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The reason for a death penalty

LOL. Thanks guys. As you can see, Claus' attacks on me are less of a rational response than some old animosity left over from previous battles. I probably don't make things any better by teasing him, but be assured that I have no animosity toward someone just because they disagree with me on this. I was in your camp for many years and I still am in the "execution should be extremely rare" camp. I have simply grown to be leery of taking absolutetist positions.

Though it has been pointed out to him before, Claus doesn't seem to grasp the obvious fact that his style of argumentation poorly serves the positions he defends.
 
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Feel free to point out where I am wrong.

Simple - he hasn't said that he would only execute people he doesn't like. ETA: (Or even as you said that he would do "Whoever Tricky doesn't like, he will execute").
 
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Simple - he hasn't said that he would only execute people he doesn't like. ETA: (Or even as you said that he would do "Whoever Tricky doesn't like, he will execute").
Correct. In fact, I have given one detailed example of a person who I think is the scum of the earth, yet I still wouldn't execute him. (See post #183.)

You've hit rock bottom, Claus. Stop digging.
 
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Correct. In fact, I have given one detailed example of a person who I think is the scum of the earth, yet I still wouldn't execute him. (See post #183.)

Oh?

Who would you execute, and why?

As opposed to "Because I feel like it, dammit!"

If you can't state exactly who you would execute, and why, you have proven me right.
 
If you can't state exactly who you would execute...
Those who would be a greater danger to society in general if they were left alive than if they were dead.

...and why,
Because they would be a greater danger to society in general if they were left alive than if they were dead.

...you have proven me right.
You have a funny idea of what proves your right, and an even funnier idea of what proves you wrong. Though I gave you a clear example of someone who I don't like (in fact detest) but wouldn't execute, I'm still waiting for you to admit this statement was wrong:
CFLarsen said:
Whoever Tricky doesn't like, he will execute.
 
"Blood lust" again? What is it with some anti-DP folks using this term to demonize those who disagree with them? I think they must have some subliminal love of the concept of "blood lust" since they keep bringing it up.

I am not demonising you. I am accurately describing what DP advocate want as is everyone else who uses the term.

What is it about some pro DP people that they have to resort to euphemism to hide from the reality of their views? I think they must have some subliminal abhorrence of the truth to keep finding problems with it.

I think it is better to face DP advocates with the truth rather than to stay silent and let the innocent and the mad be put to death. What are 'hurt feelings' against the deliberate judicial murder of an innocent person? Nothing, I'm afraid.
 
I disagree with this statement (including premises) in a variety of ways, but at least it relates to the topic. More than I can say for the orig referenced post, ie:

"Obviously to this US administration torture is civilised and like the Chinese government, and Bush in Texas you have to kill a few innocent people to in order keep the masses under control"

:rolleyes:
if you had read the thread you would have read that I was responding to a specific post. The death penalty is a method of controlling people. You don't want to discuss that aspect. So be it. But if you don't want to discuss comparisons with the death penalty you should have posted a list of areas you won't touch.


er if you were paying attention, you'd notice I and others ARE discussing the actual thread topic. Feel free to join. But if you want to GW bash, please start up a thread or join one of the many others already floating around. Thanks.
I may be wrong here but George Bush is a major player in the USA dearth penalty, Texas under his governorship having been a major player and my comment I believe is completely apposite for his behaviour. If you don't want to discuss that area of the death penalty as used in the USA you should have posted a list of areas that you wouldn't touch. Thanks.

lol. Thx for confirming what I already suspected, ie there's little point in paying attention to your posts in this thread. You're either a troll or simply incapable of discussing this rationally. I really don't care which it is.


Apologies to the rest of you. Back to the actual topic.
If you can't face up to the reality of what the death penalty is , what are you doing on a discussion forum.

AS there is no imperative to judicially murder people in most countries of the world and the USA is up in the top three countries in judicially putting its own people to death I believe, the description is completely adequate.

I knew it was pointless paying attention to your posts in the thread as you still haven't provided us with the list of terms and areas that you won't discuss? Apologies to the rest of you. Back to the truth.
 
