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Is there evidence your god beliefs are true while other god beliefs are false?

Aeronautics couldn't have got off the ground (geddit?) if the Wright Bros hadn't had faith that powered flight was possible.. in the face of widespread ridicule too. The first aeroplane was a faith-based product.
Quibbling time for me.

Lillienthal (among others) had already been mucking about with aeronautics before the first successful powered flight by the Wright brothers. It got him killed. Risky business, eh? Still is.

As to the plane being "faith based" your choice of words is a bit coy. It was a mechanics based project (yes, pun intended ;) ) and its successful first flights a matter of prediction, risk, and pay off.
Epistemology is not just about generating reliable outcomes. It is also about discovering new knowledge or principles.. and to do this usually a high degree of faith is necessary.
I am not sure why you chose faith there.
DR
 
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Homoeopaths claim that homoeopathy is not an intersubjectively investigable phenomenon. Well, they don't use those words, but they claim it is not measurable in ways we currently understand. Whilst at the same time being obvious to those in the know.

If Homeopaths would subject their cures to testing to eliminate empirically harmful results and avoid diverting people from empirically helpful remedies, I would provisionally entertain claims by homeopathy users to have been benefited. The modern practice of medicine is deservedly critiqued for treating the disease instead of the patient

It is possible to hold religious beliefs after making a comparable attempt to eliminate empirically harmful practices and beliefs, and to actively refer people to empirically helpful organizations, where they exist.
 
Quibbling time for me.
I like your quibbles :)

Lillienthal (among others) had already been mucking about with aeronautics before the first successful powered flight by the Wright brothers. It got him killed. Risky business, eh? Still is.
Poor Lillienthal :(
Today he'd not only be a woo, but a dead woo :(

As to the plane being "faith based" your choice of words is a bit coy. It was a mechanics based project (yes, pun intended ;) ) and its successful first flights a matter of prediction, risk, and pay off.
The pun was 'project'(ile) was it? If so, good on yer for the subtlety ;)

I am not sure why you chose faith there.
I didn't really explain myself there.
In that a lot of knowledge gathering, in the real world, is driven by hunches, intuition, creative imagination and the like. Persisting in such knowledge gathering driven by such non-evidence-based factors relies a great deal on faith.
 
Darth - you still haven't answered why you think God beliefs are deserving of special pleading? You are more than happy to robustly discuss, critique and criticise the beliefs of others on plenty of topics, but have yet to explain coherently why you feel your particular supernatural belief is beyond question.
 
It's a shame so much as passed in the night. I would have liked the time to return to some comments, but time is one thing I'm short on. Nonetheless, this following statement is wrong:

Beliefs are more fundamental than values. First you have to believe that what you are valuing, for example, exists, in order for that value to be meaningful and worthwhile.

A 'value' is the most fundamental thing anybody has. It is the basis for desire and the inspiration for acting on anything at all. Beliefs - as in any model of anything in the universe (including the universe itself) that is formed in one's mind - are influenced by values, not the other way around. Good old Philosophy 101 stuff that.

We inherit values mostly from our immediate community and they are changed through experience.

The problem with philosophy is often anybody feels they can discuss it without ever having a damn clue what it is they're talking about.

Athon
 
I like your quibbles :)

Poor Lillienthal :(
Today he'd not only be a woo, but a dead woo :(


The pun was 'project'(ile) was it? If so, good on yer for the subtlety ;)
I wish I was that sly, but the pun was on mechanics. It is a field of physics/engineering, and the Wright brothers were bike mechanics.

DR
 
Darth - you still haven't answered why you think God beliefs are deserving of special pleading?
I have never so stated. You just did.
You are more than happy to robustly discuss, critique and criticise the beliefs of others on plenty of topics, but have yet to explain coherently why you feel your particular supernatural belief is beyond question.
Nor have I stated that, but you just did.

Do you want to have a conversation with yourself about what you think I believe? I believe that what is going on is a game, so I am playing, but maybe you don't care for my style of play.

It helps when you read what I post, rather than read into it.

In any case, whatever rows your boat.

DR
 
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In that a lot of knowledge gathering, in the real world, is driven by hunches, intuition, creative imagination and the like. Persisting in such knowledge gathering driven by such non-evidence-based factors relies a great deal on faith.

