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Witnesses Corroborating Rodriguez's Claims?

You lost this battle. The more you drag it out the worse you look.

Now you want to play semantics?

Listen, buddy, you posted on this thead that I claimed I'm "an expert on explosives" and I called you on it and put my money where my mouth is. You lost. Be a man and get over it.
 
Find me the post where I explicitly stated that I am an "expert on explosives" and I will send you a money order for $50. So far you haven't taken a crack at any of the more difficult points I've raised, only attempted to ridicule me using truly childish methods. Your $50 is waiting. Consider it beer money for your high school's graduation party, if you can even win it from me.
Yes you claimed you were an expert and you know about explosives, pay up.

You have no facts, you have no difficult stuff to debunk you just have your failed ideas.
 
By the way, I have a really great resource available to me who I'm going to talk to this weekend. One of my neighbors is only in his late 20's and has already served in the U.S. Special Forces in Afghanistan, and has finished his service. He can't talk about any details of the actual operations he was on, but we've had some great talks about the general types of things he's trained in. I bet anything he's an "explosives expert" (i'm just an "explosives amateur" of course) and can help settle quite a few issues here.
 
Thank you Lurker, I want to get back on track with this, but I'm going to lunch right now. While I was out last night I had this great thought to add to that debate which I'm going to think over and then post. I want everyone reading this to know that R.Mackey is the only member of this discussion so far who has presented anything worth serioulsy responding to, and I intend to keep responding to his points. It just takes time. Most of the other posts have devolved into an irrelevant pissing contest, dont you think?
I have learned from your post. You are going to lunch, and you will never have facts to support your opinions on 9/11.
 
Find me the law that says that if you're going to make that assertion. I've already admitted quite a few times on this board that I doubt I can produce any new "evidence" in this debate, only a potentially more plausible theory.

Take a look here for the standard NTSB operating procedure, and here for an article discussing the legal precedent. The fact that the CVR was played for relatives is itself much more release than usual. Hardly indicative of a "cover-up."

Also read here where the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals clearly indicates that any release of the CVR, even to other investigations, is predicated on willingness of family members to allow it. This demonstrates, as I said above, that the fundamental issue is one of right to privacy, not caprice of the Bush Administration.


Haven't you realized that "legal" and "illegal" are what G.W.Bush says they are at any given moment? There is nothing legally set in stone preventing those recordings from being released. There are also FOIA requests, and a responsibility to the public in a supposedly free society that evidence about an event that triggered two wars should be seen by all. That trumps your weak "privacy" argument.

The very existence of the FOIA system dispels any such notion of tyranny, as you suggest above. I can only assume your grasp of international history is as weak as that of explosives.
 
Yes you claimed you were an expert and you know about explosives, pay up.

Find me the quote where I said that and I will paypal you $50. I said I used to build and test "things that go BOOM" with my 17 year old friends while in high school. No rational person would interpret that as me claiming to be an "expert." So when's your high school graduation party, anyway? You the same year as Totovader?
 
Listen, buddy, you posted on this thead that I claimed I'm "an expert on explosives" and I called you on it and put my money where my mouth is. You lost. Be a man and get over it.

You ignored my entire point- how does that mean I'm not a man?

You changed your assertion- that's not my fault. As I said in the post you completely ignored: either you were asserting expertise, or you were saying absolutely nothing useful.

Which is it?

Or is this what you do when you're called out on such ridiculous claims- play semantics?
 
Find me the law that says that if you're going to make that assertion. I've already admitted quite a few times on this board that I doubt I can produce any new "evidence" in this debate, only a potentially more plausible theory.

Haven't you realized that "legal" and "illegal" are what G.W.Bush says they are at any given moment? There is nothing legally set in stone preventing those recordings from being released. There are also FOIA requests, and a responsibility to the public in a supposedly free society that evidence about an event that triggered two wars should be seen by all. That trumps your weak "privacy" argument.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2897728&postcount=28
 
I'm not interested in your snide, "smartass" psychological analysis of why I might not want to call Mike Pecoraro. Why don't you call him and tape it if you're so shameless? After all, it's you who has put your face and name out there and made 9-11 "debunking" into a full-time job. You're practically a member of the press now. I think you should call him.

but yea go ahead, the truth may not be worth 5 bucks of my money but it is certainly worth 5 bucks of someone-elses. why dont you ring felipe David...his testimony is far more damning of the official stroy?


9/11 was an inside job, and as soon as the people who don't believe it was an inside job get off their asses and do my work for me and give me the evidence that proves my claims, I'll shut them right up (as long as I'm out of pocket less than five dollars)!
87904670cd1dc0fcb.jpg


Could these people possibly be any more pathetic?
 
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now i'm REALLY going to lunch. sheesh.

The very existence of the FOIA system dispels any such notion of tyranny, as you suggest above. I can only assume your grasp of international history is as weak as that of explosives.

