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[Split]Moon hoaxes - split from: Mars Voyage too Soon?

...Jeez, this thread's getting easier by the minute - you're all tripping over not only each other but yourselves in your own little debunking 'space race' :rolleyes:
I'm glad you find this so easy. I find that answering claims from HBs (hoax believers) generally takes far more work than asking the questions. It's not that any of the claims from HBs which I have yet investigated have panned out; it's that it's simply far easier to spew unfounded accusations (and then modify and reissue them as they are debunked), ignore certain posts, pounce on strawmen, play semantic games, and in general simply stir the pot, than it is to issue a detailed factual response.

Not that I am accusing you of this, of course; I'm just speaking in general terms.

In any case, since you evidently have some free time, I'd appreciate your comments about my ALSEP discussions in post 85 and post 192.
You don't think that this prospect pales in comparison to actually putting men on the lunar surface?! :rolleyes:
Have you really thought - in detail - about it would take to successfully fake the visual record? Do you think the record can be considered independently of the other facets of the missions? I would be happy to chew the fat on this matter at length - as well as discuss my reservations with Groves enumerated in post 193 - but I'd rather get the ALSEP issues resolved first.
 
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I've been silently following this thread and now I'd like to ask a question of Mr Southwind:

In what way are the doubts you harbour reasonable?

One bloke with his "scientific" photo analysis stacked up against the work of thousands of Engineers, Scientists, Technicians and everyone else involved in Apollo over the years is a reasonable doubt to you?
 
Doesn't look like the same piece of dirt to me, but I understand what you're trying to say. A cursory perusal of Wikipedia, however, suggests that you don't really understand what you're trying to explain here. If the drop-off is an effect of the zero-phase angle then why does it occur in all directions, including from the object to the camera? Also, the fact that these two photos do absolutely nothing to demonstrate the effect of drop-off does puzzle me somewhat. :boggled:
The drop-off issue is a non starter. If you read the science report I linked to a few posts back you would have read where Armstrong had noted that the intereior surfaces of the craters had what was refered to as Glassy blebs or beads. The science report even has a close up photograph of the blebs. The "drop-off" effect is cause by the light reflecting off the glassy blebs. The effect is accentuated by the fact the changes in soil color and specularity due to the soils being disturbed by the Astronauts or the distribution of the blebs.
The false color image used in the video is a joke because the filter algorithym used by the image manipulation software (most likely Photoshop) keys on color differences not contrast.

Also the cast shadow angles do not support the local light source hypothesis either.




'Most obvious?! You're expecting people to believe that Armstrong's shoulder was sufficient to reflect sunlight to such an intensity that it caused a hot-spot on Aldrin's boot? Do you actually understand what a hot-spot is? What kind of reflective material are you suggesting Armstrong's spacesuit was actually made from? I suppose you're expecting people to believe that it was also Armstrong's shoulder that backlit the entire LM, including inside the exit bay, while Aldrin exited and descended the ladder! I'm sorry, I've got to genuinely echo Belz's sentiment directed at me from earlier - feel free to join reality at any time! :rolleyes:
Again you are ignoring facts and arguing from ignorance. The EVA suits were covered in white Beta cloth. Some reflectors used in photography are just screens of bright white material. Take a look at this photographer's supply web site: http://www.lastolite.com/originalreflectors.php

The video you posted clearly shows Armstrong standing in the sunlight when he took that picture.

Also I dabble alot in computer graphics. There are rendering software that accurately simulate the physics of light. Maxwell rendering software is on such program.: http://www.maxwellrender.com/

On of the algorythims that simulate the physics of light is called global illumination wich takes into consideration the light that is reflected off a surface and onto another surface.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_illumination

The light that is illuminating the scene in that picture is caused from the light being reflected off the lunar surface and diffusing into the shadowed area. You can tell that because the shadows on Aldrin's suit are on the top showing that the light source is coming from below.

All surfaces reflect light otherwise you would never see them at all.
The moon reflects enough light so that you can see relatively clearly on a cloudless full moon. Does that not make you think? If you can see things illuminated on Earth from the light reflecting from a fulll moon Geuss what you see from reflected light when you are on the surface.