Blood lust is killing for killings sake. For it to be bloodlust Tricky would be wanting someone to put themselves in a position to be executed so that person could be killed, thus allowing Tricky what scientists call "his jollies."

This is like saying someone who is pro-abortion wants to kill babies. Maybe there is some sicko that thinks that way, but most of us sane people would rather that the need for an abortion not arise, but if it does it should be safe and legal.

Likewise, the death penalty is an unfortunate remedy to a problem that hopefully never arises.

Judicially killing people when most of the countries in the world do not consider it necessary is 'blood lust'. Some comments used in this thread include: -

'You want to give him the easy way out and kill him only once?' about someone not yet found guilty.
'It's simply not cost effective' ( to imprison someone for life)
'It would be better for him if he was executed.'
'It is less cruel' (to kill someone rather than keep them in prison)
'Why waste my time talking to garbage society has disposed to rot in a human land fill? Darth Rotor
'Saves a lot of taxpayer money'
"Being 'crazy' does not excuse the crimes in ANY way.' Big Red
'I think that disregarding a solution...' (judicial murder for innocent people) '...because it isn't perfect is unacceptable even in this case.' Big Red

There we have a clear demonstration of contempt for the lives of those in prison- from the basic contempt from Darth Rotor to what I call 'blood lust' . This is particularly exemplified by Big Red's opinion that, not only is it OK to judicially murder innocent people as the price for having an imperfect system but also that the mentally ill can be judicially murdered.

He is entitled to his opinions but I find them sick. There is no imperative to judicially murder people who may be innocent simply because a few on the fringe of society would rather have them dead than pay for sick and potentially innocent people to be kept alive.

The death penalty is a sick solution to a problem that arises all the time - as recognised by most countries on the planet. Killing the sick and innocent because you don't value human life is killing for killing's sake and the very definition of 'blood lust.'
 
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I think that blog excessively demonizes anally molesting newborn babies to death. I mean don't get me wrong, you really really shouldn't anally molest newborn babies, but really it's not as bad as they say. Newborn babies can barely grasp the idea that there is a world beyond their nose, let alone that they are being raped. Anally raping newborn babies is therefore not significantly worse than any other way of killing newborn babies.

Also, I still totally oppose the death penalty. Killing him isn't going to bring the baby back, thus the only good that can come out of punishment is in preventing future crimes, through deterrence or removal from society or whatever. I think that the set of people who would anally molest babies if the penalty was lots of time in jail but who would change their mind only when the death penalty comes into mind would be insanely small, and similarly I think that. To say that he should be killed simply because he is worthless scum ist just spite for spite's sake.


Also yeah, he hasn't even been found guilty, which is kind of important.
I just started reading this thread. This response from you, whatever you are, is nearly as bad as the original crime. Perhaps if this had been your baby you'd feel differently. Maybe not, it's not really as bad as they say it is.
 
I am not demonising you. I am accurately describing what DP advocate want as is everyone else who uses the term.

What is it about some pro DP people that they have to resort to euphemism to hide from the reality of their views? I think they must have some subliminal abhorrence of the truth to keep finding problems with it.

I think it is better to face DP advocates with the truth rather than to stay silent and let the innocent and the mad be put to death. What are 'hurt feelings' against the deliberate judicial murder of an innocent person? Nothing, I'm afraid.
Those points have all been addressed. Perhaps you don't agree with the reasoning that was employed in addressing them, as is your right, but to continue to use pejoratives in describing those who have well considered opinions that differ from yours is a sure way to find your opinions disregarded by all except those who are equally absolutist in their opinions.

You speak of truth as if it were something that you understand and I don't. Well I don't claim to know "truth". I have considered opinions. Sometimes I'm wrong, but to say I have "blood lust" is about as wrong as anything can be. I hate killing. I don't hunt or even own a gun. One of my favorite hobbies is nature photography.

My opinions on the death penalty are based on what I feel is best for the benefit of all humans, not just the ones on death row. I'm not sure where you acquired the belief that the preservation of any single human life is more important than the well-being of humanity in general, but I disagree with that position. Respectfully. Without pejoratives.
 
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Those who would be a greater danger to society in general if they were left alive than if they were dead.

That's not "exactly". That's a general statement.

Because they would be a greater danger to society in general if they were left alive than if they were dead.