Since I have to really go to lunch now, just replying to that:

"Bush Aides Block Clinton's Papers From 9/11 Panel"
By PHILIP SHENON and DAVID E. SANGER
The New York Times
April 2, 2004
http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorintelligence/bushaides.html

It's your grasp of "the way things really are" that is weak. Like I said, the law is only what G.W.Bush says it is at any given moment. Gosh, I wonder why the Bush administration would want to block "thousands of pages of classified foreign policy and counterterrorism documents from former President Bill Clinton's White House" from the 9/11 Commission investigators? Could it be evidence that Clinton was doing a good job? Or even more frightening, could it be evidence that Clinton was IN on the conspiracy?

The "existence" of the FOIA proves nothing. It's how any given adminstration administers the FOIA that proves something. I have to admit, and i know it's a little bit embarrassing, but I'm a card-carrying member of the "reality-based community." (God, I just feel like came out of the closet or something.)
 
9/11 was an inside job, and as soon as the people who don't believe it was an inside job get off their asses and do my work for me and give me the evidence that proves my claims, I'll shut them right up (as long as I'm out of pocket less than five dollars)![qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/87904670cd1dc0fcb.jpg[/qimg]

Could these people possibly be any more pathetic?

"Clunkity Clunk smelly twoofer clunkity clunk."
 
I'm not saying for a second that's what happened, I'm just saying the likelihood and ease of using explosives on 9-11 is very high, and anyone arguing otherwise ought to remove their head from the sand.


Brasil: Part of being a careful researcher regarding 9/11 involves comparing various aspects of the event to make sure they agree with and don't contradict each other. Mackey here has discussed the thesis of jet fuel being a more probable cause of any damage in the basements than non-jet-fuel explosives (I won't add to that because I haven't the expertise, and he's handling it well enough on his own). Another angle to investigate would involve the injuries the victims sustained. If you are correct, then there should be evidence of overpressure injuries. I'm still working on that, but my point is that mere assertion regarding the "likelihood and ease of using explosives on 9-11" is not strong argument. It is unsupported. If you could elaborate on your opinions by including more observations, reported and acknowledged facts, and present supporting evidence that can be independently researched rather than simply presenting assertions, the debate here can proceed more smoothly.

---

TAM, Gravy, and others:

On the note above (his quote I've excerpted), I've been trying to research the concept of a high explosives blast occuring under the WTCs from the point of view of injuries reported. Specifically, I've been trying to locate sources that discussed seeing any cases of tympanic (eardrum) or alveolar (lung) overpressure injuries. I've only found a few reports here and there of ear injuries - although a couple only specified one eardrum, and no accompanying respiratory distress (which doesn't rule out explosives, but does argue against it), and I'm completely striking out on lung overpressure injuries; I'm simply finding no reported cases.

But, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, as the saying goes, so I'm wondering if you two (or anybody else) has any info regarding the specific issue of overpressure injuries. If, as Brasil purports, explosives were used, we should be seeing a plethora of reports of such tympanic or alveolar injuries, like we do in the reportage of the Madrid bombings (here's one example of many, from "Emergency Radiology": http://www.springerlink.com/content/k323178048673w12/fulltext.pdf), the bus bombings in Israel during the Intifada, or the Oklahoma City event. Here's my question: Do you know of any sources that deal specifically with listing the injuries treated during 9/11?

And TAM (bolding and coloring to catch your attention :D), since you're a doctor, I was hoping to get your help on this specific find: This report from "Morbidity and Mortality Weekly" Titled "Rapid Assessment of Injuries Among Survivors of the Terrorist Attack on the World Trade Center — New York City, September 2001" (Link: http://www.terrorisminfo.mipt.org/pdf/mmwrvol51no1_01112002.pdf). It's a short article, unfortunately, but I was interested in eliciting comment from you on it. From what I as a layman can read from it, there's a conspicuous absence of any overpressure injuries recorded in that study, but I may have missed something due to my lack of expertise. Would you mind taking a peek at it when you have the time and seeing if you can find anything regarding that?

BTW, only the first few pages are relevant; the rest of that link includes completely off topic articles (Childrens' nutrition in Mongolia, an Arizona Salmonella outbreak, etc.) that should just be ignored.
 
Find me the quote where I said that and I will paypal you $50. I said I used to build and test "things that go BOOM" with my 17 year old friends while in high school. No rational person would interpret that as me claiming to be an "expert." So when's your high school graduation party, anyway? You the same year as Totovader?

You did claim to know a lot about explosives. Were you just saying that for giggles?
 
Find me the quote where I said that and I will paypal you $50. I said I used to build and test "things that go BOOM" with my 17 year old friends while in high school. No rational person would interpret that as me claiming to be an "expert." So when's your high school graduation party, anyway? You the same year as Totovader?
I wonder, you say you know a lot; but what?
I know a lot about explosives… saying the likelihood and ease of using explosives on 9-11 is very high…
You post that you know a lot, i.e. expert, and then you make a wild claim cause you are a person who knows a lot!

You said it, I call it; you owe it! Better eat lunch, you do not eat crow well.



He said he noes a lot, then makes a claim; just like an expert; the definition of expert; claim knowledge, make statement from that knowledge; Expert like! Good job, you claim it, then do not claim it; then claim you will get your buddy to save your ideas of woo.
 