Dr. Grove does not seem to know anything about simple basic photography or the nature of light. Either he is incredibly incompetent or his is willfully lieing in order to sell a book.
 
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Just so it doesn't get lost in the noise, I'm going to re-state how the man-on-the-moon photo shows that Armstrong was standing about 30 cm higher than Aldrin. Here is the photo:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5903HR.jpg

Groves and you claimed that Armstrong was standing 60 cm higher than Aldrin, but that's wrong.

The line of sight from a camera to the horizon is nearly perfectly horizontal. So you can judge the height of closer objects, relative to the camera, by seeing where they are relative to the horizon. Something in the foreground that's the same elevation as the horizon, is level with the camera.

In that picture, the horizon cuts across the image of Aldrin right about his eye level. Therefore his eyes were level with the camera when it took the picture. The official story is that Armstrong was wearing the camera on his chest, as in this picture:
http://www.panoramas.dk/moon/hasselblad.html
Notice that the camera lens (if he were not bent over) is at a level somewhat above the astronaut's nipple height. So if the official story is true, the camera on Armstrong's chest was level with Aldrin's eyes. That distance on a man is around 30 cm or less. And Armstrong was about an inch taller than Aldrin, so that is even less.

Now is there anything in that photo that suggests that the ground could not have sloped up by 25 to 30 cm between where the two were standing?

And why did Groves miss this obvious analysis? Maybe because he's an idiot who's looking for ways to bolster his preconceptions, or sell books?
 
What is my 'standard of proof' you ask. Satisfactory explanations of said anomalies would do the trick.

Beyond all reasonable doubt.

What makes your standard attainable? If we explained all your aforementioned anomalies, couldn't you just clutch at a few more...then more after that. "But what about..." is a familiar refrain in the MHB world.

Does your standard also apply to other historic events? The short answer for historians and most other folks I think, is a resounding "no". Explanations are not required for each and every cotton-pickin' anomaly and minor shortcoming in the historic record, in order for an event to be accepted as having occurred. Historians love to fill those gaps when they can, of course, but who has ever filled all of them? Apollo was arguably the most thoroughly documented event in history but it was far more massive in scope than any documentary effort could be.

Now, back to Dr. Groves. I was referencing evaluations on the Clavius about Dr. Groves' other analyses. But I have seen the subject at hand hashed out in other discussions. Clavius clearly demonstrates that Groves' other analyses and experiments are rife with errors, as is the book in which they appear. How many fundamental errors can a so-called expert make before you stop relying on his expertise? I mean, what is it about Dr. Groves' analysis of this particular photo that you find so convincing? You virtually brush aside the overwhelming totality of evidence in favor of the Moon landings but these three pages in this sad, sad little book seem to completely lock you up. No external corroboration. No agreement from other recognized experts using commonly accepted methods. Just that one source...and you call it conclusive. Puzzling.
 
I would also submit that 'satisfactory explanations of said anomalies' is impossible if nothing offered that supports the 'official story' is considered 'satisfactory'.

We've been there before with some 911 CTs; I'm sure you all remember One Who Shall Not Be Named who cavalierly hand waved away every bit of evidence that was contrary to his opinion as not 'sensible'. It appears he would accept evidence contrary as long as it was 'sensible'.

Fortunately for his world view, according to him he never encountered any. Reading this thread this attitude must be more common than I'd thought.
 
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Actually, Groves calculates the difference in the height of the lunar surface between Aldrin and the photographer by reference to the entire length of shadow cast by Aldrin's leg from the extremety of his left boot to the point coinciding with his left hip (referring to the photo, the latter is the point approximately where the shadow begins to deviate significantly, adjacent the pronounced boot print bottom left). Because of the low sun angle Aldrin's shadow can be seen to be clearly elongated. Given that Aldrin and the photographer were standing approximately 3.8m apart (calculated by Groves) I would estimate the 'un-measured' distance from the photographer to the nearest point of the shadow measured to be under 2m. Therefore, if the difference in height over the distance of shadow measured is only 10cm at the most, as calculated by Groves, then the remainder of the difference in height, namely 50cm approximately, must be accounted for over a distance of less than 2m, that's an average gradient of around 1:4,or 25%! I don't see any such gradients in any part of the photo, so we can only conclude, if the camera was indeed chest mounted, that the photographer was standing atop something. Maybe a 50cm-high rock (similar to all the others in the photo), as you do when you're taking photos!

