Is U.S. education truly getting worse?

[Tokenconservative]

This seems an excellent point!

I would suggest that such is an issue of many goals and the prioritizing of those goals. Likewise instead of looking for one universal standard, perhaps we should be looking for a system that is much more multi-tiered and composed of alternately focussed programs and curricula to different segments of the student population based upon abilities and interest. I know a lot of US school systems claim/strive for this, but IMO, they fail much more often than not.

Perhaps the education system is not flexible nor diverse enough to adjust to changing and multiple prioities/needs?

This is how it worked pre-circa 1965, when the left (again) got its hands on the system (Dewey and his crowd tried this in the 30s, but were shown the door).

Since then, mediocrity--at best--has been the goal.

One thing we tend to forget is that this generation of "teachers" was "educated" by the previous generation in the same schools, who were themselves "educated" in the same schools by their predecessors. You have to go back to the 1950s, to find real education in our public schools.

Tokie

 

[Rob Lister]

I'm not asking what it is, I'm asking if it is effective for the end goal

 

[Leicontis]

Looking at Americans today, it would seem that our schools are often failing at all of their stated goals. Consider the question asked of Miss Teen South Carolina (but for the sake of your own brain cells, try to forget her answer), and what it implies for our knowledge of the world. How can we, as a people, be expected to make good decisions about things that so many of us apparently don't have even a basic understanding of?

The problem is compounded by political and economic leaders, who have no incentive to fix anything. To improve education would require politicians to make unpopular decisions (like spending enough money to pay teachers as much as other professionals with similar levels of education). Plus, a poorly-educated populace is easier to manipulate, which is good for both politicians and businesses, but bad for the little guy. As long as the little guy doesn't realize this, however, nobody will do anything about it.

One thing that always makes me shake my head is when people say things like "teaching's not that hard a job," "they're just in it for the money," "I could do a better job," etc.. The third statement often comes from people that haven't done a good job raising their children, which makes me wonder why they think they could handle a group of 20 of them. As to the second statement, my response is, "What money?!" Public school teachers are, in my experience, rarely paid salaries even close to those given to people with the same level of education, training, and experience in other fields. The generally resentful/condescending attitude towards teachers and the common disdain among the uneducated poor for education and those with it only serve to handicap the educational system and those within striving to improve the lives of their students.

 

[Tokenconservative]

I'm not asking what it is, I'm asking if it is effective for the end goal

What?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Looking at Americans today, it would seem that our schools are often failing at all of their stated goals. Consider the question asked of Miss Teen South Carolina (but for the sake of your own brain cells, try to forget her answer), and what it implies for our knowledge of the world. How can we, as a people, be expected to make good decisions about things that so many of us apparently don't have even a basic understanding of?

The problem is compounded by political and economic leaders, who have no incentive to fix anything. To improve education would require politicians to make unpopular decisions (like spending enough money to pay teachers as much as other professionals with similar levels of education). Plus, a poorly-educated populace is easier to manipulate, which is good for both politicians and businesses, but bad for the little guy. As long as the little guy doesn't realize this, however, nobody will do anything about it.

One thing that always makes me shake my head is when people say things like "teaching's not that hard a job," "they're just in it for the money," "I could do a better job," etc.. The third statement often comes from people that haven't done a good job raising their children, which makes me wonder why they think they could handle a group of 20 of them. As to the second statement, my response is, "What money?!" Public school teachers are, in my experience, rarely paid salaries even close to those given to people with the same level of education, training, and experience in other fields. The generally resentful/condescending attitude towards teachers and the common disdain among the uneducated poor for education and those with it only serve to handicap the educational system and those within striving to improve the lives of their students.

Americans, because of what we are and where we are, have always been a bit ignorant of the rest of the world (and why not be? Do they matter?).

