutor Bantu refugee children from Somalia. Instead I spend all my time walking them through their homework. Time I could have spent on the basics they've missed (typical situation: 11-yr-old girl with a 2nd-grade education who is in the process of learning English is placed in 6th grade...because she's 11, and we can't have any 11-yr-olds in 4th or even 5th grade now can we?), I spend on fractions with decimals and variables or nitty-gritty of SC history. I didn't have THAT much HW when I was coming up in the 70s. What gives?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

It's really sort of irritating to talk to you.