If Aldrin and Armstrong were 3.8 meters apart, then Aldrin would have to be 227cm tall. Even allowing around an extra 15cm for boots and helmet, he's only about 195cm tall (note that his leaning forward also shortens him). A quick back of the envelope calculation based on his taking up 58% of the frame from top to bottom and the FOV of the camera being 53.5° from top to bottom, put the two at a distance of only around 3.2 metres.

Using the shadow for measurements is rather a strange thing to do since shadow length relies on knowing, the angle of the sun, the slope of the terrain (and how it changes), and in this case determining the effects of the convex reflector. Quite simply it is impossible to determine what the length of the shadow should be or is (though it seems to stretch slightly beyond Armstrong's position) since none of these factors is actually known and trying to do so is simply guesswork. You have no way of knowing what the rise in the terrain is between the photographer and the subject, and your above waffle doesn't prove anything except that you're taking wild stabs in the dark to justify your claim about it.

I commented on this earlier. He's hardly 'in a depression' - towards the lip of of it, if you ask me. But it doesn't matter, Groves takes account of the surface height difference.

That "hardly in a depression" is almost in the centre of a 10-15cm deep crater.

How does that put Armstrong 'above' Aldrin? Did Armstrong have a unique spacesuit that prevented the same thing happening to him?! In fact, the photographer is also leaning forward (or looking down), hence the position of the centre cross-hair over Aldrin's right ankle.

It doesn't put him "above" Aldrin, other then explaining why parts of the top of the suit that normally wouldn't be visible are actually visible. It also shortens Aldrin vertically.

Have you noticed that Aldrin's left leg outer is essentially straight, but the the shadow is curved? There's a clue!

Have you noticed that the ground the shadow lies on goes up immediately from Aldrin's position, then reaching the rim of the crater descends again before rising once more? Have you also noticed that the direction the shadow lies is not the direction to Armstrong? (Before you say that it is in the helmet, realise that the helmet is a convex reflector) Nothing the shadow does gives any conclusion as to Aldrin and Armstrong's respective heights. The only thing it tells us is that Aldrin is standing in a depression, something we already knew.

Still missing the point! This explanation relies on the assumption that the camera is chest mounted. Groves' analysis shows that it could not be.

No, Groves' analysis claims the camera would be higher than Aldrin's chest height, and then he extrapolates that to mean it was higher the Armstrong's chest height if they are on level ground. The fact they aren't nullifies his conclusion so he tries to fudge that the ground is uneven so as to keep his wanted conclusions.

Shown not to be the case!

Sorry I disagree. The change in the ground under Aldrin's shadow has zero to do with the lie of the ground between Aldrin and Armstrong since the shadow isn't on that section of ground.

Beyond all reasonable doubt.

Why do you expect such a higher level of evidence for Apollo being fact than you do for it being fiction? Can you prove that it was Hoaxed beyond all reasonable doubt? If not then how can you demand proof that high for it being real? Surely the better idea is to put the two theories together and see which has the most and best evidence to support its position.

Doesn't look like the same piece of dirt to me

Funnily enough that is sort of the point to the images, they look different depending on if you are looking up sun or down sun because in one you can see the shaded areas so it looks textured and darker while the other they are hidden from your view so it looks bright and untextured.

If the drop-off is an effect of the zero-phase angle then why does it occur in all directions, including from the object to the camera?

It doesn't occur in all direction, it only occurs in the up-sun direction. Look at the ground being reflected in Aldrin's visor. It is much brighter than the surface behind him and is evenly bright all the way to the horizon. The drop off is only in the up-sun direction where the shadows of the rocks and craters make the surface look darker and as you look further away you are seeing more shadow and less sunlit area.

Also, the fact that these two photos do absolutely nothing to demonstrate the effect of drop-off does puzzle me somewhat.

They demonstrate the zero-effect of the shadows being seen or not seen, the "drop-off" is merely that on a larger scale.

The cross-hairs are actually printed on the photo, or to be precise, have obscured any imagery from the photo, which allows them to 'record' on the photo. No amount of cropping or 'adding', therefore, will alter the position of the cross-hairs relative to the all-important image recorded.

