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[Split]Moon hoaxes - split from: Mars Voyage too Soon?

Only one of which, allegedly, was present on the Moon!
Yeah but it shows that image analysis can be just plain wrong. It's not that hard of a concept to comprehend.To say that the "math" proves anything is wrong, unscientific, and disingenuous.
 
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While I was watching the YouTube video, I had in another tab, the high-resolution Man on the Moon original photo, and it's striking to be switching back and forth, that the effects of the light fading away towards the horizon just don't look that way at all on the original.

It might be helpful if you could post the original so that we can be sure we're all looking at and talking about the same thing. Would that be possible? How do you know it's the original (sincere question!)?

I also couldn't figure out the point they were trying to make by pointing out that the center-frame crosshair marker was on Aldrin's lower leg. So what? That just means that the camera was angled down.

That's correct.

How did they then make the logical jump that the camera was held at eye-level?

By analyzing many aspects of the photo. The cross-hairs per se have little to do with the analysis.

Seems to me that Armstrong was aware that Aldrin was downhill from him, and over-compensated because they didn't have a viewfinder.

That's a possible, plausibe and likely theory. It doesn't affect the analysis and conclusion, though.

Also, an early indicator of poor analysis skills, was when they were talking about the bright "hot spot" on Aldrin's boot as he descended the LM ladder. They scanned over someone's diagram showing the angles, and some angle on there (there wasn't explanation given of what these are) was labeled as being 3.1417 degrees. Anyone carrying out photogrammetry and measuring to the ten-thousandth of a degree is an idiot.

I agree that citing numbers to this degree can purport to give a false impression of accuracy. In actual fact, though, again, it doesn't affect the conclusion.
 
So, we know we could get to the Moon. We know that the vehicle to take us there did indeed go there. We know that the suits required for walking on the Moon were available.

Where then is the problem?

You mean to say that everything else will just look after itself?

"Hey, let's go scuba diving - we can take your car."
"Scuba diving! But I've never done it before."
"Not important. I've got the wet suits, you have the car to get us there, where's the problem?"

Doh!
 
...I have to say that most of them offer very superficial rebuttals based on far less analysis than is generally presented in the book.
The 'redzero.demon' website includes an explanation for the seemingly anomalous position of the camera for the famous Buzz Aldrin photo. The complete analysis and explanation follows:



Gee, that's nearly an entire line of text! Now it seems to me that that might well be a plausible explanation, but this particular website posits it as fact - no doubts or alternative ideas whatsoever. So what's the basis for this explanation? Well, it would appear that there's actually no basis, and that it's just a theory....


This is a common fallacy with conspiracy theorists.

Generally, conspiracy theorists point to what they perceive to be an anomaly with a given prosaic theory. Essentially, they’re saying “The only way in which X could occur is if there was a conspiracy, and the prosaic explanation is a lie. Further, X did occur. Therefore there was a conspiracy, and the prosaic theory is a lie”.

The rationalist might counter with “In reality, there are a number of explanations for X that are compatible with the prosaic theory, such as A, B and C”.

Now, the rationalist doesn’t need to prove with any degree of certainly whatsoever that A, B or C actually occurred. What they are showing by highlighting these possibilities is that the conspiracy theorists’ claim is false – a conspiracy is not the only explanation for X.

In brief, the argument goes something like this:

  • The only way to explain my anomaly is a conspiracy!
  • ---No, there are numerous non-conspiratorial ways to explain your supposed anomaly.
  • But you can’t prove any of those ways without doubt. Therefore my conspiracy theory is at least as good as the prosaic theory!

Notice how the conspiracy theorist has shifted his argument between his first statement and his second.
 
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You mean to say that everything else will just look after itself?

"Hey, let's go scuba diving - we can take your car."
"Scuba diving! But I've never done it before."
"Not important. I've got the wet suits, you have the car to get us there, where's the problem?"

Doh!

That's your rationale? So, do you believe Columbus tried to sail around the world even though it hadn't been done before?
 
keep banging those rocks together

You mean to say that everything else will just look after itself?

"Hey, let's go scuba diving - we can take your car."
"Scuba diving! But I've never done it before."
"Not important. I've got the wet suits, you have the car to get us there, where's the problem?"

Doh!