How can society be in danger if people are in jail? If that is your argument, then you are saying that jails are not the way to deal with criminals at all.

You have a funny idea of what proves your right, and an even funnier idea of what proves you wrong. Though I gave you a clear example of someone who I don't like (in fact detest) but wouldn't execute, I'm still waiting for you to admit this statement was wrong:

Nope. Not wrong.

What is it about some pro DP people that they have to resort to euphemism to hide from the reality of their views? I think they must have some subliminal abhorrence of the truth to keep finding problems with it.

Or they don't - but know that, if they voiced what they really felt, it would come across as frothing bloodlust.

So they wrap it up nicely. Not "death penalty". Not "state sanctioned killing". But "capital punishment".
 
I propose we all ignore Larsen. He's not helping... anything, really.

Personally, I'm torn. I can see the arguments both for and against the death penalty. Personally, I think there are times when it is acceptable to kill another human being; in self defense, for one. At the same time, the death penalty is not the same as self defense. Self defense is done at the time of the crime, to prevent the crime from taking place... the death penalty is punishment for a previous crime, and cannot be applied until the original crime took place. While it might be to prevent further murders, the fact is that the death penalty is not applied to murderers or killers before they kill, or if they threaten to kill, but instead if they kill... so it's not necessarily to prevent the murderer's action. If it was to prevent further action, then you'd have to explain why life in prison, or even 20 years in prison, are less likely to prevent the crime than death.

Then there's the prevention of the actions of other murderers. Essentially, fear of the death chamber is supposed to inspire fear in other potential murderers. Though this tends to assume that the person isn't murdering out of passion (where the person is usually not in control of all of their faculties), and somewhat dubious when it comes to compulsion... I'd like to see if there's any actual evidence that life in prison is less of a deterrent than the death penalty. In fact, states which have the death penalty also tend to have the highest murder rates... usually because politicians want to do something about the murder rate as opposed to the death penalty causing murder. However, I just don't see any link between the death penalty lessening actual crimes committed. I'm willing to change my mind on this, though, with provided evidence.

Then there's the risks with sentencing people to death. Put 'em in jail for life, and you're more likely to find out that they're innocent and be able to free them after, say, 10 years of injustice. You can't take back killing someone (yet). And even though we have modern ways to convict criminals that are more effective, such as DNA testing, I've read that even they are unreliable. DNA is not as exact as people like to say, and partial matches are more accepted than they should be... and DNA testing can be rushed for high profile cases where the prosecution wants a quick conviction. There's just as much room for corruption and mistakes as there ever were, even with DNA. We're developing even more advanced methods of testing, but in the end, I just don't think we'll come up with a perfect system.

Now, that's all in support against the death penalty. However, I claimed to see both sides. So, what about supporting the death penalty? Well, the biggest argument I would use personally is, quite simply, jail space. There's just not enough... prisons are filling, even overfilling. And, if you ask me, I don't like how prisons are run in general. Even people that are innocent can come out much more hardened and more knowledgeable about how to commit crimes than they were going in. I've heard personal accounts of how prisons are run... the guards tend to try to divide the prisoners, spawn off one group to hate another, spawn off things like racism to keep the prisoners from banding together. I really don't think that inspiring hate is a good way to run things... period. I think that it makes things worse, never better. But whether or not jails are run well, has little to do with the death penalty IMO... that's more an argument for revamping how prisons are handled.

Now, while overfilling the jails is a problem, there's an easier solution, I think. While people that go for life fill up a jail for the rest of their lives, there are still a greater number of people being put in jail for minor offenses. And they've certainly been filling up since the drug war... I say we stop throwing people in prison for smoking a joint, or even doing some harder drugs. I don't see the point of acting like our own citizens are criminals because they use drugs. Junkies are about as much of "criminals" as peaceful protesters are, in my opinion. Stop jailing junkies, and we'll get lots more jail space for people that have done far more serious crimes.

In the end, when it comes out, I just don't support the death penalty. And I don't like the arguments for the death penalty that involve "punishment" in the eye-for-an-eye sense or actual hate. So you hate the guy. So he did really bad things. So there were nazis that were executed, and we all hate nazis. But that's all emotional, it's not rational. It'll never be rational... it's an emotional response to something that shouldn't be based purely on emotion, in my opinion.

