Is U.S. education truly getting worse?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Begining in approx. the mid 60s, this was CONSCIOUSLY changed by leftist growing in numbers and power in ALL public institutions. As I've said, Dewey and his crowd of communists saw the goldmine for leftist indoctrination the schools offered in the 30s and 40s, but the nation was...less inclined to permit that in those days.

The "old school" ideals of the times prior to about this time were slowly (lefties are nothing if not patient) weeded out of the PS system. Does this mean every teacher is a pinko? No, but they don't have to be when they are educated in a leftist system K-postgrad. Mostly, they are simply spigots for spewing the approved leftist cant, which is why they themselves (unlike in the past) do not have to be terribly bright to "teach." They are not teaching...they are indoctrinating and even Stalin recognized that the best political officers were cowards without much going on upstairs.

Could you give us a specific example of one of the most important commie pinko modifications to the curriculum to weed out the more politically correct rightwing ideals? I'm not sure whether I'm going to hear a political modification or an educational modification, but I'm game for either.

~~ Paul

 

[drkitten]

Could you give us a specific example of one of the most important commie pinko modifications to the curriculum to weed out the more politically correct rightwing ideals? I'm not sure whether I'm going to hear a political modification or an educational modification, but I'm game for either.

[mode=tokenconservative] Allowing uppity colored folks to attend classes just like they was human. [/mode]

 

[Mashuna]

I am glad I scare you. I was personally asked by a principal to take over a 5th grade class that was utterly out of control and had driven their 1st year teacher to a nervous breakdown. While they were far, far behind in every area, let's look at math since it is most easily quantifiable: they were, on avg., (I tested them with homeschool materials) when I started, working at about the 2nd grade level. When I left, as I've said, perhaps 1/3 of them (those most skilled in math) were ready for 7th grade math, most of the rest were up to where they shoud've been or a bit beyond. I saw the same results in all the subjects.

I was fired.

I was fired because the 6th grade teachers learned what I was doing and did not like it.

Of course. You were too good a teacher, so they fired you. I'm entirely convinced that this is the whole story, and there is indeed a conspiracy against you. All other teachers are terrible, compared to how good you were. If only they'd kept you on.

No wonder you veer off to the right all the time. You're dragged over by the huge chip on your shoulder.

 

[volatile]

Of course. You were too good a teacher, so they fired you. I'm entirely convinced that this is the whole story, and there is indeed a conspiracy against you. All other teachers are terrible, compared to how good you were. If only they'd kept you on.

No wonder you veer off to the right all the time. You're dragged over by the huge chip on your shoulder.

Nominated. For Truth.

 

[volatile]

My kids recognize (because I have told them to be aware of it, for one reason) that I have a particular political bent that is very much right of center and that they need to analyze what I tell them through that understanding.

As a lib, your kids are simply indoctrinated and you'd be horrified if they had an original thought.

What do your kids think of anthropogenic global warming? Seeing as there is no evidence at all of your personal position (i.e. that it isn't happening), I'm guessing that if they share your view it is not through objective study of the issue, but simply by having taken your opinion by rote.

Who's kids are indoctrinated?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Of course. You were too good a teacher, so they fired you. I'm entirely convinced that this is the whole story, and there is indeed a conspiracy against you. All other teachers are terrible, compared to how good you were. If only they'd kept you on.

No wonder you veer off to the right all the time. You're dragged over by the huge chip on your shoulder.

No, there were some okay teachers there. A couple of them pulled me aside and, soto voce, expressed their support for what I was doing.

Um...are you under the impression that I care whether you believe this or not...or whether you are capable of understanding it?

Sorry if I led you down that primrose path.

That's exactly what the principal who insisted I come work for her told me: the 6th grade teachers are "worried" that you are moving your kids ahead too quickly.

But you are clearly my intellectual superior, please...tell me how else I might've taken that?

I worked very hard at that 5th grade class, allowing my lucrative "real" business to slide considerably (losing tens of thousands of dollars income that year). I had parents from the class calling/emailing me as much as 2 years later with updates on how well their kids were doing, and just after, to tell me how lousy the "new" teacher (a member of the Dance of the Lemons in that district as it turns out) was.

Am I angry about what the school did to those kids. I came to care very deeply about most of them and was very saddened when I was introduced to what the public schools are REALLY for.

It's something along the same lines of what I experienced when I was a part-timer during college at a large computer store (I was the de facto manager of software; this was when such stores had thousands of software titles on their shelves): the gen'l manager asked me what we should do to make the software area more utilitarian. I gave him some ideas that I thought would make it easier for the two largest groups of our software customers to find what they were looking for (typically, this involved someone tracking me down--no idea what they did on my off days).

He looked at me as if I were an utter moron and told me, "no...that's not important. What I mean is how can we make it look better for when the regional manager visits?"