I am so glad that many many people don't think like that, we would never have left the caves if that was the case, flown, sailed, tried a food we had never eaten, got exceedingly drunk, ******** a prozzy, etc

I feel discovery and learning is one of our driving factors, why not watch what *firsts* a kitten gets up to when exploring your home

this is one small act for a kitten but one giant tear in the curtains for mankind
 
Southwind17, it seems to me we should be able to put the ALSEP issue to bed. Do you have any questions regarding my comments in post 192?

I realize it's only been a few hours. These Web forum discussions get awfully compressed, no?
 
Out of interest (because you haven't actually said so), do you consider that ALSEP provides indisputable evidence that man has walked on the Moon?

I can only conclude you either have a poor memory or you have not read the posts in this thread very well.

From post #86:
I would have thought it clear that my position is that there is no doubt of the authenticity of the moon landings. Indeed, that's why I mentioned ALSEP in the first place, as another item of rock-solid proof.

There is, actually, a third option. As we see above, you wrote:
... I mentioned ALSEP in the first place, as another item of rock-solid proof. [emphasis added]
Allow me to re-phrase with emphasis my original question slightly so it's absolutely clear what I'm asking:
Do you consider that ALSEP alone provides indisputable evidence that man has walked on the Moon?

Your inference that I would be proved 'wrong' if 'rock-solid evidence' were presented to me is completely erroneous and unfounded. I've stated before, and above, that I have, say, a 5% doubt, i.e. I'm around 95% certain, that man has walked on the Moon. What could I possibly fear being 'wrong' about?!

Then stop posting here for a few days and go read up on ALSEP. Then come back and tell us whether you find it solid evidence or not.

Ugh? That's your answer to my question? :boggled:

While you're at it, do some checking into just how many photos were taken on the lunar surface, and how many hours of television footage were taken on the lunar surface.

You really don't get where I'm coming from here do you! I suppose they're all rubber stamped: "Taken on the lunar surface" on the reverse, are they? Well who could possibly dispute their authenticity then? :rolleyes:

Incidentally, as a complete aside, I have some genuine Penny Black stamps for sale. Would you be interested in buying them from me, by any chance - very nice price?! :blush:
 
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Funny how a physicist and a researcher in photoanalysis missed what a computer maintenance intructor can see.

Yes, that does seem strange, doesn't it. I wonder what the possible explanation(s) for that could be? Perhaps your theoretical 'explanations' simply ... no, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. Well maybe ...
 
Yes, that does seem strange, doesn't it. I wonder what the possible explanation(s) for that could be? Perhaps your theoretical 'explanations' simply ... no, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. Well maybe ...
Just as a side note you attributed the quote to yourself.
Yes, that does seem strange, doesn't it. I wonder what the possible explanation(s) for that could be? Perhaps your theoretical 'explanations' simply ... no, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. Well maybe ...
Well I know that the mathorz that your quoting isn't the complete solution.
 
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Beyond all reasonable doubt.
There already is more than enough evidence to demonstrate the legitimacy of the lunar landings beyond all reasonable doubt. That you are either unfamiliar with it or ignoring it is your issue.

Allow me to re-phrase with emphasis my original question slightly so it's absolutely clear what I'm asking:
Do you consider that ALSEP alone provides indisputable evidence that man has walked on the Moon?
Sure. Then add the rest of the evidence — thousands of photos, dozens of hours of television footage, the engineers, the workers, the huge amounts of documentary evidence (training manuals, engineering reports, debriefing transcipts, and much, much more), the hundreds of pounds of rocks brough back, and so on and so forth.

The totality of that evidence proves the legitimacy of the lunar landings beyond all reasonable doubt.

That's your answer to my question?
Still refusing to educate yourself about ALSEP? Why do you choose to remain in the dark about it? Is it because it would demonstate your doubts about the legitimacy of the lunar landings are utterly unfounded?

You really don't get where I'm coming from here do you! I suppose they're all rubber stamped: "Taken on the lunar surface" on the reverse, are they? Well who could possibly dispute their authenticity then?
Yes, the prospect of forging thousands upon thousands of photos and dozens of hours of television footage is a realistic prospect. :rolleyes:
 
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Yes, that does seem strange, doesn't it. I wonder what the possible explanation(s) for that could be? Perhaps your theoretical 'explanations' simply ... no, that couldn't possibly have anything to do with it. Well maybe ...

