Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[Drewbot]

As far as I know, noone has recreated Snuffaluffagus, or Big Bird either, but that doesn't make them real creatures.

 

[William Parcher]

Money as a motivator...

Any attempt at recreating the PGF needs to have a motive and goal. Nobody is offering a cash reward for duplicating Patty. There may be many experts in Hollywood (or anywhere) who could and would replicate the PGF.... for a price. These people have to get paid for their time. It seems that the ROI for any attempt would come from its marketability for popular media (TV). How much you can sell the recreation to a network is how much you can expect in return for your investment. I can't imagine that the producers are thinking that a successful recreation of the PGF would be a top seller TV episode. The audience doesn't really care very much about the PGF, in spite of it being an American icon. Just how much are people willing to pay to see proof that Patty could very well have been a guy in a suit? It can't prove that the PGF was a hoax - only that it definitely could have been one. But doesn't the public at large already believe that anyway?

Bigfooters like to talk about the general lack of good recreations as evidence that a recreation cannot be done. Not true. It's because there is no meaningful carrot hanging on a stick. Patterson had the ultimate carrot out in front of his big hoax. You have to pay to see Patty and folks she is a real Bigfoot. Form a line and be patient. Everyone will get a chance to see Patty. The cash rolls in. Roger was even boastful about the prospect of getting rich.

 

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

NO other video, or even photo, of a supposed Bigfoot, or a man in a Gorilla suit has been able to cause people.....ANYONE...to wonder whether or not it's a real creature, or a man-in-a-suit......for years on end.

Is this not true???

No, it isn't true. The Freeman video, Redwoods Video, and Memorial Day video all fit the criteria that you described. I'd say that the Minnesota Iceman (of which several photos exist) also qualifies.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ivan Marx, Sonoma, the PGF, were all films that expert footers believed in which were actually men in suits. Snow walker, too.

 

[SweatyYeti]

Diogenes wrote:

Not true at all Sweety, by a long shot ..

I noticed you didn't list any examples of comparable videos, or pictures, Greg.

Probably because there are none.

The people who wonder whether it's a real creature or not, are usually younger than 6 or 7 years old

Not true.

There have been many intelligent people...some skeptics...who agree that it's AMBIGUOUS as to exactly what Patty is.

 

[historian]

Money as a motivator...

Any attempt at recreating the PGF needs to have a motive and goal. Nobody is offering a cash reward for duplicating Patty. There may be many experts in Hollywood (or anywhere) who could and would replicate the PGF.... for a price. These people have to get paid for their time. It seems that the ROI for any attempt would come from its marketability for popular media (TV). How much you can sell the recreation to a network is how much you can expect in return for your investment. I can't imagine that the producers are thinking that a successful recreation of the PGF would be a top seller TV episode. The audience doesn't really care very much about the PGF, in spite of it being an American icon. Just how much are people willing to pay to see proof that Patty could very well have been a guy in a suit? It can't prove that the PGF was a hoax - only that it definitely could have been one. But doesn't the public at large already believe that anyway?

Bigfooters like to talk about the general lack of good recreations as evidence that a recreation cannot be done. Not true. It's because there is no meaningful carrot hanging on a stick. Patterson had the ultimate carrot out in front of his big hoax. You have to pay to see Patty and folks she is a real Bigfoot. Form a line and be patient. Everyone will get a chance to see Patty. The cash rolls in. Roger was even boastful about the prospect of getting rich.

Still whipping a dead horse, huh William?.

With some good mind games, the MC might be able to cause a naive audience to forget the 40 year difference between when the real Bigfoot video was shot and when Hollywood gave it their best shot at recreating it. That would not prove that it definately was possible in 1967, contrary to your misrepresentaion.

Not being economically feasible? Are you kidding? That is no excuse. The security people that have been charged at protecting you from yourself, would pay ANYTHING, to have Patty duplicated. So that is not a valid excuse. Taxpayer dollars would make it happen. Logging industry dollars would also make it happen. The old boys network that cannot deal with bbbbigfoot, would make it happen. Economics has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. It just could not be done 40 years ago.

I do not recall ever reading that Roger died rich. Nor is his widow, rich. Nor did Bob Gimlin make a dime off of it. That film cost Bob Gimlin in attorney fees dealing with morons, so he lost in that deal.

"Get up horse! or so help me! Are'nt you listening to me? Don't you make me whip you one more time! Can you spell "glu"? I know I can. Let me see now. "G" "L" "U". Yah! Glu! If you don't get up right now, I am going to turn you into GLU! See if I care!"

 

[SweatyYeti]

No, it isn't true. The Freeman video, Redwoods Video, and Memorial Day video all fit the criteria that you described. I'd say that the Minnesota Iceman (of which several photos exist) also qualifies.

I left out a key word in that statement I made........'comparable'.