Wow, that makes very little sense at all. Firstly the crosshairs are NOT printed onto the photo, they are created when the image is taken by the means of a reseau grid that sits directly on top of the film. This means that the fiducials are a fixed part of each image that is taken, the largest one being in the exact centre of the image. I have no idea what you are going on about the "position of the cross-hairs relative to the all-important image recorded," Aulis' claim is that since the large cross hair isn't in the centre of the photo that there is an issue with the image because the large crosshair is supposed to be in the very centre, and in theirs it isn't. This is because the image they use is cropped and the fiducial have been moved in respect to the borders of the image. The large cross hair has nothing to do with important information or anything else, it merely shows where the camera was pointed.

What kind of reflective material are you suggesting Armstrong's spacesuit was actually made from?

The outer cover was white beta cloth, a material that is 90% reflective of sunlight. Do you suggest this is not a strong enough light source?

I suppose you're expecting people to believe that it was also Armstrong's shoulder that backlit the entire LM, including inside the exit bay, while Aldrin exited and descended the ladder!

No, that was done by the light reflecting of the rather large reflector behind Armstrong. The lunar surface.
 
You mean to say that everything else will just look after itself?

"Hey, let's go scuba diving - we can take your car."
"Scuba diving! But I've never done it before."
"Not important. I've got the wet suits, you have the car to get us there, where's the problem?"
You have the car, the scuba gear, a huge base of technical support at your beck and call, and a decade of practice runs. (The Mercury and Gemini programs.)

Where's the problem?
 
I've been silently following this thread and now I'd like to ask a question of Mr Southwind:

In what way are the doubts you harbour reasonable?

One bloke with his "scientific" photo analysis stacked up against the work of thousands of Engineers, Scientists, Technicians and everyone else involved in Apollo over the years is a reasonable doubt to you?
"Thousands" is understating things by a huge margin, though. When you count all the people involved in Apollo, the programs leading up to Apollo (Explorer, Ranger, Surveyor, Mercury and Gemini), and programs that used Apollo systems (Skylab), and all the scientists who have used data from those programs in their research, the number is easily in the hundreds of thousands across dozens of countries.

Against that, Southwind has a photo that he thinks looks odd.
 
You have the car, the scuba gear, a huge base of technical support at your beck and call, and a decade of practice runs. (The Mercury and Gemini programs.)

Where's the problem?
Well let's not forget that the first scuba divers died before they even made into the water. NASA did make huge mistakes with the Apollo 1 program which is to be expected.
 
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Southwind:
I was looking forward to your answer, but you never answered me where I asked you:
"..... do you think you could have worked in the space program and been fooled to the extent that you believe that I was fooled? If you don't believe I was fooled, you must believe I am part of the conspiracy. Which is it: I was duped; I conspire; or is there a third option?"

I don't know if I am the only one posting here who actually worked for NASA Houston on:
Apollo 17
Apollo-Soyuz
Skylab
...and I worked on US critical communications systems through which ALSEP data passed through.

Please tell me what is the most plausible explanation for me? How do you explain ME?
 
not when you are already well below the grain resolution of the film :rolleyes:

For those that might not be understanding this point ...

(!)

... it's like me saying that I can measure the position of a golf ball to the nearest mm when all I have to work with is a 1m grid and one of the squares marked to tell that the ball is somewhere inside that square.

Not a very intuitive analogy. Here's a better one:

How much larger is a standard 29" basketball than a regulation golf ball measured by circumference? Let's say you hazard a guess at 5 times.

OK, so you proceed to measure the circumference of a golf ball to the nearest millionth of a mm, and you do so by using a standard school issue ruler to estimate visually it's diameter to the nearest mm, then apply the requsite formula with Pi stated to 7 decimal places. You then go on to conclude that having calculated its diameter so accurately it's 5.7067513 times smaller than the basketball.

OK, let's see what happens if we use 'reasonable numbers':

Let's say the golf ball is regulation size and actually measures 42.67mm. We measure it as 43mm with the school ruler (that seems realistic). We apply the requisite formula using Pi as programmed into a calculator and we get 135.08848mm circumference. But we only measured the diameter of the golf ball to the nearest mm, so let's round this number off to the nearest mm too - 135mm.