Funny how you just addressed this one statement while at the same time ignoring everything else in the post. Hmmm. Why could that be?

As to my theoretical explinations, answer me this. According to the video you posted, the "physicists "stated the surface of the Moon could not possibly provide the necessary light to "fill" on the shadow areas. Then why does the light appear to be coming from below Aldrin in the "famous photograph"?
Notice the shadows on the suit? Notice how the top of Aldrin's helmet and shoulders are in shadow?
There can't possibly be an artificial light source below Aldrin He is standing in the surface of the Moon.
Take a look for yourself: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5903HR.jpg

Care to answer that? Care to show me where I am mistaken?

Why do the "physicists" miss that one little point in the video?

Is anything about that mentioned in Groves book?
Do you understand Groves's calculations or do you just take it for granted that he is right?
Have you ever thought that Groves may be mistaken?

I think I and others have shown that he is.
 
Funny how you just addressed this one statement while at the same time ignoring everything else in the post. Hmmm. Why could that be?

As to my theoretical explinations, answer me this. According to the video you posted, the "physicists "stated the surface of the Moon could not possibly provide the necessary light to "fill" on the shadow areas. Then why does the light appear to be coming from below Aldrin in the "famous photograph"?
Notice the shadows on the suit? Notice how the top of Aldrin's helmet and shoulders are in shadow?
There can't possibly be an artificial light source below Aldrin He is standing in the surface of the Moon.
Take a look for yourself: http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5903HR.jpg

Care to answer that? Care to show me where I am mistaken?

Why do the "physicists" miss that one little point in the video?

Is anything about that mentioned in Groves book?
Do you understand Groves's calculations or do you just take it for granted that he is right?
Have you ever thought that Groves may be mistaken?

I think I and others have shown that he is.

And How in HELL can the da*n thing reflect enough light so that it casts SHADOWS 240000 miles away, sheds enough light to READ by, 240000 miles away, but can't fill in a shadow 30 inches above its own surface?

We have some serious stupid going on out there, folks...
 
First generation scans of the original show a much more even lighting of the surface. The drop off we do see is caused by a zero-phase angle where because we're looking up-sun, we're seeing more shadow that we do lit areas. This can be aptly shown to work on Earth as well as these images that Jay Windley took for Clavius show.

[qimg]http://www.clavius.org/img/dirt-up.jpg[/qimg]
up-sun

[qimg]http://www.clavius.org/img/dirt-down.jpg[/qimg]
down-sun

The up-sun image is quite clearly darker than the down sun one, even though they are the same piece of dirt.

Doesn't look like the same piece of dirt to me, but I understand what you're trying to say. A cursory perusal of Wikipedia, however, suggests that you don't really understand what you're trying to explain here. If the drop-off is an effect of the zero-phase angle then why does it occur in all directions, including from the object to the camera? Also, the fact that these two photos do absolutely nothing to demonstrate the effect of drop-off does puzzle me somewhat. :boggled:

The issue is that the large crosshair should be in the centre of the picture, and it's not. Of course this is because Aulis' version is a publicity shot in which the bottom has been cropped and black added to the area above Aldrin (if you look at the original it cuts off right above his head, and actually removes the very upper right part of the PLSS.) This is really an obvious example of how poorly researched and crappy Aulis' work really is, they couldn't even be bothered getting hold of an original scan before making up stuff.

Now THIS has to be THE best example yet of foot in mouth in this thread, if not the history of the Forum. The cross-hairs are actually printed on the photo, or to be precise, have obscured any imagery from the photo, which allows them to 'record' on the photo. No amount of cropping or 'adding', therefore, will alter the position of the cross-hairs relative to the all-important image recorded. The 'issue', then, is not that the cross-hairs should be in the centre of the picture, but rather how you conclude that Aulis's work is 'poorly researched and crappy' from some innocuous cropping and 'adding' (the reproduction of the 'classic' Aldrin photo on Page 37 of Dark Moon looks exactly the same as the 'original' posted by you as regards aspect ratio, etc, except for some very minor cropping of the bottom edge and 'adding' to the top edge, if that's what it is, which has absolutely no bearing on the analysis of the photo).