I had no idea how to do that. Just as I had no idea how to stop kids from learning in that 5th grade class. Which is why they fired me, and got a "real" teacher.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

What do your kids think of anthropogenic global warming? Seeing as there is no evidence at all of your personal position (i.e. that it isn't happening), I'm guessing that if they share your view it is not through objective study of the issue, but simply by having taken your opinion by rote.

Who's kids are indoctrinated?

One of them doesn't really have an opinion. She likes hot weather and she like cold weather and doesn't really care which is going on outside.

The other has read a bit on this and believes that it is likely that human activity MAY be having a SLIGHT impact, but that most likely we are not having the sort of impact Global Warmingists believe we are.

Which is much like my own opinion, and which will be to you, proof--PROOOOOOFFFFFFFFF!!!--that she is brainwashed little ninny.

Whereas YOUR kids, believing as YOU do, that (American) humans are DESTROYING MOTHER GAIA WITH THEIR SUVS!! is proof of their highly evolved sense and extensive, wholly rational and non-prejudiced education on the issue.

And this is SOP/Playbook for a lib: if the child of a conservative (shocker!) holds some of their parent's views, they are "brainwashed." If the child of a liberal holds all of the views of their parent, they are "enlightened."

And someone was wondering in here why I can't engage libs in "rational" discourse....

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

[mode=tokenconservative] Allowing uppity colored folks to attend classes just like they was human. [/mode]

My favorite stalker! "Dr" Kitten!


Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Could you give us a specific example of one of the most important commie pinko modifications to the curriculum to weed out the more politically correct rightwing ideals? I'm not sure whether I'm going to hear a political modification or an educational modification, but I'm game for either.

~~ Paul

You're going to have to give this one another shot. This jumble is too confusing for me to pick through. Um...the right is not politically correct...that's the left.

I have no idea what it is you are asking me.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

I've realized for some time that you are a loony. For some reason, it took this long for me to realize you are a loony conspiratist.

This explains a lot.

I guess I've not paid enough attention to you to know this much about you one way or another.

Not sure whether I should be flattered, or just add you to my growning list of stalkers.

BTW: why is it it's a "loony conspiracy" when it's something a conservative doesn't like, but not the same when it's something a lefty doesn't like?

Can you explain the difference?

Tokie

 

[JoeEllison]

I was fired.

No great surprise there... should be interesting to go back to the beginning, and read your posts as "disgruntled former employee with a right-wing blind spot."

 

[Tokenconservative]

No great surprise there... should be interesting to go back to the beginning, and read your posts as "disgruntled former employee with a right-wing blind spot."

LOL.

And there is the libbie projectionism again: because libs promote their ideology in classrooms, that therefore means that conservatives do.

Tokie

 

[Mashuna]

I had no idea how to do that. Just as I had no idea how to stop kids from learning in that 5th grade class. Which is why they fired me, and got a "real" teacher.

Tokie

Sorry, couldn't see the rest of your post past this chip. I'm sorry again that you were such a good teacher they had to fire you.

 

[Flo]

I hear all the time that the U.S. public school system has deteriorated, and quality of education is worse now than XX years in the past. I am bombarded by damning anecdotes, and nearly swept away with the sincere and fervent emotions of those assaulting a "broken" system. But before I join the chorus of condemnation, I wish to verify my (and others') assumptions. I don't like singing in falsetto.

[snip]

Conclusion: I have a collection of impressions and data that doesn't tell the whole story. Is this enough to reasonably conclude a declining school system, or is it merely a tower of leaky buckets? Where do I go from here for hard data?

I keep hearing exactly the same here in Europe (mostly the two systems I know well, France and Switzerland).

Unfortunately, Tokie systematically butting in with his sour grapes and his various fetishes prevents all significant discussion of this fascinating subject.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You're going to have to give this one another shot. This jumble is too confusing for me to pick through. Um...the right is not politically correct...that's the left.

I was addressing you, so I believe the term "politically correct" applies to the right.

Could you give us an example of how the left has modified the curriculum to weed out the ideals of the right? I ask this in response to your statement:

The "old school" ideals of the times prior to about this time were slowly (lefties are nothing if not patient) weeded out of the PS system.

~~ Paul

 

[Leicontis]

I keep hearing exactly the same here in Europe (mostly the two systems I know well, France and Switzerland).

Unfortunately, Tokie systematically butting in with his sour grapes and his various fetishes prevents all significant discussion of this fascinating subject.

This is what makes the Ignore List so wonderful, especially with postcount inflators like Tokie. Makes for much faster, smoother reading of threads!

Back on topic...
I don't know about other countries, but here in the U.S., there seems to be a large subculture that disdains education. A large portion of this subculture is very poor, due to their inability to get high-paying jobs, due to their lack of education. Strangely, they don't seem to understand the connection, and still consider education a waste of time and money, to the point that some of these people will vote to cut the budget of the school their own children attend, if it means saving $0.10 a year on their taxes.

