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Is there evidence your god beliefs are true while other god beliefs are false?

most of it anyway . . .

I always thought the parts about lying, stealing, adultry, amd murder to be pretty straightfoward . . .

And the idea of treating others as you wish to be treated I think is pretty self explainatory as well. . .one that even some atheists might wish to adopt . . .
Well, even those parts have been hotly debated at times. For example, the usual translation of a particular commandment is "Thou shalt not kill". A lot of people claim that this actually means "thou shalt not murder" and that killing for good cause is acceptable under certain circumstances. But that's not what is says. On a straightforward, simple reading of the Bible, it reads "thou shalt not kill".

Straightforward? Only because you already know what it's trying to say. But enough of this derail.
 
The title of this thread is (bolding mine) : "IS THERE EVIDENCE YOUR GOD BELIEFS ARE TRUE WHILE OTHER GOD BELIEFS ARE FALSE?"

I don't see a WHY anywhere in that question.
A few people are describing the other question but it wasn't my question. I hate to see this thread deteriorate into a semantics discussion.

Remember, the title has limited words allowed. It's sometimes really hard to make things clear in a title.

And the OP was viewed through various belief filters again making communication imperfect. You believe in God and Jesus. You finally said that much. Plumjam finally stated, "there are some 'false' religions". It has taken 10 pages to get that far. Tedious, very tedious.

Do you recognize the fact skeptic theists exclude their god beliefs from the usual skeptical examinations? You really gave yourself away there with the Fatima and Bernadette miracles. A skeptic follows the evidence. They wouldn't take such a flimsy case as those and draw conclusions of miracles. So maybe you are not the skeptic you think you are.

There are, however, skeptic theists who treat their personal god beliefs quite differently than they treat their other beliefs. I was hoping to discuss what thought processes or evidence went into that dichotomy. But it seems for at least the theists commenting in the thread, they aren't even willing to acknowledge the fact they have 'special' god beliefs and regular god beliefs. People have gone to incredible lengths to avoid even saying that much, let alone actually discussing what it is they find different between the two god beliefs.
 
A You really gave yourself away there with the Fatima and Bernadette miracles. A skeptic follows the evidence. They wouldn't take such a flimsy case as those and draw conclusions of miracles. So maybe you are not the skeptic you think you are.

Actually - that was Plumjam who posted those I think. Not me.

There are, however, skeptic theists who treat their personal god beliefs quite differently than they treat their other beliefs. I was hoping to discuss what thought processes or evidence went into that dichotomy. But it seems for at least the theists commenting in the thread, they aren't even willing to acknowledge the fact they have 'special' god beliefs and regular god beliefs. People have gone to incredible lengths to avoid even saying that much, let alone actually discussing what it is they find different between the two god beliefs.

Please describe to me what the process for a sceptic applying their own beliefs to the scrutiny you are talking about. I am really not understanding what you are wondering.
 
A Christian Sceptic; said:
Now, now, ImaginaryDisc. Let's not be so judgemental.

Firstly, it's ImaginalDisc, the difference is etymological as well as entymological. Secondly, it is not a personal attack to call you arrogant, it is an accurate assessment. You hold me to a different standard than you hold yourself. Your position is perfect and unassailable. Why is it that while I am a skeptic willing to change my mind about religion if presented evidence, you are too good for evidence to sway you? Why are you so much better than me?
 
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Firstly, it's ImaginalDisc, the difference is etymological as well as entymological. Secondly, it is not a personal attack to call you arrogant, it is an accurate assessment. You hold me to a different standard than you hold yourself. Your position is perfect and unassailable. Why is it that while I am a skeptic willing to change my mind about religion if presented evidence, you are too good for evidence to sway you? Why are you so much better than me?

I'm not too good for evidence. But I can't imagine any evidence swaying me into believing there is nothing else. Do you have some evidence? I'm being serious. Because I can't imagine any.
 
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You're spinning your wheels.

While I have no doubt that there are people in the world who think like the above two examples, the fact is that none of them have posted in this thread.

As far as I can recall, all of the theists who have responded in this thread have said -- often repeatedly -- that they do not follow that mindset, especially the "[a]ll other religions are wrong, ....
I agree with you as far as you take this. But take it one step further.