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9/11 was an inside job, and as soon as the people who don't believe it was an inside job get off their asses and do my work for me and give me the evidence that proves my claims, I'll shut them right up (as long as I'm out of pocket less than five dollars)!

Could these people possibly be any more pathetic?

Ok, I'll call him, or if he's cool with it, video interview him. If you or anyone else on here has his number please PM it to me, otherwise I'll start looking for it. Nice "quote mining" Gravy, btw. For the record, my reason for not wanting to call him is/was out of respect, and wanting to leave him in peace.
 
Or is this what you do when you're called out on such ridiculous claims- play semantics?


Woooow, wait, hold your horses, do we have a 'debunker' accusing a 'smelly tin hat wearin troofer' of playing semantics, when all the 'debunkers' do all the time is play semantics?

The double standards are getting better and better here.
 
Since I have to really go to lunch now, just replying to that:

"Bush Aides Block Clinton's Papers From 9/11 Panel"
By PHILIP SHENON and DAVID E. SANGER
The New York Times
April 2, 2004
http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorintelligence/bushaides.html


You are getting more and more off-topic with every post, at this point. This is what we sometimes refer to around here as "The Truther Shuffle."

I'm not interested in your personal politics. I too have severe problems with the Bush Administration. However, unless you can show where the 9/11 Commission, NIST, ASCE, NTSB, FAA, FBI, or any other investigating body actually made mistakes, then your complaints don't amount to a hill of beans. We aren't arguing the method of investigation, we're arguing its conclusion. That conclusion is, without a doubt, that 19 hijackers coordinated by al-Qaeda took over four airliners and crashed them deliberately, leading to destruction of numerous buildings and thousands of deaths. Period.

If you continue to go off-topic, I will request review from the moderators. You are, of course, welcome to concede my arguments regarding performance in the basement of WTC 1 and 2 and start a new thread, but I doubt I will participate unless you increase the quality of your arguments.
 
"Clunkity Clunk smelly twoofer clunkity clunk."
Let me fix your errors in your post. Next time do it right.

truther.jpg

9/11 was an inside job, and as soon as the people who don't believe it was an inside job get off their asses and do my work for me and give me the evidence that proves my claims, I'll shut them right up (as long as I'm out of pocket less than five dollars)!
 
ElMondo, I haven't seen any accounts that noted the specific types of injuries you're looking for. All the basement injuries that I'm aware of are

1) Leg and back injuries to occupants of elevators that stopped suddenly
2) People being knocked down by the explosions and having things fall on them
3) Flash burns from the fireballs

Kenneth Johannemann:
I was waiting by the elevator to go to the restrooms, and then there was a big bang, and the whole building shook. The elevator door flew open, and a guy stumbled out, and he was badly burned. He was a delivery guy. The skin from his wrist was hanging down past his fingertips. http://www.abm.com/ilwwcm/resources/file/eb000c0fdc64a5c/Alliance-911.pdf

Kenny Johannemann was in the number one tower of the World Trade centre, waiting for the elevator in the basement.

It was shift-change time, the time of day when the building is most crowded.

"The lift door exploded open. there was a man inside half burnt. His skin was hanging off.

"I dragged him out of the lift and somebody helped me get him out for the building. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/23/1030052968600.html

Johannemann video:
"What happened was, I was down in the basement, all of sudden we heard a loud bang. And the elevator doors blew open, some guy was burnt up, so I dragged him out, his skin was all hanging off, so I dragged him out and pulled him outta the parking lot [inaudible]" See video: http://tinyurl.com/8qay5
http://tinyurl.com/8qay5

Had the victim been close enough to a high explosive to be burned like that, he'd be dead and the elevator and shaft would have been blown to bits.

ALL of the burn injury descriptions are similar, and several people on higher floors describe the jet fuel dripping on them, getting in their eyes, and inhaling it as they were burned.

I don't know if I'll ever be able to fathom why the conspiracists don't believe these victims.
 
You show me conclusive proof (and that means a primary source with a "verifiable chain of custody" - thanks Minadin) of ANYTHING that happened on flight 93 and i'll personally send you $100. Just to let you know, a written transcript released by the FBI does not cut it, nor does an audio recording you found on the web.

Just like my other questions about minimizing casualties, and the destruction of evidence, I find it more than a little interesting that while the USG was quoting Todd Beamer's alleged battle cry in their war propaganda, they were simultaneously suppressing the flight data recordings and when they finally did show it to the families years later, they were not even allowed to take notes. Why don't you explain the reasoning behind that.

That's a direct question for you, since you don't seem to be bothering with answering what I'm actually asking: Why did the USG feel the need to suppress the flight data and voice recordings from flight 93, which have still not been released to this day, and only let the families listen to the recording once and not let them take notes? You tell me right now how that fits into your grand theory of 9-11.

And $100, while not a huge sum, is on the table for that other challenge. You can hold me to that.

Once again, in good old "truther" fashion, they want a guided tour of the evidence, an FBI agent to take them by the hand and show them the plane parts, to show them the bits and pieces of bone and flesh. If not, then it "doesn't cut it".

Get use to it...that is the way the REAL WORLD works.

TAM:)
 

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