This is the David Groves work I thought was being disgust (sic). Groves claims to be able to measure the position of the hotspot to a level that is smaller than the actual film grain.

Where, exactly, does Groves make such 'claim'? If he's guilty of anything it's failing to round off his figures to a level of detail commensurate with the image being analyzed. As pointed out earlier, however, by others as well as me, it makes absolutely no difference to the conclusions.

Other than that, the work is sloppy ...

Would you care to elaborate?

... but the final conclusion still doesn't rule out the most obvious source of the hotspot, Armstrong's shoulder, which was in the sunlight while the rest of him was in the LM's shadow.

'Most obvious?! You're expecting people to believe that Armstrong's shoulder was sufficient to reflect sunlight to such an intensity that it caused a hot-spot on Aldrin's boot? Do you actually understand what a hot-spot is? What kind of reflective material are you suggesting Armstrong's spacesuit was actually made from? I suppose you're expecting people to believe that it was also Armstrong's shoulder that backlit the entire LM, including inside the exit bay, while Aldrin exited and descended the ladder! I'm sorry, I've got to genuinely echo Belz's sentiment directed at me from earlier - feel free to join reality at any time! :rolleyes:
 
You're expecting people to believe that Armstrong's shoulder was sufficient to reflect sunlight to such an intensity that it caused a hot-spot on Aldrin's boot? Do you actually understand what a hot-spot is? What kind of reflective material are you suggesting Armstrong's spacesuit was actually made from? I suppose you're expecting people to believe that it was also Armstrong's shoulder that backlit the entire LM, including inside the exit bay, while Aldrin exited and descended the ladder!
Now how about the thousands of other photos taken on the lunar surface? Are you saying thousands of photos were faked? That does not strike you as an unrealistic prospect? (And then there's the dozens of hours of television footage.)

May I ask, how much familiarity do you have with the basics of photography? Can you tell us a bit about the differences between a 35mm and 70mm piece of film? Shutter speeds? F-stop settings? Lens focal lengths? Knowing your level of knowledge about photography is important in any discussion of the details of the Apollo photographs.
 
There already is more than enough evidence to demonstrate the legitimacy of the lunar landings beyond all reasonable doubt. That you are either unfamiliar with it or ignoring it is your issue.

'Doubt', by definition, derives from evidence against, not evidence for.

Sure. Then add the rest of the evidence — thousands of photos, dozens of hours of television footage, the engineers, the workers, the huge amounts of documentary evidence (training manuals, engineering reports, debriefing transcipts, and much, much more), the hundreds of pounds of rocks brough back, and so on and so forth.

The totality of that evidence proves the legitimacy of the lunar landings beyond all reasonable doubt.

You're after the prize for the biggest contradiction, aren't you! You say 'sure' to my question whether you consider ALSEP alone provides proof, THEN, in the same breath, so to speak, you switch to 'the totality of ... evidence' providing proof! Can you not answer my question unambiguously? Jeez, this thread's getting easier by the minute - you're all tripping over not only each other but yourselves in your own little debunking 'space race' :rolleyes:

Still refusing to educate yourself about ALSEP? Why do you choose to remain in the dark about it? Is it because it would demonstate your doubts about the legitimacy of the lunar landings are utterly unfounded?

I'm waiting for your unequivocal answer to my unequivocal question!

Yes, the prospect of forging thousands upon thousands of photos and dozens of hours of television footage is a realistic prospect. :rolleyes:

You don't think that this prospect pales in comparison to actually putting men on the lunar surface?! :rolleyes:
 
ooh pretty lights

dunno the specific reflective or specular indexes of the materials in question, was going to jfgi but I got distracted by the hotspot on my beer pottle caused when I lifted a pint glass to my mouth and it reflected the light emissions from my monitor (Edit) onto the bottle(edit),

dual curved surfaces made from glass, and yet caustics appear on the bottle, low quality glass is what 3 - 5% reflection?

anyhoo besides the 2 groves stundies do you entertain any of the other Aulis studies, non parallel shadows, multiple light sources, flood lighting, etc just so we can decide exactly which aspects of the apollo 'Photo' record you disagree with, maybe you would like to post some of jack whites work?

I am just hoping dust free sand doesn't get mentioned :scarper:
 
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