Intelligent Evolution?

It seems the time has arrived for some idiot to sum it all up in a simplistic and misleading way.

I'll be that idiot!

You can stop blaming Zerox. Photocopiers were not created. They evolved.
Creation is a myth. All things evolve.

It's true! And have you ever seen anything like this? :lol2:

[I think I did see something like it in a Dilbert cartoon.]
 
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I think you have a very inflated perception of what happens, fundamentally, during a design development process compared to trial and error!


I have seven year old twin boys. About six months ago they came to me and asked if they could have an increase to their allowance (spending money). I told them ‘no’, but suggested a way that they could maybe make a little extra. I offered to buy each of them an Easy Bake Oven, and suggested that they could make tasty treats and sell them to their mates. I explained that if they made a modest profit on each snack they sold they could then buy higher-quality ingedients and make even better things to eat. This appealed to them, so I bought two Easy Bake Ovens and left them to it in their respective playrooms.

After a few days Ollie came to me with a handful of loose change and explained that it was the proceeds from his food sales. He asked if I could buy some more recipe ingredients for him with it. He even handed to me a list of what recipe ingredients he wanted! So, I went ahead and bought them for him. A few days later a similar thing happened, but he had even more cash this time, and an even longer list of required ingredients. This pattern continued, and it seemed that Ollie was building himself a little gourmet empire. Meantime, Stan was nowhere to be seen.

This continued for about six months, after which I decided to sit the boys down and find out how they’d been doing. Ollie proceeded to explain that he’d started by following the cook book and made his first basic dessert. It was a simple cupcake. He explained that his mates at school had been impressed and one of them had bought it from him. He’d come home and made more cupcakes for his mates, who had willingly handed over their cash. Ollie explained that after a while he’d decided to have a go at the next, slightly more complex recipe in the cook book. This recipe expanded on the dessert idea by adding a first course to the meal. He’d taken a full tray of meals to school to discover that they were even more popular than just dessert. His mates obviously found an entree with dessert to be more satisfying than just a simple cupcake, and, indeed, more nutritious than buying lollies instead! Ollie stopped making just desserts and concentrated on the entrees and appetizers, too. Nobody was interested in a simple cupcake any longer. He jokingly explained to us how he’d considered the simple cupcake to have gone ‘extinct’, obviously drawing an analogy to the dinosaurs he was then learning about. This pattern had continued and he was now designing three course meals, such as pan seared foie gras with a potato shallot pancake in a cider reduction followed by grilled pork loin with mango pecan chutney accompanied by a mesclun salad with gorgonzola and pears, finishing with a chocolate pistachio truffle beignet.

Meanwhile, whilst Ollie was explaining all of this, Stan was looking increasingly puzzled. I asked him what was wrong. He explained that there hadn’t even been a cook book included with his Easy Bake Oven. He hadn’t even known he should have had one. So I asked him how he’d first gone about making something to eat. Sam explained how he hadn't felt well that day, had drunk quite a bit of water and, then, vomited onto his shoes, and that he’d taken the shoes to school to try to sell them. Understandably everyone thought that was pretty stupid. Then Stan explained how later, purely by chance, he’d happened to throw up into an aluminum bowl and set it on the bottom shelf of the refrigerator. In the process he'd knocked over an open can of cherry pie filling, some of which ended up spilling into the bowl Stan had set there. He’d taken this aluminum bowl to school and one of his classmates (a coprophagist with a sweet tooth) had shown great interest, so much so that he bought the entire bowl from Stan. Stan then proceeded to arrange simple fare through hurling minestrone, selling that to his erstwhile geophagous mates. Obviously, his mates saw a benefit in what he was creating and elected to spend their money on "salad dressing" over lollies and football cards. Stan then went on to explain that after a while he’d decided to experiment a little by eating scented laundry detergent before vomiting. Unfortunately, this ambergris proved to be less popular, as the extra foam and suds just got in the way and made the "balsamic vinegar" that much more difficult to dribble over their crème caramel.