Regardless of one's conviction of certainty, and regardless of one's degree of believing I'm OK/You're OK, the fact still remains that location of birth and circumstances of culture are highly predictive of which god belief a theist might come to adopt. And in spite of plumjam's fact stretching, very few people would conclude all god beliefs are simply different versions of the same god beliefs.

I tried to use the obvious mythical gods to make the point easier to see. Maybe you don't want to claim a superior position as say a Christian over a Buddhist. But it's very likely you don't believe there ever was a real Zeus.

Taking those two god beliefs then, the Christian god vs Zeus, were you to have been born in ancient Greece, you would have likely really believed in Zeus. Were you born in the Bible Belt in 1980, you have a high probability of believing in Jesus and not believing in Zeus.

Is that fact evidence that god beliefs are not really coming from some inner feeling exerted by a real god?
 
A Christian Sceptic; said:
I'm not too good. But I can't imagine any evidence swaying me into believing there is nothing else. Do you have some evidence? I'm being serious. Because I can't imagine any.

I would venture to say that I reject all religions for precisely the same reason you reject all religions but your own; insufficient evidence.
 
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Please describe to me what the process for a sceptic applying their own beliefs to the scrutiny you are talking about. I am really not understanding what you are wondering.
The same process you would follow if someone came up to you and claimed to be Amelia Earhart. You would first doubt, then question, then examine whatever evidence is presented.

It seems to us atheist skeptics that theist skeptics are willing to apply this procedure to everything other than their own religion's claims to gods or miracles.

Here's an example, from my own experience. While I was attending my Pentacostal Christian church, there was what I suppose you'd call a revival meeting. A bloke was brought in from outside, and he proceeded to "heal" people. One of the people he "healed" was an elderly woman in a wheelchair. After his prayer and his laying on of hands, she stood up out of her wheelchair and walked unsupported.

"A miracle," I cried. "Hallelujah". I did not question the miracle that Jesus had laid his hands on this woman and healed her of her lameness. This was talked about in the church for some time afterwards.

It was only years later that I realised that I knew nothing whatsoever about that woman! I had never met her before. I didn't know why she was in a wheelchair, I didn't know how long she'd been in a wheelchair, I didn't know whether she got back into her wheelchair after the meeting!

A few possible explanations came unbidden into my mind.

She could have been genuinely healed of whatever infirmity or disability she was suffering from.

She could have been swept up in the moment and overcome her disability due to adrenaline. In this case, she would not have been "healed" at all, and would have got straight back into the chair after the meeting.

She could have been someone who didn't normally use a wheelchair at all, but was simply offered one as a courtesy of the organisers of the meeting. In which case she wouldn't have been "healed" at all, because there was nothing to heal!

I have since heard that some revivalists will bring wheelchairs to the meetings and offer them to the frail and the elderly just so that they can get them out of the chair and claim that it was a miracle!

I think this is a far more likely explanation of something that I had previously been absolutely convinced was a genuine demonstration of the power of the Holy Ghost. I don't know whether the revivalists in question engaged in active deception. I have no way of knowing. It was a long time ago. But it's one of the options.

It seems to me that theist skeptics do not see the options where their own religious convictions are concerned. I and others wonder why this is so, especially since theist skeptics are as ready as we are to doubt the claims of dowsers, psychics, chiropractors and remote viewers. To me, claiming a miracle is of the same order as claiming psychic power. To theist skeptics, it isn't. And I wonder why that is.
 
Study these and get back to me if you have any queries:

http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v1-13.php
http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v2-10.php
http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v3-10.php

Well, you did ask. ;)

And just to preempt anyone, no, I'm not going to put it into a less than 200 words precis nicely presented for you. If you're genuinely interested in spirituality you'll be willing to do the work yourself.

Peace and Love.
Well from the first link:
GOD is infinite. He is beyond the opposites of good and bad, right and wrong, virtue and vice, birth and death, pleasures and suffering. Such dual aspects do not belong to God. If we take God as one separate entity, He becomes one term in relational existence. Just as good is the counterpart of bad, God becomes the counterpart of not-God, and the Infinite comes to be looked upon as the opposite of the finite......
Taking some liberties with an earlier post, if something is so vague as to be indistinguishable from background noise, it is not useful to say it exists.

