Fake Ron Paul Currency seized


Not very carefully it appears.

"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

How is that not fraud?
 
Not very carefully it appears.

"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

How is that not fraud?


That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.
 
That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.

Or claiming that it's worth 20$ when in reality it's worth only 15$. You're conviniently ignoring that little fact.

Here, I looked up fraud for you: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. "

Or don't you think that claiming that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$ is deceit?
 
Gift certificates?

Seriously?

Have you read the fine print on a gift certificate? Not Legal Tender

Liberty Dollar? Not Legal Tender

A five dollar Mickie D's gift certificate can't be exchanged for five dollars of unleaded at the gas station.
 
Seriously?

Have you read the fine print on a gift certificate? Not Legal Tender

Liberty Dollar? Not Legal Tender

A five dollar Mickie D's gift certificate can't be exchanged for five dollars of unleaded at the gas station.

I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?
 
Or claiming that it's worth 20$ when in reality it's worth only 15$. You're conviniently ignoring that little fact.

Here, I looked up fraud for you: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. "

Or don't you think that claiming that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$ is deceit?

Again, can you buy $20 of silver for $20?

ETA: By your argument: All trades of currency are illegal because currency value changes.
 
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Again, can you buy $20 of silver for $20?

ETA: By your argument: All trades of currency are illegal because currency value changes.

I find it difficult to believe that you're as obtuse as you're pretending to be, but nonetheles I will explain. You can sell 15$ of silver for 20$, 30$ or 200.000$ if you want. What you cannot do is claim, or suggest that others should claim, that your 15$ of silver is actually worth 20$. That is what they do, and that is fraud.
 
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I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?

What are you pining at?

Depends. For what exactly is the gift certificate redeemable? And who supposedly is expected to redeem it? You, for a back rub? A foot bath?

If the gift certificate is for anything redeemable *same as legal tender* anywhere at any business - then it is illegal. Fraud and counterfeit.
 
I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?

What are you pining at?

Depends. For what exactly is the gift certificate redeemable? And who supposedly is expected to redeem it? You, for a back rub? A foot bath?

If the gift certificate is for anything redeemable *same as legal tender* anywhere at any business - then it is illegal. Fraud and counterfeit.

You do understand that "legal tender" denotes that the merchant must accept as payment.

Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?
 
Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?

Probably not.

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.
 
Probably not.

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.

I think you see the point.

Legal tender is that which one is obligated by law to accept as payment for a debt.

Any individual is free to trade what ever for what ever with another individual.
 
I find it difficult to believe that you're as obtuse as you're pretending to be, but nonetheles I will explain. You can sell 15$ of silver for 20$, 30$ or 200.000$ if you want. What you cannot do is claim, or suggest that others should claim, that your 15$ of silver is actually worth 20$. That is what they do, and that is fraud.

Do you understand what a dollar is?

Your arguments present that you do not.

ETA: Is the $ symbol on the coins in question? If not, why are you using that symbol in your arguments?
 
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Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.

I see. My interpretation was that these coins were being used in place of money as an alternative unit of exchange, and introduced into public circulation. Not that they were being traded as second hand commodities.
 
Clearing up some questions and comments that need some explanation (Economics 240 or thereabouts):

BTW, which of those seized metals "are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value"?

Last I checked, value of gold, silver, and copper have been pretty volatile.

The idea in a standard is an attempt to peg the value of your money to some average cost of living (combined cost of goods a services to an everage person) in such a way that the value of the money can buy the same goods and services that it did in the past, and can be relied upon to do in the future.

So when asking Wildcat's question, you need to assume a standard. He or she is assuming the dollar is standard and measuring the cost of metal. It is just as correct (or incorrect) to assume the metal is constant and the money value is fluctuating. Einstein was right about relativity, you know. The real standard you seek is the mythical "average cost of goods and services". Unfortunately, that is not really easy to determine.

