Intelligent Evolution?

[mijopaalmc]

You're suggesting that technological 'evolution' and religious 'evolution' are analagous?!

Bingo. But they are not completely analogous to biological evolution. They contatin teh extra aspect of intelligent intent. It's all the process and not the results.

 

[Belz...]

The intent of an intelligent agent. The Nicene Creed did not "write itself" as you claim your posts did. It was a very specific response to Arianism's denial of Christ's divinity.

How wrong you are. From an information standpoint, the information "got itself" written and copied by using us as its agents, just like DNA uses living being to propagate itself. No intent there.

Oh, I'm sorry. That's right! You don't understand analogies. Good thing my post wasn't meant for you.

 

[mijopaalmc]

How wrong you are. From an information standpoint, the information "got itself" written and copied by using us as its agents, just like DNA uses living being to propagate itself. No intent there.

Oh, I'm sorry. That's right! You don't understand analogies. Good thing my post wasn't meant for you.

Actually I do understand analogies, and yours failed completely.

Can you explain the differences in the intellectual enviroment the caused Arianism to persist in the Visigothic kingdoms in Spain as opposed to in Constainople?

 

[Belz...]

Mijo, that's not even a sentence.

 

[articulett]

Mijo, that's not even a sentence.

Too much eggnog.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Mijo, that's not even a sentence.

Can you explain the differences in the intellectual enviroment that caused Arianism to persist in the Visigothic kingdoms in Spain as opposed to in Constainople?

Could you have noticed that if you weren't intelligent (i.e., didn't know the rules of English grammar)?

 

[Apathia]

It always looks like that... because the ones that don't, die out. The ones that survive, carry information that can stay around and become newly shuffled hands in the evolution game.

Yes, mere appearnces.

Every cell in your body is going about its own business without thought of any whole body goal. Goal, intent, purpose are attributed after the fact.
Beneath the vaneer of appearance, the head isn't really in charge like some kind of despot.

Surely the human creation of the WWW is a more convoluted process than the spider's creation of a web, but it's the underlying process that's real.

I gather the goal of Southwind's Analogy is to highlight the underlying process. Of course the suface appreances are different and in other contexts that needs to be pointed out.

On a personal note, it's not been my experience in life that my "intelligence" has been the decider. My behavior comes of my whole body.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot, intelligence doesn't really exist much like pressure, temperature, viscosity, etc.

 

[Apathia]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot, intelligence doesn't really exist much like pressure, temperature, viscosity, etc.

You know? At some point I'm going to have to apply my own signature to myself.

Of course there's intelligent behavior.
And I suspect any ID proponent will probably hold this front and center as you have (I'm not saying you are an IDer.)
So in the case of ID proponents, I'd have to concede it would be better to approach the process from biological evolution's Blind Watchmaker Analogy first, before they are going to get the most marginal clue that intelligence isn't the substance of evolution.

What did I say before? "Poke out their eyes before loping off their heads."

 

[amb]

Sorry for the side-bar, but I have never seen a CRT that equals a plasma and/or LCD (not all of course) in HD.

Evolution just means change, it does not means only a step forward, as most of us I'm sure, know.

Paul

I understand this is way off topic. Most retailers display plasma or LCD with a special digital box behind them. Size for size with no aid CRT is still superior to them both. The soon to be released laser LCD TV will place both present modes obsolete overnight.

 

[amb]

Yes, mere appearnces.

Every cell in your body is going about its own business without thought of any whole body goal. Goal, intent, purpose are attributed after the fact.
Beneath the vaneer of appearance, the head isn't really in charge like some kind of despot.

Surely the human creation of the WWW is a more convoluted process than the spider's creation of a web, but it's the underlying process that's real.

I gather the goal of Southwind's Analogy is to highlight the underlying process. Of course the suface appreances are different and in other contexts that needs to be pointed out.

On a personal note, it's not been my experience in life that my "intelligence" has been the decider. My behavior comes of my whole body.

I may be off topic a little so bear with me. You say your behavior comes from your whole body. What do you think your body's behavior come from? Or your intelligence? [Which you show an abundant] Does it not all come from that amazing, incredible complex organ ''the brain''? It's your intelligence that's the decider, not your body.

 

[cyborg]

Does it not all come from that amazing, incredible complex organ ''the brain''? It's your intelligence that's the decider, not your body.

Does not the brain rely on a body in order to have something to decide? Furthermore does not the body rely on a world to exist in?

"Intelligence," is not a decision, it's a decision making system. And if the decision making system is designed to reflect the world it perceives then surely it is the world that dictates what is intelligent and not the brain?

 

[Apathia]

I may be off topic a little so bear with me. You say your behavior comes from your whole body. What do you think your body's behavior come from? Or your intelligence? [Which you show an abundant] Does it not all come from that amazing, incredible complex organ ''the brain''? It's your intelligence that's the decider, not your body.

While the central nervous system does have a large number of control functions, it is not alone, and it is not the puppet master.
You have a complex endocrine system that influences the brain. Your intestines have their own assemblage of nerve cells to control digestion.
Yes, the bain is a very important organ in human intelligent behavior thanks to the frontal lobes of the human brain. But in the end, mind is not the Decider (In the W sort of way). Our decisions arise systemically.