How are hunches equal to faith?
 
That is the concept of special treatment for one's own god beliefs while applying skepticism to everything else. Skeptic theists and scientist theists have been developing rationalizations for their irrational god beliefs. Define God as untestable, call the conclusions "faith based" and claim that this "faith based" 'thing' somehow exists along side of science and skepticism.

And most atheist skeptics and scientists have been satisfied with these 'special' rules for 'special' god beliefs.

Having caught up with this thoughful post, I can provide my own short answer. I don't draw a distinction between my "god beliefs" and those of others. All such beliefs have to fit into the gaps in our rational knowledge.

Why have any? Because the gaps are enormous and religion and religious practices are valuable accumulators of human experience. I hold mine because I understand how to practice them, have some evidence of their value, and find they accord with some subjective experiences.

It's certainly reasonable to be an atheist under these conditions, but I think you've avoided addressing the fact that the gaps are a real problem, regardless.
 
First, a thread recap, wherein Darth Rotor spends a very large number of words "not caring":

A. An old question frequently asked on this forum

B. Not presented in a manner that invited further discussion

So what? I note some of the atheists on this board hold religion to be evil and false. Others don't.

So what?

If so, I ask you again, why I should care about why another persons believes differently than me, religion wise.

Your assumption seems to be that religious people care about that question.

Some do, some don't.

So what?

If you don't care for my world view, presuming you think you know what it is, you are invited to enjoy your own world view.

How does that grab you?

I am curious: do you get your jollies criticizing other people's world views?

I figured out a while back that there isn't a universally right world view. If you wish to pursue that chimera, good hunting.

I ask you again, why would I care that a Hindu believes as he does?

Why should I?

Because I feel like it, and because I tend to find intelligent people with whom to bat around ideas. Many of them look at the world differently than I do, which offers my brain a chance to wrap itself around problems from multiple points of view.

You have a problem with that?

I arrived here from the best page in the universe, via a link, to the 9-11 CT page, and the Loose Change tomfoolery. Upon assessing what was up, I went into attack dog mode for a very specific purpose. For reasons of varying weight, I then checked out a few other forums and found a lot of interesting stuff to discuss.

Yes I can. I just did. An anaology does not have to be complete in all details to work, and the anaolgy in progress has to do with fit and choice. That you choose to be obtuse about that is no surprise.

Believing in a religion is an incorrect construction. Care to use English properly?

Also, why do you care? You have made your choice, may it serve you well.

I have noted numerous times on this sub forum that I do not prosletyze on the internet, as I find it a fool's errand. My journey was the result of profound human to human interactions, and if I am able to interest someone in a similar path, it will happen over a course of time, in person.

Or, it won't.

DR

I already did. I will repeat it for you.

Why should I care?


----------


I have never so stated. You just did.

As the quotes above demonstrate, you are resolute that you "don't care" about God beliefs, inferring very strongly that criticising them is impolite and presumptuous.

What's so special about theistic beliefs, of all the topics on this board, that makes them not worthy of discussion? Why is the theistic world-view so sacrosanct that for Skepchick to even ask the question she did brings you out in hives?

You must have a reason for being very willing to "go attack dog" on a Loose Changer's fallacy and their paranoid world-view, or on Oliver's politics and his anti-American world-view, but all of a sudden when it comes to theistic questions we should all agree to disagree and move on? You're happy to "get your jollies" criticising others; you're more than willing to "bat ideas around" on a myriad of other topics, but all of a sudden you find a topic at which to loudly proclaim you disinterest?

If that's not special pleading, I don't know what is.


Nor have I stated that, but you just did.
Then why are you hissing at anyone who even asks you the question? Why give a childish response of "Who cares?" rather than attempt the adult, rational, interesting and nuanced response you're more than capable of. This could be a really interesting thread, but you're sabotaging it.

If your belief is not above question, answer the OP!

Do you want to have a conversation with yourself about what you think I believe? I believe that what is going on is a game, so I am playing, but maybe you don't care for my style of play.
I'd actually like to have a robust but sensible conversation where you actually take part rather than "playing" whatever game it is you fancy today, but if you're not up for that, then that's fine too.

I have a great deal of respect for you Darth, and even where we disagree on issues, I always find your posts interesting and coherent. Why this thread has brought out the complete opposite in you, I'm at a loss to understand.

