Does IQ cause income or vice versa

bpesta22 said:
For Athon.

In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).

Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.

If anyone wants to debate this for 10 pages, this is the thread!
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I would argue that within specific focal groups, intelligence provides an excellent guiding parameter of success within that group. However, you would have to demonstrate that such is applicable to intergrouping comparisons.

I'd further contend that the study you mention is either little supportive of your contention or I am misunderstanding its statements which seem to be more that intellectual pursuits help stave off degenerative mental declines in the populations studied:

Background
The aims of this study were to examine the extent to which higher intellectual abilities protect higher socio-economic groups from functional decline and to examine whether the contribution of intellectual abilities is independent of childhood deprivation and low birth weight and other socio-economic and developmental factors in early life.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1971068
 
IQ? Tell me what it means, how it comes about, and how you measure it. Then, maybe, we can start talking about outcomes. MAYBE.
 
JE-- we have many threads here on what IQ might be. I can link em if yer interested.

re: the Flynn effect. I don't know. Right now, I suspect it's not a g effect and so represents something unrelated to true IQ.

Also, I think it's important to remember for this specific topic that pointing out people who are smart but poor or dumb but rich is pretty much irrelevant to the argument-- at the very least, exceptions do nothing to falsify the argument.

EB: I don't think there's a contradiction; just two different (at least) ways to view it-- IQ causes SES or vice versa.

Finally, I don't see that exploring which way the cause goes, or which model best explains the variance, is stupid nor a waste of time.
 
NorwegianSquirrel said:
Does this mean that Mensa members are all in well paid jobs?

And what about those who are happy at their (lower paid) jobs, such as carpenters and plumbers. I know there are Mensa members among them.

Perhaps people with a high IQ are smart enough to see that money doesn't bring happiness, and therefore pursue other goals in life?
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In the UK at least, carpentry and plumbing are often extremely well-paid jobs. A qualified plumber can earn around £80,000 per annum.

That's mainly because of the skills shortage. There are other factors which influence income, not just intelligence.
 
tkingdoll said:
In the UK at least, carpentry and plumbing are often extremely well-paid jobs. A qualified plumber can earn around £80,000 per annum.

That's mainly because of the skills shortage. There are other factors which influence income, not just intelligence.
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OK then look at IQ and education. Lets see the average IQ of professors compared to plumbers.

This is actually a good example of why IQ isn't everything (although I certainly believe it is very important for life success). University professors are on average much dumber than plumbers, even if they are more intelligent. You have to be very smart to convince yourself to believe certain very stupid things.
 
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bpesta22 said:
JE-- we have many threads here on what IQ might be. I can link em if yer interested.
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That's sort of my point. We can't even come to an agreement on basic terms, so attempting to go further without that foundation seems fruitless.
 
suicidesamurai said:
OK then look at IQ and education. Lets see the average IQ of professors compared to plumbers.

This is actually a good example of why IQ isn't everything (although I certainly believe it is very important for life success). University professors are on average much dumber than plumbers, even if they are more intelligent. You have to be very smart to convince yourself to believe certain very stupid things.
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Any evidence of this? It seems that your position is reflexively anti-intellectual, without any basis in reality.
 
Do you see any wage differences across these jobs and how they might map on to mean IQ for people holding the jobs (based on metanalysis from Schmitt & Hunter, 2004). Also, what jobs seem do-able for an IQ=85?

Table 1
Mean GCT Standard Scores, Standard Deviations, and Range of Scores of 18,782 AAF White
Enlisted Men by Civilian Occupation:

Accountant 128.1
Lawyer 127.6
Engineer 126.6
Public-relations man 126.0
Auditor 125.9
Chemist 124.8
Reporter 124.5
Chief clerk 124.2
Teacher 122.8
Draftsman 122
Stenographer 121.0
Pharmacist 120.5
Tabulating-machine operator 120.1
Bookkeeper 120.0
Manager, sales 119.0
Purchasing agent 118.7
Manager, production 118.1
Photographer 117.6
Clerk, general 117.5
Clerk–typist 116.8
Manager, miscellaneous 116.0
Installer–repairman, tel. & tel. 115.8
Cashier 115.8
Instrument repairman 115.5
Radio repairman 115.3
Printer, job pressman 115.1
Salesman 115.1
Artist 114.9
Manager, retail store 114.0
Laboratory assistant 113.4
Tool-maker 112.5
Inspector 112.3
Stock clerk 111.8
Musician 110.9
Machinist 110.1
Foreman 109.8
Watchmaker 109.8
Airplane mechanic 109.3
Sales clerk 109.2
Electrician 109.0
Lathe operator 108.5
Receiving & shipping checker 107.6
Sheet metal worker 107.5
Lineman, power and tel. & tel. 107.1
Assembler 106.3
Mechanic 106.3
Machine-operator 104.8
Auto serviceman 104.2
Riveter 104.1
Cabinetmaker 103.5
Upholsterer 103.3
Butcher 102.9
Plumber 102.7
Bartender 102.2
Carpenter, construction 102.1
Pipe-fitter 101.9
Welder 101.8
Auto mechanic 101.3
Molder 101.1
Chauffer 100.8
Tractor driver 99.5
Painter, general 98.3
Crane-hoist operator 97.9
Cook and baker 97.2
Weaver 97.0
Truck driver 96.2
Laborer 95.8
Barber 95.3
Lumberjack 94.7
Farmer 92.7
Farmhand 91.4
Miner 90.6
Teamster 87.7
 
bpesta22 said:
I don't know. Right now, I suspect it's not a g effect and so represents something unrelated to true IQ.
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What is "true IQ" and can it be measured independently of IQ?