A real honest money system will attempt to make the currency buy the same thing at the same price through time. It is also deemed proper to add a markup as a difference in buying and selling price to make up for the costs of coinage and printing, but no profit (one reason the gov does the work). Any other messing is just fraud to one group of people or another.

Gold and silver is useful as a basis for a monetary system because:
- it is durable, doesn't rot or dissolve in many solutes readily, weighs essentially the same at all points in time, can be split into smaller parts or combined into larger ones easily, accurately and traceably (thanks, Archimedes).
- it is relatively rare, so that a small physical amount represents a goodly amount of goods/services.
- it is not so rare as to have to be traded by microscope.
- it's rarity remains relatively constant through time (a toughy). This can be done most readily by outlawing trade in that commodity, and stating a standard such as "one ounce of gold is worth $32.00". This is where we were when silver certificates were what we called dollars, in the middle of the 20th century. You can back this up, if your gutsy, by actually using an ounce of gold to make a $32 (plus small markup) piece, and use it publicly. The US was once gutsy in this way, but for various reasons (mainly having to do with international trade, where the US standard doesn't reach) has abandoned it, which is theoretically what upsets these people and Jerome.

The gold standard is essentially a bet that the price of a chunk of gold reflects the average cost of goods and services through time. Likewise the silver standard. Unfortunately, that makes your currency volatile due to efforts to "curb the market" in the commodity, like the Hunt brothers tried to do about twenty years ago.

The fed took the US off the gold and silver standards to stop the endemic monetary panics in the 19th century as speculators caused the metals to bob up and down.

I believe that the LD passing rules 5 and 6 in this thread constitute a borderline case of fraud, because if the receiver doesn't take the time to argue about the use of non-tender coinage he's suffered a loss which makes trust in real coinage decline. Truly, the receiver can decline the coin because it is not legal tender, but that assumes he's knowledgeable about what he's doing, something that another thread in this forum finds very iffy. The proof in the pudding is whether the transaction is symmetric; would the LD owner allow the LD to flow the other way just as readily as he tries to pass it? The answer is no, and that makes the transaction suspect. That, I think, is what an honest fed should be looking to curb.
 
I see. My interpretation was that these coins were being used in place of money as an alternative unit of exchange, and introduced into public circulation. Not that they were being traded as second hand commodities.

Sorry to confuse you. I was talking only about swapping second hand goods (like lawn mowers). I don't know if these coins would be considered second hand goods or not.
 
Apparently there is "fake" or illegal paper money involved. Also found a picture of a coin with Ron Paul's head on it. The Liberty paper certificates say Negotiable and are marfked $XX Silver Certificate.
 

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Any individual is free to trade what ever for what ever with another individual.

And fraud involving currency will be investigated by the Secret Service.

As shadron went into great detail explaining (as you never do), there were more pluses than negatives taking the dollar off gold convertibility. And I as tried to point out, there are plenty of easy ways to invest in precious metals and even use gold backed currencies for trade that are not riddled with fraud. Although, not surprisingly a few of the DGCs have had their services abused by criminals and money launderers.
 
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That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.

No, fraud is using BS language to convince someone that $15 worth of silver is worth $20 then only offering $15 to by it back if challenged as to the "worth" of the "currency". The language in the FAQ basically exposes Liberty dollars as the fraud they are.

When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars."

You're being obtuse as Kerberos noted and it didn't work for the perps who were trying to work the Liberty dollar scam nor will it work here.
 
Do you understand what a dollar is?

Your arguments present that you do not.

ETA: Is the $ symbol on the coins in question? If not, why are you using that symbol in your arguments?

Yes I know what a dollar is and I'm using $ because it's the accepted shorthand for dollar. Now are you going to adress the point ot not? How is it not fraud to claim that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$?
 
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How much does it cost to mint a Liberty Dollar? I assume it is relatively cheap, but the cost does have to be accounted for.

Only being willing to redeem them for $15.00 seems to make the case for the Feds.
 

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