Let's quit the childishness. Just tell us why you reject all the other Gods and embrace whichever flavour of theism it is you subscribe to, and we can all have an adult discussion.

I'm serious. I am legitimately interested in "batting ideas around" with you; you're smart, sharp and normally quite cordial. Let's have a debate on this question in the manner that that you'd be perfectly willing to have on literally any other issue on the JREF.
 
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A 'value' is the most fundamental thing anybody has.
No, that would be consciousness.
It is the basis for desire
No it isn't. On what 'value' is your desire for food, water, or breath based?

and the inspiration for acting on anything at all
yes, that could be value, but could also be desire.

Beliefs - as in any model of anything in the universe (including the universe itself) that is formed in one's mind - are influenced by values, not the other way around.
You're seriously arguing that values are not influenced by beliefs? If, for example, I became convinced that all homosexuals were paedophiles.. this change in my beliefs would have a pretty significant effect on my values in regard to homosexuality.

Good old Philosophy 101 stuff that.
Time for 102? ;)

We inherit values mostly from our immediate community and they are changed through experience.
Wow, I pretty much agree.

The problem with philosophy is often anybody feels they can discuss it without ever having a damn clue what it is they're talking about.
Quite.
 
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Let's quit the childishness. Just tell us why you reject all the other Gods and embrace whichever flavour of theism it is you subscribe to, and we can all have an adult discussion.

(bolded by me)

I respect DR too, and know he's more than capable of defending himself.
I just thought I'd point out that quote. The part in bold, is, I think, why DR feels it a waste of time to get involved in this. Earlier he pointed out the embedded assumption in the OP question, and he was dead right. You're exhibiting the same assumption of automatic mutual exclusivity as does the OP.
The exclusivity is not there to the degree most atheists here seem to prefer it would be.
 
First, a thread recap, wherein Darth Rotor spends a very large number of words "not caring":
Interesting take on what I wrote. I too know how to play that game.
As the quotes above demonstrate, you are resolute that you "don't care" about God beliefs, inferring very strongly that criticising them is impolite and presumptuous.
No, you choose to read it that way. I want to know why it is assumed that a theist cares? Some do, we note that in the news frequently, but the OP was not so constructed.

Back to the OP, and my original query on why I should care about another's religious beliefs.
What's so special about theistic beliefs, of all the topics on this board, that makes them not worthy of discussion?
You tell me. I have never taken that position.
Why is the theistic world-view so sacrosanct that for Skepchick to even ask the question she did brings you out in hives?
If you read the OP, and I did, you see it for what it is. Skeptigirl has protested that her intentions are honorable.

I am skeptical. Skepticism is a tool, and a damned fine one. I don't find it appealing as a religion, or a universal principle. I realize Claus may bust me for that.
You must have a reason for being very willing to "go attack dog" on a Loose Changer's fallacy and their paranoid world-view, or on Oliver's politics and his anti-American world-view,
Yes I do. The first is centered emotionally, in my first career, and my loyalty to my group. As to my learned contempt of Eurotrash, I wasn't born with that. I learned it by interacting with Europeans during the 90's, most of whom were warm, fantastic, wonderful people, but some of whom were out and out, American bashing, Eurotrash. No, they weren't all French.
but all of a sudden when it comes to theistic questions we should all agree to disagree and move on? You're happy to "get your jollies" criticising others; you're more than willing to "bat ideas around" on a myriad of other topics, but all of a sudden you find a topic at which to loudly proclaim you disinterest?
Not quite. I have posted on this subforum for over a year. I have had any number of fruitful conversations with honest and open members about beliefs, and some of my approach.

I am wary of Greeks bearing gifts.
If that's not special pleading, I don't know what is.
Given that you have made up the position, call it what you like. It's yours.
Then why are you hissing at anyone who even asks you the question? Why give a childish response of "Who cares?" than attempt the adult, rational, interesting and nuanced response you're more than capable of. This could be a really interesting thread, but you're sabotaging it.
Because it is actually related to the opening question.