Stan jokingly commented that most of his "recipes" had gone extinct almost immediately. I thought it was good that he could still see a funny side to all of this. However, Stan explained that after a few weeks he had, again by chance, happened to develop renal failure and purged an ounce of colloidal silver. When he’d taken that to school all the boys suddenly showed renewed interest, just as they had with Ollie’s Roquefort blue cheese in phyllo with Chardonnay reduction.

The more Stan explained the pattern of his growth the more it became apparent that it had followed essentially the same as Ollie’s, even if at a somewhat different rate of development. Ollie had followed the cook book, but Stan had "driven the bus". It also turned out that Stan’s random diet of dirt and clay had, in fact, inspired the design of a polyethylene waste trap for the U-bend of a sink that will be appearing in next month's Popular Mechanics. Ollie found it all most interesting, as it gave him ideas for some antacids, incorporating some of the discoveries that Sam had made purely by chance.

So, we concluded the discussion with both Stan and Ollie realizing that they were, in fact, both developing essentially the same culinary art. The only difference was that Stan, because of the absence of intent and forethought, was simply making random changes to the bacterial synthesis of nutrients, particularly B group vitamins and vitamin K in the colon and, therefore, taking far longer to vomit live frogs than Ollie. Needless to say, Ollie has now relinquished his Easy Bake Oven to Stan; Ollie has already progressed beyond it and has no further need for it.


What this story clearly demonstrates is:

1. Intent and forethought are not necessary for seemingly intelligent human design to develop. Mamma mia, that's a spicy meatball!

2. Natural selection and artificial selection are closely comparable. The ability of any particular ‘species/design’ to thrive is determined by its 'predisposition' to be preferentially selected over the competition, which is driven by how well equipped it is to perform in any particular environment given its particular characteristics and features. No intentional and thoughtful external agent is necessary; the environment, whatever that may cough up, is the agent in both cases.

3. Self-replication has no greater inherent qualities than simple copying. Whether such replication is is discharged naturally or artificially doesn't matter. What does matter is whether the environment is such that survival is able to blow grits over extinction thereby enabling replication (copying) simply to occur.
 
The point you continually and completely miss is that if there are big enough differences (e.g., soccer's being played on turf or grass vs. hockey's being played on ice, soccer's being played with a ball vs. hockey's being played with pucks, etc.) the analogy doesn't work anymore. That is what we are trying to get across the differences between biological evolution and technological development make an analogy between the two hopelessly confusing, especially when you are trying to explain the difference between the process of selection in biological evolution and the process of selection in technological development, as you need to combat the idea of a Intelligent Designer. [emphasis added]

You've not been paying attention for the last couple hundred posts now have you mijo! :rolleyes:
 
You've not been paying attention for the last couple hundred posts now have you mijo! :rolleyes:

Maybe he has... but he cannot compute between his bursts of running around posting on various threads that "evolution is random" (if he repeats it enough, he might be able to convince himself.).

When he says it's "hopelessly confusing"... he's really saying it's hopelessly confusing to him. Clearly it's hopelessly confusing to 3 or 4 people... and these are people who don't seem to really understand natural selection and all seem to imagine themselves having expertise that no one else sees.

Moreover, they are people who have never ceded a point on this forum. And I bet they never will. They must always "win" the game in their heads.
(There are none so confusing as the hopelessly confused.)
 
You've not been paying attention for the last couple hundred posts now have you mijo! :rolleyes:

Actually, I have been paying attention and you still have not addressed my fundamental concern: you are describing biological evolution in exactly the same way that at least some intelligent design proponents describe intelligent design. You can rage all you want about how intelligence doesn't "really" exist, but once you deny that it does exist, you have lost most people who are trying to understand your analogy. This doesn't make the existence the phenomenon of intelligence right, but it does seriously call into question the pedagogical value of the analogy.
 
Speaker #1: "You know, soccer is kinda like hockey in that-"
Speaker #2: "Of COURSE NOT! They don't use sticks in soccer!"

Yes.

That's exactly what it's like. (except for the parts that are different :) )

(It's too bad they suck at analogies--they can't get the humor or a clue.)

Articulett, haven't you been arguing that aircraft evolved?