A standard 29" basket ball has diameter 736.6mm. Let's round that off to 737mm. 737/135 = 5.4592592. How do our two calculations compare? 5.7 and 5.5 times larger compared to an initial guess of 5. Gee, the degree of accuracy used in the calculation sure leads one to draw completely different conclusions, don't you agree?! :rolleyes:
 
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Most of the "fill" is coming from the bright ground you can see in his visor, after all if you can see it reflected in his visor then light from it must be hitting other parts of his suit as well.

Yes it is hard to determine how someone supposedly skilled in photographic analysis such as Groves, and also David Percy, managed to miss these rather obvious things. Perhaps it's because they have a book to sell?

You seem to be conveniently completely overlooking the effects of phase angle, as you yourself kindly introduced into the debate above, notwithstanding your erroneous belief that it governs light drop-off. Indeed, the two photos that you posted earlier serve to contradict entirely what you're now offering as the explanation here! Just take another look at the up-sun shot you posted and answer this: Why do we see dark shadows, and why are the undulations striking those shadows not 'backfilled' with light such that they don't appear black?!

It's very unlikely that the hotspot is caused by a visor reflection, the more likely cause is Armstrong's right shoulder which was in the sun at the time.

Good to see you're all on the same page here!

yes, it's funny how HPs (and subsequently HBs) continuously ignore the fact that the ground is a great big light reflector even though it's sitting there in every image. How do they think the light gets into the camera from the ground if it wasn't reflected? I can see how anyone who claims to be a photographer can honestly ignore that as a source of the reflected light that is acting as backfill.

Oops!

Which begs the question, are they doing it deliberately?

Double oops!!
 
It's very unlikely that the hotspot is caused by a visor reflection, the more likely cause is Armstrong's right shoulder which was in the sun at the time.

I thought it was a possibility because the gold visor seemed to be more of a specular source than the white beta cloth of the suit.

You 'thought it was a possibility'? Let's remind ourselves what you really 'thought':
That would mean that a possible source of the light causing the hotspot could have been (and most likely is) the reflection of the Sun shining off of Neil's helmet visor. [emphasis added]

That reads more like 'probability' than 'possibility' to me, possibly even close to 'certainty'?!

I learned about diffusion and dispursion while learning fiber optics.

Seems you've a ways to go! :rolleyes:

Funny how a physicist and a researcher in photoanalysis missed what a computer maintenance intructor can see.

Isn't it just! :D
 
You're after the prize for the biggest contradiction, aren't you! You say 'sure' to my question whether you consider ALSEP alone provides proof, THEN, in the same breath, so to speak, you switch to 'the totality of ... evidence' providing proof!
It does, if you ever bother to educate yourself about it. Then add in the rest of the evidence. Your continued inability to grasp the meaning of the straightforward and simple statements is perplexing. I'm hoping it's not deliberate but my suspicions are rising...

Can you not answer my question unambiguously? Jeez, this thread's getting easier by the minute - you're all tripping over not only each other but yourselves in your own little debunking 'space race'
See above. By the way, when you going to educate yourself about the utterly massive amount of evidence that's available that, so far, you seem to be woefully uninformed about?

You don't think that this prospect pales in comparison to actually putting men on the lunar surface?! :rolleyes:
Apollo 8 went around the moon. Apollo 10 had the lunar module descend within 50,000 feet of the lunar surface. So going from there to a landing is not such a gigantic step. Or do you doubt that the Apollo 8 and 10 missions were real? Yes or no, please.

You still haven't answered my question about your level of understanding in regards to photography. Can you explain why "the photos from the lunar surface must be faked because the stars aren't visible in them" argument is so fundamentally wrong?
 
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OK, now I have another question for Southwind:

Are you going to answer my earlier question? It's only a small question. It won't take you long.
 
It does, if you ever bother to educate yourself about it. Then add in the rest of the evidence. Your continued inability to grasp the meaning of the straightforward and simple statements is perplexing. I'm hoping it's not deliberate but my suspicions are rising...[emphasis added]

And here you go YET AGAIN! THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE! I will ask you again. Please answer with only one word, EITHER 'yes' or 'no': Do you consider that ALSEP alone, on its own, nothing else, PROOVES BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that man has walked on the Moon?