Using the schools as a political football is not good. The left uses the schools as a laboratory to churn out other leftists (very effectively, by the way). Extremists on the "right" (so identified by the left-advocacy media) want to do stupid things like teach ID and Creationism in the public schools. As if there is time in the day to teach the thousands and thousands of different creation stories...oh, that's right...they just want to teach the ONE...as soon as they can agree on which version of that they want to have taught....

Manipulation/control is the issue: the dumber they make us, the easier it will be for them to control us. Exactly so.

Tokie

 

[Rob Lister]

Well, you're big on pointing out perceived problems but a bit short on suggesting viable solutions.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Hmmm...no, I don't think I will.

Anyone who believes the American public schools system is, today, aimed at educating Americans is either very pollyannish, or him/her/otherself a "part of the problem."

The American schools FIRST mission is exactly what I identified it as.

Tokie

The word is "pollyannaish". And you're wrong about the mission. It's really about training innocent children into accepting all sorts of Neocon rightwingnut propaganda. You know, Weapons of Mass Instruction.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I love this sort of "teacher reasoning"

So, because things were bad 30 years ago and because those in control of this data have learned how to make it look like it's not getting worse, what we have today is, ipso facto, "good."

Wow.

Wow is right, dude.

• I am not a teacher.
• There is apparently a conspiracy to rig the data.
• I said absolutely nothing about it being good or bad.

Just in case someone doesn't remember what I said:

We may rank poorly in math compared to other countries, but it doesn't appear to have worsened in the past 30 years:

http://lpadev.learningpt.org/gaplibr...mathscores.php

~~ Paul

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Manipulation/control is the issue: the dumber they make us, the easier it will be for them to control us. Exactly so.

Wait, but who are "they"? If they are people who went to public schools, then somehow the brainwashing didn't work. If they are people who went to private schools, then clearly private schools are a bigger threat than public ones. Ditto for people who went to parochial schools, or were homeschooled.

The only other thing I can think of is that they are people who went to public school before the public schools became dupes of the leftist agenda. In that case they must be fairly old and will die soon, so it's only a temporary problem.

Oh wait, I suppose it's possible that they are all foreigners, people who went to the good Japanese or German schools.

Who are they, for God's sake?

~~ Paul

 

[Tokenconservative]

Well, you're big on pointing out perceived problems but a bit short on suggesting viable solutions.

Rob: It looks from your post count that you've been here a while. You might think about either using the quote function or at minimum, identifying who it is you are directing your words to/responding to.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

The word is "pollyannaish". And you're wrong about the mission. It's really about training innocent children into accepting all sorts of Neocon rightwingnut propaganda. You know, Weapons of Mass Instruction.

Hmmm...so it is...I mispelled, so you know what that means: everything I have said or think is utterly, and completly wrong!!!! And the proof is my lousy spelin!!!!!

Sheesh.

LOL. Right. We have so many rightwingneoconsecludedcompoundpigignantracistsexisthomo'phobic'backwoodswarmongeringchickenhawkhaters teaching in the schools.

The teachers at my kids school who have rational perspectives do so soto voce (hope my spelin is correct!) while those with SOP/Playbook leftist screed, cant, slogans and propaganda seeping from their pores shout it from the rooftops.

What century to you live in?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Wow is right, dude.

• I am not a teacher.
• There is apparently a conspiracy to rig the data.
• I said absolutely nothing about it being good or bad.

Just in case someone doesn't remember what I said:

~~ Paul

1. Glad you finally cleared that up
2. So you are simply an apologist for the PSs? Wife is a teacher, then? Dad? Mom?
3. You use the word "conspiracy" a lot, but yes, there IS just such a "conspiracy" afoot.
4. And so you believe that by not taking a stance on something that so clearly REQUIRES a stance: even if true (not true, in fact...the numbers are cooked), the fact that our math scores have been abysmal over the past 30 years bothers you not in the least? Have you been paying any attention whatsoever to how US society has changed over that time? Do you know what's required to develop and build the thing attached to the thing in front of you upon which you are reading my words? Any idea at all?
5. Not taking a stance IS taking a stance, one that in a de facto way says: I am okay with this.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Wait, but who are "they"? If they are people who went to public schools, then somehow the brainwashing didn't work. If they are people who went to private schools, then clearly private schools are a bigger threat than public ones. Ditto for people who went to parochial schools, or were homeschooled.