So a better representation would would be:

Speaker #1: "You know, soccer is kinda like essentially the same as hockey in that-"
Speaker #2: "Of COURSE NOT! They don't use sticks in soccer!"

In fact the analogy is closer to saying:
"Soccer is essentially the same as snooker, because they both use balls; the differences are unimportant."
 
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NO you frikkin idiots - the argument is that if you replace super-skilled mega-intelligent football players with idiotic ones there is NOT A SINGLE PLAY that one can make by intelligence that the other cannot make by dumbassery.

(And, furthermore that intelligence, if it is not to be turtles all the way down, must be based on 'idiotic' fundamentals).

Therefore to observe a football play and say, "oh, those players are super mega-intelligent because of that fantastic play," is simply erroneous reasoning.

You can't argue that it is possible to reason from a "design" to a "designer" in all cases based on the "design" of an object and remain consistently staunch against the idea of an "intelligent designer" in biology because that is the exact same reasoning process your opponents use! They just choose a different arbitrary stopping point to you.

In short you cannot look at a 747 and say, "yup, only a human could design that," then look at a albatross and say, "yup, only millions of years of genetic change could design that," and remain consistent against someone who argues that the miracle of flight required the miracle of intelligence in both cases.

This is because neither of you have paused to give one seconds thought as to what intelligence actually is, and yet you all act as if you know precisely how to identify when it is inaction or not based on a completely informal assumption that you have it!
 
Actually, I have been paying attention and you still have not addressed my fundamental concern: you are describing biological evolution in exactly the same way that at least some intelligent design proponents describe intelligent design. You can rage all you want about how intelligence doesn't "really" exist, but once you deny that it does exist, you have lost most people who are trying to understand your analogy. This doesn't make the existence the phenomenon of intelligence right, but it does seriously call into question the pedagogical value of the analogy.

OK, so please summarize for us how you see selection in nature occuring compared to selection in the AA, highlighting the fundamental differences.
 
The point you continually and completely miss is that if there are big enough differences (e.g., soccer's being played on turf or grass vs. hockey's being played on ice, soccer's being played with a ball vs. hockey's being played with pucks, etc.) the analogy doesn't work anymore.

Mijo, it ALL depens on what the analogy is supposed to highlight. In the Soccer-Hockey analogy, for example, if all I'm trying to convey is that Soccer is kinda like Hockey in the sense that opposing teams are trying to shoot a roundish thing into a rectangular net to score points and win, then the analogy is good, no matter how many other things might differ.
 
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OK, so please summarize for us how you see selection in nature occuring compared to selection in the AA, highlighting the fundamental differences.

I don't recall mijo arguing against the specific example of AA. I know I didn't.

I did note you left our conversation, which I interpret as you declining to try and move from the AA back to the generalization that I consider erroneous.
 
Mijo, it ALL depens on what the analogy is supposed to highlight. In the Soccer-Hockey analogy, for example, if all I'm trying to convey is that Soccer is kinda like Hockey in the sense that opposing teams are trying to shoot a roundish thing into a rectangular net to score points and win, then the analogy is good, no matter how many other things might differ.

But how can you ignore those sticks? You are playing right into your opponents hands if you ignore the sticks! Soccer doesn't have sticks! You can rage all you want about how sticks are irrelevant, but once you deny sticks, you have lost most people who are trying to understand your analogy. This doesn't make the existence the phenomenon of sticks right, but it does seriously call into question the pedagogical value of the analogy. Hockey sticks require intelligence and design. Soccer and Hockey are fundamentally different!!

:)

I am learning to speak mijo mumbo jumbo. :)
How'd I do? Did I make your head feel like exploding?
 
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Right up until "Hockey sticks require intelligence and design" you were as close to right as you've been in the last 30+ pages.

Do carry on.
 
I don't recall mijo arguing against the specific example of AA. I know I didn't.

Does he accept the AA?

I did note you left our conversation, which I interpret as you declining to try and move from the AA back to the generalization that I consider erroneous.

