Witnesses Corroborating Rodriguez's Claims?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

well you have his phone number so why dont you do it and save me the price of an international call.

Heh. The "truth" isn't worth the price of an international phone call to you. Nice.

 

[brasil]

Classic, classic truther investigative method into these extremely important "inside job bombings."

"There's something I really need to know. Please, JREF forum sages, tell me how I can find out without contacting the people who have the answer."



You really give a damn, brasil, don't you? Your country's trying to kill you and you won't even make a phone call.

Classic.
Classic.
Classic.

Did I see a thread started somewhere along of the lines of "negative attitude towards gravy?" (reading it would have been an exercise in redundancy). I can see why now: You're really not a nice person. Do you get a free pass on here that allows you to make "personal attacks" without your snide posts getting moved to "post purgatory" as some of mine were?

I'll tell you why I'm hesitant to call up Mike Pecoraro: it's out of RESPECT. I bet he's gotten quite a large number of calls from all manner of nutcases on all 3 sides of the argument (the rational one, the insane one, and the insaner one). I really would have to think carefully before bothering the man. I heard that Louie "there were bombs going off everywhere" Cacchioli finally got sick of people contacting him and wanted nothing to do with it anymore. I'm not interested in your snide, "smartass" psychological analysis of why I might not want to call Mike Pecoraro. Why don't you call him and tape it if you're so shameless? After all, it's you who has put your face and name out there and made 9-11 "debunking" into a full-time job. You're practically a member of the press now. I think you should call him.

My country isn't trying to kill me. They just realize that collateral damage is part of any war, and so far I haven't been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hell, I wasn't far from the WTC when it all went down. I saw it with my own eyes. I think it was pretty kind of someone to start the attack before 9 a.m. when hardly anyone was there. Only 2,800 killed when it could have been what, 50,000? 60,000? They were still on their way to work. How convenient. The most complex terrorist act in the history of the world, executed by a shockingly low number of operatives, with logistics, engineering and demolition skills so advanced they knew they could bypass the most advanced air defenses on earth, and knock down 2-3 steel-framed buildings without explosives even though that type of collapse had never happened before and the buildings were designed to sustain jetliner hits. How could they leave out that all-important detail of killing as many Americans as possible?!?!?

Let's face it, if I was a Muslim fanatic waging Jihad, and wanted to "kill as many Americans as possible," which is what we are told they want to do by Bush, I would have flown those planes into those buildings at 11 a.m.. The buildings would have been at capacity. Everyone in full swing at their desks. How kind of these bloodthirsty Arab dogs to hit the buildings when hardly anyone had shown up, just in time to make it an all-day news event. Amazing, how nice they were. Almost as if they were more interested in leaving a permanent emotional scar on the American psyche, which people like Giuliani could invoke to get those emotions fired up during his campaign speeches. "Global war on terror, the war on terrorism, the terrorists, the war on terror...." - how many times did he repeat the phrase in that cleverly edited video from the RNC convention?

How is it that the Pentagon was hit in the one, or one of the areas that was under renovation and barely occupied? No high-value targets like Rumsfeld killed, although they were there, barely protected by our incompetent air force. Hardly any casualties compared to what it could have been. Awful nice of those terrorists not to case out the Pentagon and figure out which side of the building Rumsfeld walks into in the morning, because that's what I would've done.

This is my city that was attacked, where I always dreamed of living from a young age. In 2004, a Zogby poll showed that 49% of respondent in my city "Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act" Mark, I "give more of a damn" than you, I can promise you that.

(Don't I just shine when I come home tipsy from partying all night and hit the JREF forums? I've got so many spare neurons to burn and it feels fantastic.)​

 

[brasil]

P.S. - If I was a bloodthirsty Arab terrorist who really wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, I would've crashed the second plane into the Indian Point nuclear power station and pulled a "Chernobyl" on the 5 boroughs. Ten thousand years before we could come back here, and maybe hundreds of thousands dead of radiation exposure. WTC 1 would've still taken out WTC 7, so that's still two buildings right there. Those Arabs showed amazing mercy and restraint on us. A lot more mercy than the U.S. showed in Iraq. Maybe they don't really hate us that much, but just want to teach us a lesson because they think we might still come round to accepting Allah into our hearts. But what does any of this have to do with evidence, facts, equations....

 

[tomwaits]

Awful nice of those terrorists not to case out the Pentagon and figure out which side of the building Rumsfeld walks into in the morning, because that's what I would've done.

Dude, wtf? Are you serious? This is rediculous. Think about what you are saying.

 

[stateofgrace]

Try to learn something about this event before you post. It was NOT just Americans that were killed in this dreadful terrorist attack. Citizens from over 70 countries perished in this cold blooded mass murder.