The only other thing I can think of is that they are people who went to public school before the public schools became dupes of the leftist agenda. In that case they must be fairly old and will die soon, so it's only a temporary problem.

Oh wait, I suppose it's possible that they are all foreigners, people who went to the good Japanese or German schools.

Who are they, for God's sake?

~~ Paul

The brainwashing does not "take" on everyone. Ask the N. Koreans. Those with very strong families (not the kind you libs like to see!) and parents, grandparents etc. who work for themselves, especially (something else you libs'd like to do away with!) come out thinking differently. My kids at 14 and 16 recognize how twisted to the left is the thinking of many of their teachers (fortunately their bio teacher who was, by District decree, forced to show Algore's movie, laughed at it apparently throughout and then had them watch that debunking movie--and told the class: go ahead and complain about my showing this if you want. I have been doing this for 25 years and if this school fires me, I'll have another position inside a week, for more pay--I wonder why he'd say that if the system is not very much leftist directed?).

MY kids are not brainwashed because their mom and dad (married to each other, and whose kids--near as I can tell--don't have any other "parents") are capitalists who pay HUGE amounts in taxes and have run their own businesses for decades. But in talking to some of their friends, I can see that THEY are swallowing the leftist cant hook, line and sinker.

And we live in one of the "reddest" parts of a largely "red" state.

Now, let me see if I follow your leftist argument (and I do): Those like my kids, who come out of the PSs NOT brainwashed into all sorts of leftist ideology, are the "problem."

Ah.

I don't know about Japanese schools, but German schools are even more leftist than are US schools, and are entirely organized around a centralize government. Remember: it's in Germany where they are contimplating making Global Warming "denial" a crime punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Tokie

 

[NobbyNobbs]

One thing we tend to forget is that this generation of "teachers" was "educated" by the previous generation in the same schools, who were themselves "educated" in the same schools by their predecessors. You have to go back to the 1950s, to find real education in our public schools.

Tokie

Wait a sec. Our teachers learned from the previous group, who learned from their mentors, on back. You say you have to go back to the 1950's to find good teachers. But apparently, they don't seem to have passed on their knowledge of teaching. So they couldn't have been very good teachers, then, eh?

My kids at 14 and 16 recognize how twisted to the left is the thinking of many of their teachers

Tokie

Ah, but do they recognize how twisted to the right their father's thinking is?

You scare me, Token. Honestly. You claim to have been a teacher (which, honestly, I doubt. I sure as hell wouldn't hire you), yet you believe in brainwashing, that it's ok to teach your personal political leanings in school, etc.

Thank the FSM you don't teach my kids. And good luck to yours.

 

[volatile]

Remember: it's in Germany where they are contimplating making Global Warming "denial" a crime punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Psst! Global warming is that way.

How come you post about global warming in every single Forum subsection except the appropriate one? How come you blather about GW in every unrelated thread but the one specifically set up for you to do so?

If you want to talk about GW, and you so, so clearly do, then go and do it in the right place. Please.

 

[Rob Lister]

Tokie, you're off in lala land, as far as I'm concerned. This thread is about the quality of our educational system. Pick a metric and discuss.

 

[volatile]

Wait a sec. Our teachers learned from the previous group, who learned from their mentors, on back. You say you have to go back to the 1950's to find good teachers. But apparently, they don't seem to have passed on their knowledge of teaching. So they couldn't have been very good teachers, then, eh?

You're assuming the conspiracy theory needs to be internally consistent, and you're assuming that TC has thought his opinions through, Nobbs. It's statements like that which make it fairly manifest that he hasn't the slightest clue about the logical content of his blathering...