If you go around interpreting people's silence per se then I can see why you might reach erroneous conclusions. Yes, I've not given this thread quite the same attention as before. Perhaps you'd like to pick up where we left off - I did want to pursue our debate, you'll recall. Now, where were we?
 
Does he accept the AA?

I don't know. For most definitions of 'accept,' he probably should

If you go around interpreting people's silence per se then I can see why you might reach erroneous conclusions. Yes, I've not given this thread quite the same attention as before. Perhaps you'd like to pick up where we left off - I did want to pursue our debate, you'll recall. Now, where were we?
Certainly, I believe my last substantial post was #1572
 
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Certainly, I believe my last substantial post was #1572

OK:
No, it's not the selection pressure I was cautioning against, it's the 'god' in the 'cosmic machine'. I'm saying that 'busy robot goes to market' accomplishes your goals of demonstration so long as the questions of who designed the robot, why is the robot's programming the way it is, etc are disallowed.

The guy in your video had an easy out on this because he was attempting to prove evolution in a vacuum. This analogy is about disproving intelligent design, so we have to disallow such questions via fiat.

Are you saying they need to be 'disallowed' in the sense that they would flaw the analogy if they weren't, and, as such, it's not a fair analogy because it's too far 'off beam'? If so, I don't consider that biological reproductive systems, so far as their ability to replicate and introduce mutations, are any different from the automaton in the AA. We're not here to consider how life (or the auotomaton) arose in the first place. Accepting that they do exist we're taking the analogy forward from that point. Don't forget that after we've taken the AA as far as we can in terms of drawing conclusions I will be seeking to replace the automaton with Sam. The only reason we've introduced the automaton is to remove any possible suggestion that it's an intelligent being. As soon as we agree that Sam was behaving exactly the same way as the automaton does we can bring Sam back on board. Thereafter, at the appropriate time, we can reconcile Sam's behaviour with Ollie's, to dispel the notion of 'design', and hence 'intelligence' in 'ID'!

I do not think this robs any credibility or explanatory power, I just want to be clear on the limits of the model in case we bang up against them.

Given what I've written above, what 'limits' do you now envisage?

I agree, excepting I think because intelligence must be assumed when talking about design there is no point in focusing on it. It's better to focus on design because design may be observable in some cases while intelligence is never distinct from the results of highly advanced design.

OK

I also thought we were using intent and forethought as aspects of design.

That's right, PROVIDED we agree here and now to remove the notion that things displaying complexity do not, by necessity, have to have been 'designed'. In other words, we have to divorce 'complexity' from 'intent and forethought' and entertain, at least for the start of the remainder of this discussion, that complexity can come about by chance. Clearly, if you can't agree to that then you are, by definition, a Creationist!

The weakness in your original analogy was the majority of members in your class of comparison that did not carry your message.

I believe this statement is essentially tautological. If you disagree with the analogy then you're forced to draw this conclusion. Once you accept the analogy this criticism dissolves.

By using a single specific example you have avoided my objection, but I don't think you can knock it down.

I think one example, when proven, can be shown to extend to all instances, except any blue sky innovations that just happened to succeed against all odds. I don't think there are many, if any, examples of blue sky species in nature!

Intent is as real as consciousness in the intangible material sense you provisionally agreed with at the end of your post. While I agree intent does not exist within your examples (subject to the discussion above), saying intent does not exist at all is either a failure to understand materialistic philosophy or an application of a another viewpoint that I will argue against as unrealistic and not useful.

You'll need to show to me where 'intent' occurs in the AA. I'm assuming you're alluding to the selection process, in which case we might need to describe the 'marketplace' (environment), possibly by way of example, in order to introduce some tangibility that we can both easily relate to.
 
NO you frikkin idiots - the argument is that if you replace super-skilled mega-intelligent football players with idiotic ones there is NOT A SINGLE PLAY that one can make by intelligence that the other cannot make by dumbassery.

(And, furthermore that intelligence, if it is not to be turtles all the way down, must be based on 'idiotic' fundamentals).

Therefore to observe a football play and say, "oh, those players are super mega-intelligent because of that fantastic play," is simply erroneous reasoning.