Why do you, or anyone, or our own hard working Skeptigirl, assume that I care enough about another person's religious beliefs to attempt to disprove them? That is on topic, and related to the OP.
If your belief is not above question, answer the OP!
Why, because you used an exclamation point?
I'd actually like to have a robust but sensible conversation where you actually take part rather than "playing" whatever game it is you fancy today, but if you're not up for that, then that's fine too.
Truth be told, I think my input into this thread is approaching zero value added, so I'll agree that my poking further holes in the topic cannot be added to, without once again repeating myself.
I have a great deal of respect for you Darth, and even where we disagree on issues, I always find your posts interesting and coherent. Why this thread has brought out the complete opposite in you, I'm at a loss to understand.
Not to worry. It took me a few months to discover the venom in the R & P forum, and took a bit longer to figure out what was worth discussing, and what wasn't.

That doesn't stop me from doing what a lot of posters here do, which is poking holes in assumptions embedded in premises. All of the sub forums see such action. Why is R & P sacred? Can't the game be played here?

I like your posts. We don't always agree, but I always read what you have to say with interest, even when I am in disagreement with you.
Let's quit the childishness. Just tell us why you reject all the other Gods and embrace whichever flavour of theism it is you subscribe to, and we can all have an adult discussion.
Since I never seriously considered pursuing any other God, what would be the point of discussing something I never did, and never have done? (Caveat: I have looked into the Tao, and I continue to do so, helped along by a Catholic friend of mine who also has an inquisitive nature.)
[/I]I am legitimately interested in "batting ideas around" with you; you're smart, sharp and normally quite cordial. Let's have a debate on this question in the manner that that you'd be perfectly willing to have on literally any other issue on the JREF.
I am not interested in debating my world view. Who I am is not an abstraction, nor is it your play toy. Put another way, I don't care to be talked at. (I imagine some of my targets on the various sub forums don't care for it either. Such is the Internet. ) While I may often be cordial, I can also be a right prick.

I do not care for the open assumption, operational among some participants in this group, that distills down to "you are reasonable if you agree with me." I don't consider that a basis for discussion on much of anything.

My perspective took my whole life to develop. If I choose to discuss it with anyone here in other than a person to person encounter, I'll let you know. Here's one tidbit for you: the philosophy is far more appealing than the doctrine, which varies so broadly as to lose some of its value. As I noted months ago in a conversation here, I am not trained in Christian apologetics, and will not offer a rube's version of them. I can only speak for myself when it comes to faith, and from what I have observed.

Beyond that, for now, the answer is no.

I am still awaiting a response to why I should care about another religionist's beliefs. That is directly related to the OP. Given that this is page seven, I guess I'll accept I won't get an answer.

Cheers.

DR
 
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Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic
So my Ice Cream comparison was appropriate!
Only if you view your religion as a mere personal preference, and as something completely trivial that in no way implies anything about reality.

Actually, I believe all religion is a personal choice. People can make that choice using any prefences they want, and I'll do the same and any reasons I have will be my own. And I absolutely do not think Ice Cream is completely trivial - it's very delicious and contributes greatly to my enjoyment of life.
 
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I think Beth had it right - we are just not the right sort of Thiests that this thread was designed for. The good thing is - I don't feel so alone out here in Randi's corner of cyberspace!
 
... I am still awaiting a response to why I should care about another religionist's beliefs. That is directly related to the OP. Given that this is page seven, I guess I'll accept I won't get an answer.

Very nice post.

To this last bit though, wouldn't you have to know another's religious beliefs before you know whether you should care about them?

Myself, I'm fascinated by religious beliefs because none of them make sense. And I gladly include my own lack of belief in that mix. My lame contention is my lack of belief is less nonsensical than any belief I've encountered so far, though I am rather fond of Reform Judaism and Zen Buddhism. But [ir]religion reveals at once our most serious and foolish (and human) face to the world, and there's no shame in it -- none of us is even close to as smart as we think we are, or pretend we are, and religion is certainly the best evidence we have for that.

So, for me religion is a chance to poke fun at ourselves and each other. A slanging match: "Your God is so stupid... etc." Christ is just begging for Groucho glasses. I know that's the wrong attitude, as most people are very touchy about their religion for reasons not being religious I've never understood (though I suspect it has a lot to do with the fear of losing loved ones forever, which I share, and to which I respond, "nobody knows what happens after you die; anyone says they do is a damn fool and liar... just hope for the best").