In that same post of mine, I described some of the aspects of a video, or photo, which would be necessary for that video or photo to be "comparable" to the PG film.


Here's a more complete version of the same statment....

NO other comparable video, or even photo, of a supposed Bigfoot, or a man in a Gorilla suit has been able to cause people.....ANYONE...to wonder whether or not it's a real creature, or a man-in-a-suit......for years on end.

The Memorial Day Video is also ambiguous as to what the subject actually is...but the discussion is about the realism of Patty. The MD Video is obviously irrelevant to the subject at hand.

 

[Correa Neto]

The problem is that for Sweaty, MDF shows the real deal... I don't know his opinion regarding the other ones (no time to use the search function). I guess he thinks the Minnesota Iceman is a real unknown primate (OK, he'll say something about a chance of being). My guess is based exclusively in the fact that LAL thinks it is.

I think there's a cance King Kong x Godzilla shows a real Kong in some scenes... Or maybe they hired a bigfoot!

Moving fingers, short hairs, similar feet, overall shape similar to Patty...

 

[SweatyYeti]

Historian wrote:

That film cost Bob Gimlin in attorney fees dealing with morons, so he lost in that deal.

It just occured to me, after reading your post, historian.....Bob Gimlin would have a shot at making himself some good money if he decided to write a book about how he and Roger pulled-off the hoax of the century.

I wonder what's keeping him from writing that book???

 

[historian]

Employment Want Ads - Temporary but may lead to full time

Wanted 7'-3" tall bloke, must be over 400 lbs, must have man boobs, must have large feet, must have hair all over body that wife did not wax off yet, must be photogenic despite body hair, must have sagital crest, did I mention very large feet yet, must be comfortable in front of cameras, must be a natural born liar, must have no arrest record, must have graduated high school, must be capable of lieing through your teeth for the rest of your natural life, must claim in front of TV personnel that he was "bloke in suit" at Bluff Creek California on October 20, 1967, pays well, money is no object, contact William Parcher, LTC8K6, Diogenes, or Dfoot on James Randi forum. Last person at this position failed I.Q. test. Need new blood. Benefits, retirement package, paid vacation, paid sick leave, profit sharing, horse.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Diogenes wrote:


I noticed you didn't list any examples of comparable videos, or pictures, Greg.

Probably because there are none.

Actually I did list two ..

Not true.

There have been many intelligent people...some skeptics...who agree that it's AMBIGUOUS as to exactly what Patty is.

Where did I say the people fooled by the PGF are not intelligent ?
Dr. Meldrum is certainly intelligent..

7 Year olds ( and younger ) can be very intelligent. They just tend to be a bit more credulous than more mature people . That is why they would make up the preponderance of people who would think Patty is real .

Intelligent people are fooled all the time, myself included ..
Patty just happens to be one of the things that I am not fooled by .. ( anymore.... )

 

[Correa Neto]

I'll respond to more of your post later, when I have the time...but for now, I'll respond to just this question...

Ah, yeah...

Feel free to think about it for as long as you wish. But make sure you really think about it before answering

Sure....one very real reason is simply that NObody has ever re-created the realism of Patty on video...in motion...with a comparable view of the subject....i.e...seen from head-to-toe, from the side, back, and partially from the front...and with a good degree of resolution.

First of all you should define what you consider to be this "realism" you talk so much about it. I think there are many sequences sowing gorilla costumes were as good as and much better than Patty.

And you do want a recreation of PGF in VIDEO?

Nitpicking asides, who would pay for that? Why?
And again what parameters must be met to labell it as "realistic" or not?

NO other video, or even photo, of a supposed Bigfoot, or a man in a Gorilla suit has been able to cause people.....ANYONE...to wonder whether or not it's a real creature, or a man-in-a-suit......for years on end.

Is this not true???

No.
I suggest you to look at "Gorillas in the Mist", for example...

You might also wonder why many people who look at PGF wonder how some people think it can't be a man in a gorilla bigfoot suit.

Think about these issues before answering.

This is one reason to think there is a chance....some 'degree of probability'...that Patty is a real Bigfoot.

I'd say a very small degree of possiblity, tending towards zero. So small that for all practical reasons it can be taken as being zero.

So, I'll repeat the question, since I feel the answer was not satisfactory.

Can you offer a single good reason why consider PGF is not a fraud?

Think about it before answering. Think about all the avove questions before answering. But try to think outside the standard footer box. The answers taken from that box so far have been quite unsubstantiated.

 

[historian]

Can you offer a single good reason why consider PGF is not a fraud?

Reasons
1. The alleged suit was never produced
2. The alleged man in the suit was never produced
3. The latest scientific studies, show that the preponderance of evidence leans heavily toward the PGF being absolutely an authentic film of an authentic Bigfoot
4. String theory and the likely existenCE of Bigfoot in the higher dimensions explains the dozens of gotcha questions that naysayers believe they have not received answers
5. Dozens of actual Bigfoot sightings together with written accounts, of Bigfoot disappearing before the eyes of onlookers.