You can't argue that it is possible to reason from a "design" to a "designer" in all cases based on the "design" of an object and remain consistently staunch against the idea of an "intelligent designer" in biology because that is the exact same reasoning process your opponents use! They just choose a different arbitrary stopping point to you.

In short you cannot look at a 747 and say, "yup, only a human could design that," then look at a albatross and say, "yup, only millions of years of genetic change could design that," and remain consistent against someone who argues that the miracle of flight required the miracle of intelligence in both cases.


This is because neither of you have paused to give one seconds thought as to what intelligence actually is, and yet you all act as if you know precisely how to identify when it is inaction or not based on a completely informal assumption that you have it!

QFE

Correct ...to-the-point... and funny with a dash of irony.

(There is someone in cyberland who appreciates your understanding as well as your clue-giving efforts and the amusing way you fight the dumbassery of those who imagine themselves as having "intelligence").

I, for one, appreciate good analogies-- and I think your 747/albatross one is exquisite. You have captured exactly why they are incorrect and confused... but of course they'll ignore it completely. I think they ignore you, because everything you say just flies over their heads.
 
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You are overlooking an ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT of evolution jimbob. Where, in what you've described above, does 'selection' come into play? Selection is the process that weeds out inferior mutations and determines obsolescence when new, superior mutations arise. In other words, 'selection' establishes the parameters by which an organism (or a technological development) is 'tested' against the competition. That 'testing' can only occur AFTER the organism/device has come into being, and the mutations/developments are manifest. What constitutes 'passing' the test? In both cases it's REPRODUCTION.

Whilst conception is clearly a significant occurrence, it doesn't actually 'trigger' anything in the evolutionary process. The only way conception could be considered the alternative trigger to reproduction is if you're alluding to the fact that conception demonstrates that the previous generation survived long enough to effect conception. Is that what you mean? If so, then that would be equally valid, but in the AA (or Sam & Ollie analogy), the 'trigger' would simply shift from receipt of sales proceeds as an indicator of success to starting to assemble the next variant (conception). The two, as in nature, or inextricably linked, and as such, arise from the same root cause - survival of the fittest.

Are you able to clarify please?

I disagree; in an appropriate environment (unrealistically benign), an organism will begin the process of self replication at its inception. It will "run along the path", following its inherent behaviours and will eventually reproduce. The process begins at inception, but is usually interrupted. This "interruption" is the selection (or "culling".

With your system, the (arbitarily defined) trigger is what starts the system producing an imperfect copy. This is the receipt of sales information.

Natural-selection on self-replicating systems acts to interrupt the replication process, whilst your system can only work with an actual trigger to instigate the copying process.

This is because without self-replication, the selection of the "organism" would not affect the remotely-stored "copying instructions". Something else is needed.


NO you frikkin idiots - the argument is that if you replace super-skilled mega-intelligent football players with idiotic ones there is NOT A SINGLE PLAY that one can make by intelligence that the other cannot make by dumbassery.

(And, furthermore that intelligence, if it is not to be turtles all the way down, must be based on 'idiotic' fundamentals).

Therefore to observe a football play and say, "oh, those players are super mega-intelligent because of that fantastic play," is simply erroneous reasoning.

You can't argue that it is possible to reason from a "design" to a "designer" in all cases based on the "design" of an object and remain consistently staunch against the idea of an "intelligent designer" in biology because that is the exact same reasoning process your opponents use! They just choose a different arbitrary stopping point to you.

In short you cannot look at a 747 and say, "yup, only a human could design that," then look at a albatross and say, "yup, only millions of years of genetic change could design that," and remain consistent against someone who argues that the miracle of flight required the miracle of intelligence in both cases.

This is because neither of you have paused to give one seconds thought as to what intelligence actually is, and yet you all act as if you know precisely how to identify when it is inaction or not based on a completely informal assumption that you have it!

What is your point here?

That intelligence doesn't exist, becuse it arose from unintelligent, natural processes? That intelligence doesn't exist because free will is an illusion? Or that intelligence exists, but that evolution can achieve everything that intelligence can?