Anyway... what the hell was I talking about? Oh yeah, while I can understand not being interested in religion per se, in not caring about others' specific beliefs, it seems you're assuming in advance that all world-views -- religious and non-religious -- are benign. I think most are -- it irritates me when even benign religions make grandiose claims to ultimate truth based on nothing but hubris and ignorance (but that's just me) -- most of the time, but I know all aren't all the time. Which is another reason I pay attention to religion (mostly for the entertainment, though).

Do you have a different reason for not caring about others' religion? (Person-to-person, I could care less, but online... why not? A great excuse to kiss and/or kick some sacred butt, and we could all, God(s) included, benefit from that -- no?)

Thanks. ;)
 
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To the extent this relates to my post, I'm not at all "offended" by the OP. I just don't think the question is the inescapable logical fork it has been held out to be. Also, its more than the 'general philosophy' its a whole list of things you actually do. They have an effect on humans precisely because we are physical, social beings.

Poor wording on my part. Irked maybe? In any case it's clear the question is next to meaningless for people who are not hung up on the 'facts' of any religion being true (or at least not the testable 'facts'). 'General philosophy' was just my cheap way of saying 'most of the stuff besides the 'facts''. I will stop with the finger-quotes now.

I'm not worried about people who use religion to teach love and charity

It's more than teaching ideas. Some things/feelings/communications you need to choreograph with other people. It's a way of organizing some of that.

I don't think you've given fair shift to the more mundane value that churches can add to lots of lives either. Can you think of many other venues where the average denizen of an american city can get together to sing? Put on plays? The art may be lame, but it's a chance to do-it-yourself, not just consume it. Try to do charity work? Talk and think about taking care of each other?

Community theater! Any charitable organization you like. A close-knit club or group of friends.

Of course it would be silly of me to argue that your average Christian church isn't a great and obvious place to go for that sort of thing. But just like you can't (and presumably wouldn't want to) shake your feelings about God, there are lots of people who don't feel comfortable trying to go and enjoy these positive aspects, knowing full well they are not going to be able to believe anything in the service that's about Him. Apart from anything else, it feels like mooching, to me. I used to go to my friends' churches sometimes and the feeling of being an outsider during prayer was fairly powerful. There can be and are other places people can go for a sense of community. It seems to me that churches just have hundreds and thousands of years of dibs on it. And I really don't like that community for the masses MUST be rolled up in the trappings of religion. It's just too easy to get used to being led.

I think that if there is any religious value in the statement Pe'le controls the volcanos, it has nothing to do with the physical processes geology is exploring. I can dismiss anyone who claims it does because I have a much better method for thinking about those claims.

In this context the purpose, effects and history of the myth are important, the facts of the myth are not. I would agree. I do not believe the OP was speaking to persons with a rational attitude such as yours. I do not believe anyone the OP was speaking to has shown up. I agree that there are plenty of religious people that aren't nuts. It is always nice to hear from them. I have had religious people try to tell me the Bible is right and the Koran is wrong. I would like to know what in the heck they think they are talking about. But they are not here.
 
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No it isn't. On what 'value' is your desire for food, water, or breath based?

They are not referred to as desires, at least in sociology, but rather needs. You biologically cannot survive without water, air and food. However, 'values' involve an evaluation of where such qualities rank in order. Most sociologists categorise needs distinctly above values, as they cannot change (being biologically significant on a functional level).

Values can involve aspects of needs (such as types of food or source of water), but the 'desire' itself is not commonly described as a value.

yes, that could be value, but could also be desire.

It might simply be a matter of talking around definitions, but value as used in sociology does not tend to be used in that fashion.

You're seriously arguing that values are not influenced by beliefs? If, for example, I became convinced that all homosexuals were paedophiles.. this change in my beliefs would have a pretty significant effect on my values in regard to homosexuality.
Values are much more fundamental. The value is not in homosexuality's evil - which is a belief - but rather lies beneath that. The cause of that belief is a value, one which might be in the word of the bible, the opinion of the community, or in a value of a perceived 'norm' (the value of averages, I heard it once described as...which I thought was a rather good term).

We always frame our beliefs with regards to the values we possess, be they themselves entrenched in a philosophy of critical thinking or social thinking.

Time for 102? ;)

Classes start after Xmas. :)

Athon
 

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