That's my 2 cents, at least.

ETA: I just want to add that I haven't read all of this thread. For all I know, someone's already addressed a point that I've made. If that is so, please link me back to the post and I'll respond.
 
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I haven't read all of this thread either, so perhaps I should not be involved here: but I did want to pick up something Lonewolf said

Well, the biggest argument I would use personally is, quite simply, jail space. There's just not enough... prisons are filling, even overfilling.

The USA has 645 per 100,000 of population in jail: the UK 125 (Home office Research and Development Directorate: Research Findings No 88)

It rather begs the question of how much it too much. Surely this is a straightforward question of how much a society is prepared to spend on prisons, compared with other means of addressing crime? I find it really hard to believe that the USA has 5 times the serious crime of the UK, and it may be true that people are jailed for more minor offenses there. As Lonewolf says, this is a simpler way to address the problem, and it seems to me to meet all of the arguments based on cost which were adduced earlier in this thread. It does not help with the moral issues directly, but perhaps if it were recognised that jail is itself a very draconian measure then we would be less likely to feel it was an inadequate response to very serious crime? Just a thought
 
I haven't read all of this thread either, so perhaps I should not be involved here: but I did want to pick up something Lonewolf said



The USA has 645 per 100,000 of population in jail: the UK 125 (Home office Research and Development Directorate: Research Findings No 88)

It rather begs the question of how much it too much. Surely this is a straightforward question of how much a society is prepared to spend on prisons, compared with other means of addressing crime? I find it really hard to believe that the USA has 5 times the serious crime of the UK, and it may be true that people are jailed for more minor offenses there. As Lonewolf says, this is a simpler way to address the problem, and it seems to me to meet all of the arguments based on cost which were adduced earlier in this thread. It does not help with the moral issues directly, but perhaps if it were recognised that jail is itself a very draconian measure then we would be less likely to feel it was an inadequate response to very serious crime? Just a thought

Following on from both of your points - I was wondering if having the death sentence for crimes would significantly reduce the prison population - I find it hard to consider that even people for the death sentence think that there should be thousands if not tens of thousands of their fellow citizens executed every year. (Which is what it would take to make a significant inroad on number of prisoners in jail.)

Also has having a death sentence ever been been shown to be either more or less a deterrent than just prison sentences?
 
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Yeah, Darat, just repeat what I basically said. That's nice. Just ignore me. -.-





(Okay, so you brought up a new subject with the "tens of thousands" of people executed, which is a very good point...)
 
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I propose we all ignore Larsen. He's not helping... anything, really.
Finally, someone gets it; thank you. Don't forget his sidekick EJ :rolleyes:

the death penalty is punishment for a previous crime,
exzachary.

I'd like to see if there's any actual evidence that life in prison is less of a deterrent than the death penalty.
Me too. :cool: Offhand I make no claims either way.

Then there's the risks with sentencing people to death. Put 'em in jail for life, and you're more likely to find out that they're innocent and be able to free them after, say, 10 years of injustice.
True enough. In fact the only worthwhile argument against it, IMO.

I just don't think we'll come up with a perfect system.
Of course not. But that doesn't invalidate the system (we've gone down this road in ealier posts).

Well, the biggest argument I would use personally is, quite simply, jail space. There's just not enough... prisons are filling, even overfilling.
A tough problem but not a valid defense of the death penalty IMO.

Stop jailing junkies, and we'll get lots more jail space for people that have done far more serious crimes.
hoo boy, talk about a dicey idea/slippery slope, although I hear what you're saying......

I don't like the arguments for the death penalty that involve "punishment" in the eye-for-an-eye sense or actual hate. So you hate the guy. So he did really bad things. So there were nazis that were executed, and we all hate nazis. But that's all emotional, it's not rational. It'll never be rational... it's an emotional response to something that shouldn't be based purely on emotion, in my opinion.
Disagree entirely. First it isn't about hate or being an emotional response. Again: it's about the punishment fitting the crime. I certainly understand those who say there is no such crime that merits the death penalty; I just don't agree.
 

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