How long will it take for a screwdriver to evolve? Intelligence doesn't need self-replication.

How long for a photocopier to evolve without any intelligent input?

(Clue, they can't breed)

Why can't you look at evolved biological systems and say that they wouldn't have been designed like that by a "good" (competant and benign) designer?

Why can't you also look at technological systems and say that the signature of their design history is unlike that of an evolved system? For example, showing that design iterations tend to only fix known faults, design iterations often reuse design features from other systems, without having to evolve them.

What is wrong with pointing out that 747's can't reproduce whilst organisms do?

Looking at GMOs, one can say that particular sequences are used in different organisms, which you wouldn't have expected to occur independently within the lifetime of the universe. Not the functional parts of the sequence, but especially the non-functional parts of the sequence. Ofcourse lateral gene transfer could have achieved this, but from a jellyfish and into one generation of mice? I think it is strong evidence of interference in the genome of such a mouse.

If ID was correct, one might expect to see such signatures, but we don't, except for ones instigated by humans.
 
That intelligence doesn't exist, becuse it arose from unintelligent, natural processes? That intelligence doesn't exist because free will is an illusion? Or that intelligence exists, but that evolution can achieve everything that intelligence can?

That without even answering these questions first it is profoundly unhelpful to band about the term as if it really illuminates any differences here.

(Clue, they can't breed)

Clue: missing the point again.

Why can't you look at evolved biological systems and say that they wouldn't have been designed like that by a "good" (competant and benign) designer?

Uhh, because there are as many examples of what we would consider "good" design as "bad"? Because what "good" and "bad" design consists of is rather more dependant on the problem being solved than any esoteric ideas about the aesthetics of the design?

Why can't you also look at technological systems and say that the signature of their design history is unlike that of an evolved system?

Because that is not what I observe.

What is wrong with pointing out that 747's can't reproduce whilst organisms do?

Because it doesn't give us any insight into how it came to be. It's been 44 pages now - are you really still stuck on this?
 
When organisms reproduce they are merely copying the information that gives rise to organisms like themselves as they evolved to do because something about the information contained in them is "copy worthy"-- it is preferentially selected by the environment for copying.

When more airplanes are created it is because the information for making a certain airplane has a design that makes it "copy-worthy" in the environment-- it is preferentially selected by the environment for copying.

Organisms don't technically copy themselves. They copy information (directions) for making more organisms like themselves. Airplanes don't copy themselves either. They have a mechanism for getting the information (directions) for making more "organisms" like themselves copied. Information doesn't care how it's copied... the fact that it is copied is enough to allow that information the possibility of evolving. Human definitions of good, bad, design, will, intelligence, fitness, etc. are irrelevant to the information being copied... if it can get humans to copy it by making them think they are utilizing such concepts-- then it has a good "trick" for evolving... it becomes "copy worthy". It doesn't matter to the information why it gets copied just as DNA doesn't care why or how it gets copied...

Information can only evolve and code for organisms or products or "things" that evolve if there it is replicated...

Information that can get itself preferentially copied drives both systems. Point of Inquiry has an excellent podcast on this concept this week as does the brain science podcast for anyone who doesn't understand but actually wants to... or for anyone who would like to understand the concept further.

You don't need a "designer"... just an assembly code and an environment that selects for and against the the various products assembled by an evolving code.

http://www.pointofinquiry.org/
http://brainsciencepodcast.com/

It's a concept worth understanding for those smart enough to understand it. But clearly it's beyond the understanding of those who assume expertise on the subject that nobody else recognizes.

If you understand that groups of matter be it birds or copy machines appear to evolve when in fact it's the information that builds such things that is actually evolving... and ask yourself why and how this happens-- you may start to understand the profundity of the simple analogy and what it is Cyborg is saying.

I find it amazing that those who are so sure of their expertise have a complete and utter failure in understanding a very core notion regarding evolution. It's a notion that every expert in evolutionary biology or artificial intelligence readily gets. It is the reason the Selfish Gene is considered such an amazing tome. And it's information that is so much more useful in understanding the world than whatever it is the self appointed experts are trying to proffer.
 

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