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

1. Glad you finally cleared that up

And that, my friends, is the ultimate classic Tokie. He jumped to the conclusion that I am a teacher, but is glad that I finally cleared it up. I wonder how many other conclusions he's jumped to whose targets have not managed to clear them up for him?

So you are simply an apologist for the PSs? Wife is a teacher, then? Dad? Mom?

No, no, no, and no.

And so you believe that by not taking a stance on something that so clearly REQUIRES a stance: even if true (not true, in fact...the numbers are cooked), the fact that our math scores have been abysmal over the past 30 years bothers you not in the least?

Why would you assume that?

~~ Paul

 

[Tokenconservative]

Wait a sec. Our teachers learned from the previous group, who learned from their mentors, on back. You say you have to go back to the 1950's to find good teachers. But apparently, they don't seem to have passed on their knowledge of teaching. So they couldn't have been very good teachers, then, eh?

Ah, but do they recognize how twisted to the right their father's thinking is?

You scare me, Token. Honestly. You claim to have been a teacher (which, honestly, I doubt. I sure as hell wouldn't hire you), yet you believe in brainwashing, that it's ok to teach your personal political leanings in school, etc.

Thank the FSM you don't teach my kids. And good luck to yours.

Sigh...

Begining in approx. the mid 60s, this was CONSCIOUSLY changed by leftist growing in numbers and power in ALL public institutions. As I've said, Dewey and his crowd of communists saw the goldmine for leftist indoctrination the schools offered in the 30s and 40s, but the nation was...less inclined to permit that in those days.

The "old school" ideals of the times prior to about this time were slowly (lefties are nothing if not patient) weeded out of the PS system. Does this mean every teacher is a pinko? No, but they don't have to be when they are educated in a leftist system K-postgrad. Mostly, they are simply spigots for spewing the approved leftist cant, which is why they themselves (unlike in the past) do not have to be terribly bright to "teach." They are not teaching...they are indoctrinating and even Stalin recognized that the best political officers were cowards without much going on upstairs.

My kids recognize (because I have told them to be aware of it, for one reason) that I have a particular political bent that is very much right of center and that they need to analyze what I tell them through that understanding.

As a lib, your kids are simply indoctrinated and you'd be horrified if they had an original thought.

I am glad I scare you. I was personally asked by a principal to take over a 5th grade class that was utterly out of control and had driven their 1st year teacher to a nervous breakdown. While they were far, far behind in every area, let's look at math since it is most easily quantifiable: they were, on avg., (I tested them with homeschool materials) when I started, working at about the 2nd grade level. When I left, as I've said, perhaps 1/3 of them (those most skilled in math) were ready for 7th grade math, most of the rest were up to where they shoud've been or a bit beyond. I saw the same results in all the subjects.

I was fired.

I was fired because the 6th grade teachers learned what I was doing and did not like it.

If I scare you, you horrify me. You have no problem with seeing a leftist worldview taught in the public schools because, after all, that's the "right" view...it's yours! But if anyone suggests offering a little balance, you are "scared."

Why is that? Oh...wait, you don't need to answer...I already know. You are a leftist and the left hates and fears nothing so much as the truth.

Tokie

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Sigh...

Begining in approx. the mid 60s, this was CONSCIOUSLY changed by leftist growing in numbers and power in ALL public institutions. As I've said, Dewey and his crowd of communists saw the goldmine for leftist indoctrination the schools offered in the 30s and 40s, but the nation was...less inclined to permit that in those days.

The "old school" ideals of the times prior to about this time were slowly (lefties are nothing if not patient) weeded out of the PS system. Does this mean every teacher is a pinko? No, but they don't have to be when they are educated in a leftist system K-postgrad. Mostly, they are simply spigots for spewing the approved leftist cant, which is why they themselves (unlike in the past) do not have to be terribly bright to "teach." They are not teaching...they are indoctrinating and even Stalin recognized that the best political officers were cowards without much going on upstairs.
Tokie

I've realized for some time that you are a loony. For some reason, it took this long for me to realize you are a loony conspiratist.

This explains a lot.