That stuff is garbage, sorry, my opinion.
 
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It seems to me that theist skeptics do not see the options where their own religious convictions are concerned. I and others wonder why this is so, especially since theist skeptics are as ready as we are to doubt the claims of dowsers, psychics, chiropractors and remote viewers. To me, claiming a miracle is of the same order as claiming psychic power. To theist skeptics, it isn't. And I wonder why that is.

OK - well then, yes, I do apply scepticism to my beliefs. I wasn't born a Christian. No one is born any religion any more than they are born a Republican or Democrat. At some point you make a decision. It could be as simple as - "Eh, I'll just stick with this religion because whatever". For me it was more tedious - the process I went through was 1) Not believe anything really seriously because I wan't raised in a strict Religious environment, 2) come to a belief in God (when I was 16 in Biology class studying cells), 3) come to believe in Jesus the following summer, 4) since then question every belief someone tells me I need to believe as a Christian and search, study, and come up with my own answers if possible (there's an awful lot I do not have answers to), and 5) when needed I do the same with new ideas or religions I come across.
 
The elements aren't arbitrary, just because they are not uniquely (or even well) defined. ....
I don't think it's sound to conclude that god beliefs therefore have no existence in reality independent of human thought. As I've said before, rational inquiry has limits. You can't do science with the excluded part and many people here seem to respond to this conclusion with something like: "true, but those things don't matter/are boring/are not worth thinking about."....
What we do know is certainly amazing. In my estimation science has revealed an impressive amount about the physical systems on this planet, and has an adequate account for the general outlines of the evolution of the observable universe. I don't think we know much about social dynamics or consciousness yet. Recognizing those limits is as important as acknowledging that we do know certain things and can dismiss some claims.....[snip]
You managed to focus on the semantics of arbitrary and ignore the significance of the fact religion is adopted based on exposure. If it is not evidence of god beliefs being human constructs, then suggest an alternative explanation for the evidence.

As far a believing science cannot explore consciousness or whatever other social issues you believe science cannot investigate, you need a broader exposure to some other scientific fields. It's akin to the guy in the patent office who said there was nothing left to invent. Very short sighted.

Try this, Google search for consciousness research. There is some fascinating work going on in this field.
 
You say the benefits I identified can all be arrived at without believing in any God. I actual want to arrive at some of those benefits, so proof that they can arise elsewhere is not particularly relevant. As far as I know, you didn't ask me to explain why belief in God is necessary, and I haven't argued that it is. It's reasonable to be an atheist. ....
I hate to boil this well thought out and elegant post down to a single concept, but I'm not as eloquent as you. This all seems like nothing more than God as a gap filler. I don't have any emotional need to fill the gaps. But at least you can articulate a rationale for your beliefs other than "an inner feeling".

So how do you evaluate religious claims, reasonably? Here's my reciepe:

(1) have a reason to believe a particular claim is useful i.e. serves some purpose that can't be achieved by a better verified method. You get to judge the purpose too, so you can throw our e.g. security blanket, avoiding cognitive dissonance, social control (where better methods are available).

(2) Toss everything that directly conflicts with rigorously verified knowledge.

(3) Ensure that its practices don't conflict with better verified "moral philosophy." You can't replace religion with moral philosophy for the same reason you can't replace it with science, it's silent on salient points.

If you want to be thorough add:

(4) devote an academic career to analysis each such benefit and looking for a scientific explanation.

I claim that's the proper way to treat religious beliefs. They're the money market account in humanity's knowledge portfolio. It's not unreasonable to wait for science to meet the burden of proof on each point because that is what gives science its merit. Religious beliefs not in conflict with our current best knowledge only need to provide some net benefit to be reasonable.



If you can only treat the phrase "Pe'le controls the volcanos of Hawaii" as naked proposition designed to model the behavior of volcanos its clearly false and useless. If you can understand it in context and practice as part of a way to model/make decisions about how to live on an active volcano, it needs to pass a different test. It may still fail.


If you want to argue that this means Pe'le doesn't "really" control the volcano I'm going to ask you if the nucleus of an atom is "really" surronded by whizzing electrons, as I once believed.