So pro-footers, HAVE EVERYTHING THEY NEED!

 

[Correa Neto]

1. The alleged suit was never produced

Prove it.

2. The alleged man in the suit was never produced

Irrelevant, but he might well have been, like you or not.

3. The latest scientific studies, show that the preponderance of evidence leans heavily toward the PGF being absolutely an authentic film of an authentic Bigfoot

Show us these scientific studies. Please allow to remind you that LMS is not a scientific study, regardless its name.

4. String theory and the likely existenCE of Bigfoot in the higher dimensions explains the dozens of gotcha questions that naysayers believe they have not received answers

Cut the crap, show us the math or shut up.

5. Dozens of actual Bigfoot sightings together with written accounts, of Bigfoot disappearing before the eyes of onlookers.

How can you determine they were actual bigfoot sightings?

So pro-footers, HAVE EVERYTHING THEY NEED!

To back a belief, maybe, since some people need much less to belive in woo.

To make good science? No.

 

[Dfoot]

kitakaze - Sorry I missed your question before about what it would take to build "Patty." When I finally get around to making a video on the subject I'll try to include everything I can. But mostly it would take foam, stretch fabric and latex. The mask, feet and other parts would be molded in clay to form in latex.

Basically it follows the pattern of other bear, gorilla and monster suits made by Janos Prohaska in the 60's and 70's. Just use glue to create the sparse hair look. (*But watch out you may start looking as if you are wearing shorts as the hair rubs off around the edges of the padding and where your hand and arm sweep against the glued on hair.)

Geno - Believe me, all those monster suits stink after being worn a couple of times. Patty was made of parts from other suits - not created brand new. The horror that is the funky sweat smell is something all stuntmen who wear suits must face.

Here I simply glued some foam together using spray glue and stretched a tee-shirt and spandex pants over it to make "muscle masses moving."

The TOP PHOTO of Patty is the one I used in a psychological experiment over at the BFF. I horizontally flopped the pic and composited Patty onto the street in front of my house. I then said this was a suit I was working on. I was then told by several people that it didn't come close to the incredible detail of Patty. That is an example of why no suit (not even Patty herself) will suffice.

Here I sprayed some glue and paint onto the fabric and chopped up a black wig. I just wanted to see how hard it would be to create this type of look.

Same TOR mask on my stunt dummy. On the left I used sunglasses to hide the eye hole. On the right I left the LEFTeye hole open and stuck a fake plastic eye in the RIGHT eye socket.

I also widened Tor's nose since it was not quite as wide as Patty's and made the forehead and jaw sharper. I did this by molding clay with my fingers and pressing the clay into Plaster of Paris. I then poured latex into the Plaster Mold I'd created. You can do this with bathroom chaulk or glue too if you don't have latex. I made feet and footprints (with and without dermal ridges) the same way.

Here you can see the problem Heironimus described on the actual mask used to build Patty's face. The man wearing the mask here is a giant (literally) and he can look out of both eyes. Most people couldn't. Still... some glue and latex could fix this up and one fake eye (as described by Bob H. and demonstrated above) could solve the "eye away from the hole" problem.

Here's me wearing the TOR Bigfoot mask I threw together for Halloween. You can see the problem that occurs. I can put one eye against the opening, but the other shows a gap. All you need is one fake eye and some blur.

The problem is not that no one in the creature fx world can recreate Patty. The problem is that it would hurt their reps to do so as the pros look at Patty as simply a tossed together joke suit. If people want to believe it then that's fine with them. They could care less.

Me? I'm still talking to a few people. Ran into some recently and hope to learn more. Nothing a guy like me could build would change any minds that are set in stone, but I would love to find some part of Patty still around.

I deliberately recreated a few of Patty's pad lines. The hands I just threw on. I didn't take the time to put the arms together.

I could make the elbow joint anywhere I want. I could build the shoulder lower or make the legs shorter. It just depends on what you want. Study the suits and how they are made and you can also make "muscle masses moving" on your next Bigfoot hoax... I mean sighting.

 

[historian]

Prove it.

Irrelevant, but he might well have been, like you or not.

Show us these scientific studies. Please allow to remind you that LMS is not a scientific study, regardless its name.

Cut the crap, show us the math or shut up.

How can you determine they were actual bigfoot sightings?

To back a belief, maybe, since some people need much less to belive in woo.

To make good science? No.

Prove that suit was produced
Prove that a man in a suit was produced
Prove that LMS was not a scientific study
Prove that you are not full of crap
Prove that they were not actual bigfoot sightings
Prove that the science has not been done

Correo, I can play your game all day long. You have not a single leg to stand on. Find a new employer. Kitakaze has. Get a real job.