Of course, on the flipside, their are those who use public schools as free daycare, and expect the teachers to pretty much raise their children for them.

Members of both groups, of course, are quite fond of saying how much better they'd be at teaching than the people with degrees and decades of experience in the field of education. Huge budget disparities in school districts are the norm, thanks to the fact that much of a school's budget comes from local property taxes - rich neighborhoods tend to have well-funded, modern schools (partially just as a way of flaunting their wealth), while poor neighborhoods tend to have run-down, underfunded, overfull schools (partially due to their disdain of education and reluctance to spend more of their already tight budget on it). Throw in the "as long as I've got mine" types, who will try and shrink the budget of any service they don't have use for (such as education for those without school-age kids), and politicians who haven't got the foggiest clue about the things they're managing, and you've got what passes for the funding of a public school system in the U.S. today.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

... rich neighborhoods tend to have well-funded, modern schools (partially just as a way of flaunting their wealth), ...

I live in a wealthy town, but we must not know how to flaunt our taxes. The grade school is literally falling town, with roof repairs made three or four times a year; bats, squirrels, and chipmunks living in the ceiling, a foundation now lower than the surrounding ground, etc. We rank about 70 out of 90 for the number of computers per student in grade and middle schools. The septic system was shot and required monthly pumping until two years ago, when we finally replaced it under orders from the state. And yet people move to this town specifically for the school, and have for decades.

My guess is that we're spending our money on the teachers and staff.

~~ Paul

 

[Leicontis]

My guess is that we're spending our money on the teachers and staff.

Sounds highly plausible to me. My high school was pretty run-down (though not as badly as the school you describe), and was in fact quite poorly-funded, but had incredibly good teachers. I'm a 24-year-old graduate metallurgy student, and I haven't taken a biology course since 10th grade (about 8 years ago). I can still understand a lot of what my wife (the neurobiologist) says when she talks shop, and I credit this to my excellent biology teacher. A number of the teachers were on a comparable level to him, despite the lousy conditions in which they worked. My guess is that the teachers that were most interested in just educating children were the ones most likely to stay in a low-paying district, whereas the less driven teachers flowed to the high-paying schools.

A side question - were there a lot of retirees/senior citizens in your town? In some areas, people without children are hesitant to pony up for a school that doesn't directly benefit them (in others, these same people are some of the most ardent supporters - go figure).

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

A side question - were there a lot of retirees/senior citizens in your town? In some areas, people without children are hesitant to pony up for a school that doesn't directly benefit them (in others, these same people are some of the most ardent supporters - go figure).

We don't get much argument from senior citizens about taxes going to the schools, which is about 70% of the budget. The problem is that only 2.5% of the tax base is business. The rest is individuals.

~~ Paul

 

[Flo]

Back on topic...
I don't know about other countries, but here in the U.S., there seems to be a large subculture that disdains education. A large portion of this subculture is very poor, due to their inability to get high-paying jobs, due to their lack of education. Strangely, they don't seem to understand the connection, and still consider education a waste of time and money, to the point that some of these people will vote to cut the budget of the school their own children attend, if it means saving $0.10 a year on their taxes.

Of course, on the flipside, their are those who use public schools as free daycare, and expect the teachers to pretty much raise their children for them.

Members of both groups, of course, are quite fond of saying how much better they'd be at teaching than the people with degrees and decades of experience in the field of education. Huge budget disparities in school districts are the norm, thanks to the fact that much of a school's budget comes from local property taxes - rich neighborhoods tend to have well-funded, modern schools (partially just as a way of flaunting their wealth), while poor neighborhoods tend to have run-down, underfunded, overfull schools (partially due to their disdain of education and reluctance to spend more of their already tight budget on it). Throw in the "as long as I've got mine" types, who will try and shrink the budget of any service they don't have use for (such as education for those without school-age kids), and politicians who haven't got the foggiest clue about the things they're managing, and you've got what passes for the funding of a public school system in the U.S. today.

Hmm, seems one of the most important difference between the US and here is that funding of schools is decided at central/regional government level, and the local populations have no say in it. Teachers are mostly state employees who are dispatched to various regions throughout their careers, with those assigned to the less desirable schools (i.e. in poor, often troubled, suburbs where you find a subculture of disdain towards education) trying their best to be reassigned to better areas.

Situation in Switzerland is better, funds are aplenty and teachers are well paid, the country is still rather wealthy and there's little trouble. However, we still hear the same kind of wailing about the level of education being lower now than it was xxx years ago ...

It sounds like a big part of this wailing originates from people who object to the very concept of giving more than a basic education to the unwashed masses ... The only solutions they advocate are to favor private/religious schools, implement competition between schools, cut funding to the public sector, and introduce vouchers. I've still yet to see a sound argument for the results they promise should those policies be inplemented.

Another point I'd like to see resolved is: what do we measure exactly when we say that education level is worse now than it was earlier ?