They did not attack the US air defence system; they attacked civilians on civilian aircraft, and slammed them into land mark buildings.

Maybe you should pop off to bed and sober up before posting any further.

 

[stateofgrace]

P.S. - If I was a bloodthirsty Arab terrorist who really wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, I would've crashed the second plane into the Indian Point nuclear power station and pulled a "Chernobyl" on the 5 boroughs. Ten thousand years before we could come back here, and maybe hundreds of thousands dead of radiation exposure. WTC 1 would've still taken out WTC 7, so that's still two buildings right there. Those Arabs showed amazing mercy and restraint on us. A lot more mercy than the U.S. showed in Iraq. Maybe they don't really hate us that much, but just want to teach us a lesson because they think we might still come round to accepting Allah into our hearts. But what does any of this have to do with evidence, facts, equations....

Do you mean facts like this?

Two dozen suspected members of a Spanish al-Qaeda cell who are accused of aiding preparations for the 9/11 attacks appeared in court today in Europe's biggest anti-terror trial.
The 24 men are mostly Syrians and Moroccans who have lived in Spain for many years. They include Imad Yarkas, 42, a Syrian-born Spaniard who is alleged to have supervised a cell that provided logistical support for the September 11 hijackers, including Mohammed Atta. Two other suspects also are accused specifically of helping plan the attack.

A Moroccan man convicted in Germany as an accessory to the attacks on the United States in September 2001 has been sentenced to 15 years in jail.
The court in Hamburg handed the maximum sentence against Mounir al-Motassadek

A Syrian man accused of heading a Spanish al-Qaeda cell and helping to organise the 9/11 attacks has been jailed for 27 years in Madrid.
Imad Yarkas was found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder in connection with the 2001 terror attacks

:

MADRID, Spain (AP) - Spain's leading investigating judge issued the first known indictment against Osama bin Laden in the Sept. 11 attacks yesterday, accusing al-Qaida of using the country as a base to plot the devastating strikes on New York and Washington.
Investigative magistrate Baltasar Garzon indicted 35 people for terrorist activities connected to bin Laden's al-Qaida network. In a nearly 700-page document, Garzon wrote that Spain served "as a place or base for resting, preparation, indoctrinating, support and financing" of al-Qaida.
The indictment charged bin Laden and nine others with membership in a terrorist organization and "as many crimes of terrorist murder ... as there were dead and injured" in the deadly Sept. 11 attacks.

http://media.www.michigandaily.com/m...-1418654.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6242867.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4281808.stm

 

[brasil]

Why don't both of you just keep missing the point. You bet I would've cased out the Pentagon as just one way of determining where the big guys' offices are. It's not ridiculous, it's called reconnaissance. I know it wasn't only Americans killed. I know what happened that day - that they bypassed the air defence system. Don't put words in my mouth.

I threw in the part about being "tipsy" just to see who would be the first to ignore the whole premise of my post and just focus on that. Congratulations, stateofgrace! Do I sound tipsy right now?

 

[stateofgrace]

Why don't both of you just keep missing the point. You bet I would've cased out the Pentagon as just one way of determining where the big guys' offices are. It's not ridiculous, it's called reconnaissance. I know it wasn't only Americans killed. I know what happened that day - that they bypassed the air defence system. Don't put words in my mouth.

I threw in the part about being "tipsy" just to see who would be the first to ignore the whole premise of my post and just focus on that. Congratulations, stateofgrace! Do I sound tipsy right now?

And what premise is that? The one where you drop all pretence at being serious and simply spew ct rubbish onto the forum?

No Brazil I did not miss your premise at all and personally I could care less what you would have done, I care what you can prove, and to date you have proved nothing. To date you have presented a premise that “bloodthirsty Arabs" could not possibly have carried out this attack because in your opinion the causalities were not high enough. This you have lamely tried to back by the fact that the attacks took place in the morning and one of the planes hit an area of the Pentagon that was being renovated. you have then gone on to speculate that the same people who were so concerned about keeping the deaths to a minimum in the Sept 11th attacks launched an all out war to kill lots of other people. You have further gone on to call the US air force incompetent, called the terrorists merciful and said there was hardly any causalities at all.

Did I miss something from your premise or was there any further rubbish you would like to add?

 

[332nd]

P.S. - If I was a bloodthirsty Arab terrorist who really wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, I would've crashed the second plane into the Indian Point nuclear power station and pulled a "Chernobyl" on the 5 boroughs. Ten thousand years before we could come back here, and maybe hundreds of thousands dead of radiation exposure. WTC 1 would've still taken out WTC 7, so that's still two buildings right there. Those Arabs showed amazing mercy and restraint on us. A lot more mercy than the U.S. showed in Iraq. Maybe they don't really hate us that much, but just want to teach us a lesson because they think we might still come round to accepting Allah into our hearts. But what does any of this have to do with evidence, facts, equations....