And as Cyborg points out, this process isn't bounded by your skin but is integral to your envioronment as well. It's an ecological dynamic, our decisions alter the environment, and the environment alters our decisions.

The piece of useful fiction we get hung up on is "mind."

 

[Southwind17]

I understand this is way off topic. Most retailers display plasma or LCD with a special digital box behind them. Size for size with no aid CRT is still superior to them both. The soon to be released laser LCD TV will place both present modes obsolete overnight.

Overnight? Are you sure? The soon to be released laser LCD TV will retail at or less than the same price as current plasma TVs do, size for size? Are you sure about this? Where do I order one? Oh, hang on, how is the laser LCD TV better?

 

[Southwind17]

Bingo. But they are not completely analogous to biological evolution.

But they're completely analogous to each other? Would you care to define 'completely' please, in the context of an analogy.

They contatin teh extra aspect of intelligent intent.

This would be the 'intelligent intent' that I have previously shown to be purely for convenience, and not necessary for technological evolution to occur, would it?

It's all the process and not the results.

You're claiming that technological 'evolution' and religious 'evolution' are exactly the same processes, and derive exactly the same results, yes?

This could be an interesting little aside!

 

[Belz...]

Can you explain the differences in the intellectual enviroment that caused Arianism to persist in the Visigothic kingdoms in Spain as opposed to in Constainople?

Okay, now, how does that relate to the discussion ?

Could you have noticed that if you weren't intelligent (i.e., didn't know the rules of English grammar)?

Yes, I could have. In fact, MS Word does it all the time.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Okay, now, how does that relate to the discussion?

Do you even pay attention to the discussion?

We were dsicussing the develpoment of Christianity as an example of a system that invovled an intelligent agent. The point is that the Nicene Creed did not just "write itself"; it was a very specific response to Arianism's denial of Jesus' divinity. It is akin to the hemoglobin gene mutating to make humans resistant to malaria, which did not happen. In biological evolution, a mutation may persist because of the reproductive advantage that it confers on the individuall; however, the reverse (an organism making a change in response to an environmental stressor) is at best a very controversial process.

Yes, I could have. In fact, MS Word does it all the time.

Doesn't MS Word "know" the rules of English grammar in so far it can often tell when a string of words is ungrammatical?

 

[six7s]

Sigh

We were dsicussing the develpoment of Christianity as an example of a system that invovled an intelligent agent

Almost, but not quite. You built a new strawman and proceeded waffle on about it

Do not be surprised that others have difficulty in paying attention to what is largely irrelevant

The point is that the Nicene Creed did not just "write itself";

No, you ridiculously stubborn ass, that is NOT the point. Belz debunked that in post 2002

Doesn't MS Word "know" the rules of English grammar in so far it can often tell when a string of words is ungrammatical?

Oh dear, not only do you have no idea what intelligence is, you have no understanding about hard-coding either. The sooner you stop pretending, the sooner you'll comprehend how little you know

 

[mijopaalmc]

Almost, but not quite. You built a new strawman and proceeded waffle on about it

Do not be surprised that others have difficulty in paying attention to what is largely irrelevant

It's not a straw man to say that processes that invlvolve the intent of an inteliggent agent differ from systems that do not because the latter does not include the intent of an intelligent agent. Again, "orthodox" Christiannity changed in a very specific way at the Council of Nicaea to exclude what the "orthodox" Christians considered the heresy of Arianism. This type of spcific response to the environment has not been proven to exist in biological evolution.

No, you ridiculously stubborn ass, that is NOT the point. Belz debunked that in post 2002

If by "debunked" you mean "contradicted with out offering evidence", then, yes, did "debunk" me. However, simple contrdiction is not generally considered "debunking". The process of biological evolution and the process of technological delvelopment are not the same because the involvement of an intelligent agent changes how the system can respond to the environment.

 

[six7s]

It's not a straw man to say that processes that invlvolve the intent of an inteliggent agent differ from systems that do not because the latter does not include the intent of an intelligent agent.

I have a suspicion that you can type faster than you can think

This type of spcific response to the environment has not been proven to exist in biological evolution.

Even if you're right... so what? You're obsession with constructing strawmen might impress and/or fool you, but not me

If by "debunked" you mean "contradicted with out offering evidence", then, yes, did "debunk" me.

Nope. I mean debunked by countering your nonsense with common sense:

The intent of an intelligent agent. The Nicene Creed did not "write itself" as you claim your posts did. It was a very specific response to Arianism's denial of Christ's divinity.

How wrong you are. From an information standpoint, the information "got itself" written and copied by using us as its agents, just like DNA uses living being to propagate itself. No intent there.

Oh, I'm sorry. That's right! You don't understand analogies. Good thing my post wasn't meant for you.

The process of biological evolution and the process of technological delvelopment are not the same because the involvement of an intelligent agent changes how the system can respond to the environment.

It is so mind-numbingly obvious that you really don't understand analogies

What doesn't make sense is how someone who can (almost) type in full sentences can so stubbornly ignore the ad-nauseum repetitions of this salient fact and, instead, persist in posting such utter drivel