Is there a difference between the claim about the atoms and the claim about Pe'le? Yes. Is it the difference between a claim about something real and a meaningless claim? No.
Hooray, a real answer. Bing bing bing....

Seriously, I am glad to finally have someone actually addressing the OP.

I can relate to your belief system here. In my case #2 ruled out all my god beliefs.

Edited to add, after I thought about this some more, I realized your belief system leaves out one piece. Suppose 2 god beliefs contradict each other, but meet all other criteria you set out. Which then is true and which isn't?
 
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A Christian Sceptic; said:
1) Not believe anything really seriously because I wan't raised in a strict Religious environment, 2) come to a belief in God (when I was 16 in Biology class studying cells),

That is a complete non-sequitor. Is this belief predicated on belief in a designer? Design answers nothing about the intricacy and complexity of the living cell, it merely leads to the question "who designed the designer?"

3) come to believe in Jesus the following summer,

Based on what?

4) since then question every belief someone tells me I need to believe as a Christian and search, study, and come up with my own answers if possible (there's an awful lot I do not have answers to), and

What answers have you come up, and what were the questions?
 
I never said, "scientific process".

I got some more dry straw over here if you need it skepticgirl . . .
You said,
And science does contradict it's self. Often. A good example of it is when we started looking at planets in other systems through some of our larger teloscopes and finding eratic orbits and gas giants well beyond any speculative range. Text books were rewitten and reputations faltered. And it happens all the time.
There is no straw here, only your misuse of scientific concepts.

Science doesn't contradict anything, it can't, it is a process.

Evidence can sometimes contradict other evidence. In the end, however, there will be an explanation for the contradiction.

Conclusions people draw based on evidence are often contradictory. Your example is not valid for the point you were making.
 
That is a complete non-sequitor. Is this belief predicated on belief in a designer? Design answers nothing about the intricacy and complexity of the living cell, it merely leads to the question "who designed the designer?"

Well - it wasn't a non-sequitor for me. Sorry it is for you.


Quote:
3) come to believe in Jesus the following summer,
Based on what?

On a lifetime of very personal experiences and thoughts that led to that point that I won't be sharing with you. Sorry.


What answers have you come up, and what were the questions?

To many to list. And according to you I'm wrong on one of them: ie: Question: Are other peoples souls / fates my burden to bear? Answer - Your soul is your burden - not mine.
 
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Into unbelief? I don't think anything at this point.I was curious if my other threads would give me some interesting insight into that. I'm now convinvced that if I abandoned every single belief and ignored every reason I have them I'd be a Diest.

Into another religion? I suppose if they had a God that was bigger than mine is already I might be interested in learning more. I don't want to bother with any idea of God that's less.


This is the one bit I have never understood, why does having one god make sense to some people, but not having many gods? Wouldn't just one be even more improbable?
 
If I believe a person to be honestly mistaken, then I would not call them a liar.
In this particular case, that would mean DR can read my mind and knows my true motives and he thinks I don't know them. That's a bit of a stretch to what you are describing. Otherwise I agree with you. It annoys me when people in the forum call people who are factually wrong, liars. That is not lying.

DR is saying however, that he doesn't believe the motives I have stated for starting this thread. Kind of hard for that not to be calling someone a liar. Especially given he has also said my motives were theist bashing.
 
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OK - well then, yes, I do apply scepticism to my beliefs. I wasn't born a Christian. No one is born any religion any more than they are born a Republican or Democrat. At some point you make a decision. It could be as simple as - "Eh, I'll just stick with this religion because whatever". For me it was more tedious - the process I went through was 1) Not believe anything really seriously because I wan't raised in a strict Religious environment, 2) come to a belief in God (when I was 16 in Biology class studying cells), 3) come to believe in Jesus the following summer, 4) since then question every belief someone tells me I need to believe as a Christian and search, study, and come up with my own answers if possible (there's an awful lot I do not have answers to), and 5) when needed I do the same with new ideas or religions I come across.
Okay, so you came to a belief in God and Jesus before you started questioning? So you began your questioning from the standpoint of someone who was already a believer.

That's very interesting. Do you know why I think it's interesting?
 

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