 

[Drewbot]

We just pulled of the biggest hoax of the last 20 years! Now what do we do with this costume?

My guess- get rid of the evidence, if you always want to be known as the Cowboy who caught bigfoot, why risk letting it be discovered? He didn't know he was going to die. In 20 years, he was hoping to be introduced at Rodeo's around the country as the 'Man who Filmed Bigfoot' There was no way he was going to jeopardize that. Also, knowing that his relationship with BH was questionable, why leave any proof that it happened? A whistleblower with a story, is a whistleblower, a whistleblower with a costume? that is trouble.

Has anyone seen the original film replayed? Are all the footage that we have seen blown up? How big is the actual figure of patty, for example, if it was played unaltered on my computer screen? is it 1/2" tall?, 1" tall?, 3" tall? anyone know?

 

[LTC8K6]

Prove that suit was produced - See PGF
Prove that a man in a suit was produced - See PGF
Prove that LMS was not a scientific study - See LMS - See NASI report - See Meldrum papers
Prove that you are not full of crap - See toilet
Prove that they were not actual bigfoot sightings - real bigfoot unknown - possibly even invisible - see widely varying descriptions of bigfoot
Prove that the science has not been done - Science never produced

 

[Dfoot]

Drewbot - Before you are brutally attacked I'll chime in and divert the onslaught of large type...

Patterson DID know he was dying. He was fighting it and it went up and down. Sometimes he lost weight and sometimes he'd gain it back. His plan was to sell the same film rights over and over and hide away as much money as he could before he went (or until he became a millionaire - whichever came first).

The real story goes like this: Patterson and Jerry Merritt get out of the military. Patterson goes into rodeo. Merritt goes into rock and roll.

While giving little kids rides on mini-ponies for cash down at the Corriganville rodeo (home of westerns and jungle flicks as well as gorillaman Crash Corrigan) Patterson learns of Bigfoot. Later he attempts his first hoaxes with the aid of a Hollywood gorilla suit and fake prints.

Patterson and Merritt try to make their own movies. They begin with spec commercials. Finally Merritt builds an exact replica of Corriganville and mimics the hourly western shows. They hope to get film companies interested in shooting there and the live shows are a success.

Patterson and Merritt's manager create a Bigfoot newsletter and promote Patterson's book using their Hollywood contacts. Patterson even copyrights the name "Bigfoot" for future use.

Patterson and Merritt begin their own flick about cowboys, an Indian tracker and an old miner tracking Bigfoot. Making an entire film is more expensive and difficult than first imagined and instead Patterson fakes his Bluff Creek footage with the aid of some Corriganville connected Hollywood creature fx guys.

Patterson and DeAtley ruthlessly cut out all other partners and make big bucks by four-walling the flick on their own until the Hansen Iceman hoax is admitted to in '69. DeAtley bows out and Patterson hooks up with Ron Olson of ANE (while still selling the same rights to others and refusing to pay back any loans or debts).

Patterson dies and his rights go to his family. Ron Olson continues on and eventually makes the movie Patterson originally wanted to make. The film is about some cowboys, an Indian tracker guide and an old miner who track Bigfoot on horseback.

Dahinden hooks up with Gimlin and sues the world - including DeAtley and Pat Patterson. Money is paid to Gimlin and Dahinden ends up with rights of his own.

There are no long lines of men claiming to be "the man in the suit". That is a myth. But Heironimus got upset when he saw the Fox Hoax special that claimed Jerry Romney wore the suit. Romney said he didn't, he only wore a different monster suit in another flick.

Dahinden has now traveled the world suing anyone who lays hands on the PG film. Hearing about Bob H. he travels to Yakima to confront and sue him. He stops by to see his old enemy Pat Patterson. Whatever is said is not known. All we know is that Dahinden left without seeing Heironimus and simply said that he'd give the "clean version" of Patterson to the fans and "let sleeping dogs lie."

After decades of trying to find Bigfoot Dahinden never saw any sign of one other than prints and films people showed him.

Today, people link any interest in the search for Bigfoot evidence with the PG hoax flick and find it difficult to separate the two. As one Hollywood agent said about an actor dying, "Good career move." It would appear that as long as Patterson remains dead a way will be found to make "Patty" more than it is through bogus science and wishful thinking.

Meanwhile... the real Sasquatch mocks us all.

 

[JohnWS]

Dfoot, can you comment on the bad smell that Bob H said the head of the costume had?

I addition to Dfoot's comment I can also say that some years ago Woodbridge Productions (I won't link it - just Google it - it's the first hit I get) used to sell in, addition to a range of prosthetic grade foam latex kits, a scented deodoriser which from memory was for use where a performer did not like the smell of the latex based appliances he/she was to wear. Not definitive by any means of course.