You really don't understand terrorism do you? It's not about how many/much you kill/destroy, it's about who/what you kill/destroy.

 

[chillzero]

thewholesoul:
Quote function - down there on the bottom right of each post.

Here's some helpful info:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2701915

 

[thewholesoul]

hey totovader

before responding in full i would really appreciate a quick confirmation - am i correct to infer from this statment

"he was assuming something fell in the loading dock, because at the time it was the only thing that made sense to him. Without the knowledge of a plane impact, the only other thing that could cause that much damage would be "something falling in the loading dock". That's not what actually happened, it was just Morelli making an educated guess at the time."

that the first event morellini heard and felt was the airoplane impact? a yes or no would be fantastic.

 

[Totovader]

hey totovader

before responding in full i would really appreciate a quick confirmation - am i correct to infer from this statment

"he was assuming something fell in the loading dock, because at the time it was the only thing that made sense to him. Without the knowledge of a plane impact, the only other thing that could cause that much damage would be "something falling in the loading dock". That's not what actually happened, it was just Morelli making an educated guess at the time."

that the first event morellini heard and felt was the airoplane impact? a yes or no would be fantastic.

See my previous comments- it's irrelevant as to which event he's describing (assuming his recall is perfect, by the way). You continue to dodge this point and instead want to drill down into the specifics of witness' ability to recall- something that is imperfect. I will withhold my answer until you address this.

 

[thewholesoul]

although i would prefer to stick to the known testimony i would not object if you wanted to ring the man. obviously there is no way i can guarantee the actual content of the conversation so i trust you are a man of your word and would report the truth even if that happens to contradict your own position.

perhaps instead of asking him to restate the entire event that happened that morning it would be better just to ask him if he still stands by his known statements made in the news interview?

but yea go ahead, the truth may not be worth 5 bucks of my money but it is certainly worth 5 bucks of someone-elses. why dont you ring felipe David...his testimony is far more damning of the official stroy?

 

[Lurker]

One thing most people in these forums do not accept, is that it's not always either/or. If I think explosives might have been in the basement, I am not automatically saying burning jet fuel didn't make it down there as well. Has anyone considered that it could be BOTH.

It is possible that both bombs and jet fuel were in the basement. We have pretty good evidence that a fireball existed down there so the jet fuel has some corroborating evidence behind it. I don't really see any evidence of bombs but the lack of evidence does not rule out the possibility.

Let's assume there were bombs down there. It is my understanding, and correct me if I am wrong, that the blast in the basement occurred soon after the plane hit. Let's assume it was a demolitions blast from explosives. Aren't truthers arguing that explosives brought down the WTC in a sort of controlled demolition? If so, why would bombs intended to take down (or pull if you'd rather) the WTC go off an hour or so before the collapse? Sorry, I don't know any demolitions that use bombs an hour ahead of the scheduled demolition.

Am I wrong on something here?

 

[Totovader]

although i would prefer to stick to the known testimony i would not object if you wanted to ring the man. obviously there is no way i can guarantee the actual content of the conversation so i trust you are a man of your word and would report the truth even if that happens to contradict your own position.

perhaps instead of asking him to restate the entire event that happened that morning it would be better just to ask him if he still stands by his known statements made in the news interview?

but yea go ahead, the truth may not be worth 5 bucks of my money but it is certainly worth 5 bucks of someone-elses. why dont you ring felipe David...his testimony is far more damning of the official stroy?

You're willing to assert that Gravy or LashL (who would be a woman of her word, I guess) would be telling the truth- but you're implying that Morelli may not be telling the truth, even though his account is published?

That doesn't really make any sense- and it sort of violates the first rule of being a conspiracist. We're shills, remember?

 

[Lurker]

Are you going to explain how a fireball originating almost 1000 ft. above the basement could have caused the "scope of damage seen?"

Why do you continue asserting that the fireball originated 1000' above the basement when we are not promulgating that scenario? We have already proposed that jet fuel went down the shaft and ignited below. The fireball did not travel all the way down the shaft.

I'm off to go party NYC-style.

My condolences.