By the way, when you going to educate yourself about the utterly massive amount of evidence that's available that, so far, you seem to be woefully uninformed about?

As I've explained before, my concern is over the contradictory evidence, not the confirmatory evidence. It's a little like a court case. The maxim of 'innocent until proven guilty' inevitably presupposes that there is a preponderance of evidence in favour of the defendant. It's the prosecution's duty to present sufficient compelling contradictory evidence. If the defence can immediately show that the defendant could not possibly have done it (or, in the case of Apollo, did do it) then the prosecution's case immediately collapses. So far, we have a plethora of circumstantial evidence in Apollo's favour, and a relatively limited amount against. When that very limited amount has been satisfactorily discounted that's the point at which I'll become convinced. If the contradictory evidence is clearly flawed then that shouldn't take too much effort now, should it!

Apollo 8 went around the moon. Apollo 10 had the lunar module descend within 50,000 feet of the lunar surface. So going from there to a landing is not such a gigantic step. Or do you doubt that the Apollo 8 and 10 missions were real? Yes or no, please.

I haven't considered the Apollo 8 and 10 missions. They have no bearing on the contradictory evidence.

You still haven't answered my question about your level of understanding in regards to photography. Can you explain why "the photos from the lunar surface must be faked because the stars aren't visible in them" argument is so fundamentally wrong?

I do know a little about photography, actually. The explanation you're seeking from me is that the low intensity light enamating from stars is insufficient to expose the photograph to enable the stars show up in it. This seems like a very logical and plausible explanation to me. Would you agree?
 
OK, now I have another question for Southwind:

Are you going to answer my earlier question? It's only a small question. It won't take you long.

That would be this question:
I've been silently following this thread and now I'd like to ask a question of Mr Southwind:

In what way are the doubts you harbour reasonable?

One bloke with his "scientific" photo analysis stacked up against the work of thousands of Engineers, Scientists, Technicians and everyone else involved in Apollo over the years is a reasonable doubt to you?

You don't seem to quite understand. I'm not disputing for one second all of the great work and effort that went into the Apollo program, I'm simply skeptical about whether we actually went so far as to set foot on the Moon. There is a preponderance of evidence that indicates that we did, and there's a limited amount of evidence that suggests we might not have. But when you categorize the evidence into, say, still photographs, video, technology, etc., the preponderance diminishes drastically, and the categories where absolutely no contradictory evidence exists becomes very small in number.
 
Southwind:
I was looking forward to your answer, but you never answered me where I asked you:
"..... do you think you could have worked in the space program and been fooled to the extent that you believe that I was fooled?

I'm sorry VonNeumann, as you can see there's a lot of flack coming my way (as expected) and I'm trying to respond in an orderly fashion. Please continue to bear with me with any future responses; you're kind of in a queueing system!

Have you ever looked into the details behind the Enron debacle? It's amazing how easily it can be to 'fool' people, very intelligent people, when an organization puts its mind to it.

If you don't believe I was fooled, you must believe I am part of the conspiracy. Which is it: I was duped; I conspire; or is there a third option?"

I can't think of a third option off hand.

I don't know if I am the only one posting here who actually worked for NASA Houston on:
Apollo 17
Apollo-Soyuz
Skylab
...and I worked on US critical communications systems through which ALSEP data passed through.

Please tell me what is the most plausible explanation for me? How do you explain ME?

I guess conspiracies are best concealed when everything around them just seems like business as usual. I can't quite remember which film it was in which somebody remarked something along the lines of: "The best crimes ever committed are those where nobody even realizes they've been committed." I suppose much white-collar fraud, for example, might fall into that category.
 
...But when you categorize the evidence into, say, still photographs, video, technology, etc., the preponderance diminishes drastically, and the categories where absolutely no contradictory evidence exists becomes very small in number.

Let's take the video stuff then.
To me that's the prime candidate for proof.
The sheer length of the footage for each "scene" is phenomenal, all done, you would have us believe, with 1960s special effects? The distances travelled in some of the shots precludes a soundstage, so where was this shot?
 

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