Lurker

 

[GStan]

P.S. - If I was a bloodthirsty Arab terrorist who really wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, I would've crashed the second plane into the Indian Point nuclear power station and pulled a "Chernobyl" on the 5 boroughs. Ten thousand years before we could come back here, and maybe hundreds of thousands dead of radiation exposure. WTC 1 would've still taken out WTC 7, so that's still two buildings right there. Those Arabs showed amazing mercy and restraint on us. A lot more mercy than the U.S. showed in Iraq. Maybe they don't really hate us that much, but just want to teach us a lesson because they think we might still come round to accepting Allah into our hearts. But what does any of this have to do with evidence, facts, equations....

My bolding. America should have been so lucky as to have been the victim of such a stupid "bloodthirsty Arab terrorist" who would crash an airplane into Indian Point. This has been covered in at least one other thread here. Because of the design and construction (possibly as a protection from such stupidity), the chance that an airliner crash, even a deliberate one, could result in the damage and aftermath you have described is roughly 0.00%.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Maybe they don't really hate us that much, but just want to teach us a lesson because they think we might still come round to accepting Allah into our hearts.

That is, perhaps, the most insightful comment I've seen on 9-11 from someone who appears to me to be more inclined towards the conspiracist world view - I hope it wasn't as sarcastic as it looks. Start thinking about the 9-11 attacks, not in the sense of wanting to kill Americans out of blind unreasoning hatred, but in the sense of wanting to extend the power and influence of Islam, and maybe you'll start to understand them better. These attacks weren't against people, they were against symbols. Terrorists want to get our attention, and 3,000 deaths will do that just as well as 30,000.

Dave

 

[GStan]

My bolding. America should have been so lucky as to have been the victim of such a stupid "bloodthirsty Arab terrorist" who would crash an airplane into Indian Point. This has been covered in at least one other thread here. Because of the design and construction (possibly as a protection from such stupidity), the chance that an airliner crash, even a deliberate one, could result in the damage and aftermath you have described is roughly 0.00%.

This is a relatively short thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101068

You may want to read it before finalizing your plans for Jihad.

 

[Norseman]

After reading all the postings in this thread i have heard two explanations why he fell over.

No.1 R.Mackey says “And Morelli was first pushed over by compressed air pushed out of elevator shaft 6/7 or 50 (or both) due to falling elevator cars”

A slight correction thewholesoul, it was me and not R.Mackey who proposed that Morellini was pushed over by pressured air from the elevator shafts:

And Morelli was first pushed over by compressed air pushed out of elevator shaft 6/7 or 50 (or both) due to falling elevator cars. Then he experienced the over pressure from the jet fuel deflagration while he was in the bathroom.

No offense taken, since R.Mackey is one of the top technical contributors on this forum, and I am far below his level.

I tend to beleive that whatever happened in the loading dock caused him to fall not what happened 90 floors above him.

There is no reason think that anything happened in the loading dock. The loading dock was on B-1. And Rodriguez and company evacuated through the loading dock not mentioning anything special. Neither have Rodgriguez, who was on B-1, in his different stories claimed that sounds came from the loading dock as far as I know. On the contrary in his later stories he claims that the load boom came from below.

The problem i have with mackey’s explanation is: could a falling elevator produce enough compressed air to push him to the floor? And account for something to fall (morellini) “over in the loading dock, something very heavy”. I am not sure but i’m assuming there were closed doors infront of the elevator shaft 6/7 and 50. these would have to be blown out if morellini was himself to be blown. If this had happened i would assume he would have mentioned it as the reason he fell to the ground given that he was walking beside the freight elevator.

Yes, falling elevators can blow out doors. As you will see in this quote from the 1945 airplane crash in Empire State Building:

The plane penetrated the #6 and #7 car hatch walls, cutting the cable on the #6 car that was on its way down. Our selector in the motor room indicated the cables were cut when the car was at about the 38th floor.

All the governor and safety cables were sheared, so the car went into free fall. Fortunately for the female operator, the safety cable was severed; if not, the governor in the motor room would have applied the safety device under the cable. The car would then have stopped at the 34th and 35th floor in a blind hatch (blind hatch means no doors from the 40th to the main floor express cars) -- with marble and brick walls to break through to find where the car was located. When anything like that would happen, a mechanic can take the people off to the car next to his. Doors exist between the cars for that purpose, but the #7 car was hanging in the cables and burning on the 80th floor. The #6 car was afire -- it, too, stuck up there. The girl operator might have died from smoke suffocation.

A few seconds later, the car was in the basement. Fortunately, a basement door was in the #6 car shaft. The car doors were completely ripped out. No doubt, the air pressure -- caused by the car coming down -- blasted open the door in the pit. The operator stood in the corner, where the car switch was located. The rest of the car was filled with steel, bricks and plane parts. It surprised me that she was not more badly hurt.

Again, this was a story from the 1945 airplane crash in the Empire State Building. The crash could even have been worse in the WTC case.