As usual you try to talk around the issue of the Flynn effect. But it makes no difference whether it is a "g effect", or whether "g" itself is (as many critics of IQ testing claim) a magical concept.

EB: I don't think there's a contradiction; just two different (at least) ways to view it
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You do present it as being contradictory views. This is what you said: "In my worldview A causes B. Many would argue the opposite, that B causes C." But they are not opposites at all, because the SES you had as a child is not the same thing as the SES you have as an adult.

IQ causes SES or vice versa.
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There is no "vice versa". One view is not the reverse of the other.
 
bpesta22 said:
For Athon.

In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).
Click to expand...

I'm taking courses in Behavior Analysis (fascinating topic), and I have a slightly different take on this that sort of goes along with what you're saying.

In BA, they talk about how we learn new behaviors based on older ones... various types of reinforcement (like in a family of songwriters, praise and attention would be given for things like coming up with new music or new lyrics and so forth.) These behaviors can limit the world or open up the world.

For the economically disadvantaged, the environment (including the culture) provides few reinforcers outside of the "come down to this level and stay here" type. Some goals are promoted (becoming a sports star, for example) but are not easily attained. Examples of diverse job types are not found in these communities (you don't see many people aspiring to become computer programmers, for example, or steelworkers or EMT personnel.) So those with relatively high IQs in these environments grow up in a place where most of the opportunity to learn social and intellectual skills that would suit them for something better simply aren't encouraged and aren't found.

There have been a few programs (mostly by idealistic behavior analysts and often ignored) that use positive reinforcement and other BA tactics to teach these folk better social and intellectual skills and help them increase their behavioral repretoire... but the success tends to get ignored because the tactics take time and skill to use.

(I looked for an easily accessible article on the programs I know about, but all I find are the abstracts and links to "pay me money and we'll show you the goodies" sites.)
 
JoeEllison said:
That's sort of my point. We can't even come to an agreement on basic terms, so attempting to go further without that foundation seems fruitless.
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"We" meaning this board. The science has a pretty strong consensus on Spearman's g and what it predicts. The debate has always been "does anything else but g matter?" not whether "g loaded IQ tests are the single best-- but not only-- predictors of success in life".
 
The thread question is: Does IQ cause income or visa versa?

The answer is that it is a particular sort of intellectual capacity that generates income: the ability to convince others to part with their property.

There are two ways to accomplish the above: appealing to another's fear or desire. A person can be absolutely ignorant of just about any substantive subject matter -- but, if he/she is convincing enough to sell to a buyer -- that's all that matters.

I have long said that the mark of a great salesperson is that he/she is just smart enough to believe in and understand the product/service being sold, and just ignorant enough to not recognize the defects. The really intelligent person readily observes the problems associated with any product/service, and thus cannot easily sell it, because of the knowledge of the downside.

So, the expert plumber plumbs, but he/she won't offer a deal on a substantial job, because he/she knows the effort that goes into doing it right. While the mediocre plumber will offer the deal and risk getting it wrong, because he/she doesn't recognize the defects as well, and if he/she's lucky over the long run, the mediocre performer will generate more income than the expert.

Thus, every endeavor falls in a normal distribution toward the mean -- IQ, income, plumbing, physics -- everything.

We are all separated, in the long run, by just one thing: luck. Them who's got it, win, and them who's don't, lose.
 
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Earthborn said:
What is "true IQ" and can it be measured independently of IQ?

As usual you try to talk around the issue of the Flynn effect. But it makes no difference whether it is a "g effect", or whether "g" itself is (as many critics of IQ testing claim) a magical concept.

You do present it as being contradictory views. This is what you said: "In my worldview A causes B. Many would argue the opposite, that B causes C." But they are not opposites at all, because the SES you had as a child is not the same thing as the SES you have as an adult.

There is no "vice versa". One view is not the reverse of the other.
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true IQ -- what I'm referring to-- is g, extracted typically from a factor analysis. I don't think the flynn effect is a g effect and I've posted links to articles on this in other threads. If the Flynn effect is a g effect, then I'd have to constrain all my claims to within cohort comparisons. It would be something that needs explaining but not as devastating to g as many here think, all imo.

Look at the table I just posted. How can something be magical yet rank occupations so strongly based on "perceived prestige"?

I misread your earlier post on the contradiction thing, my apologies.
 
bpesta22 said:
Do you see any wage differences across these jobs and how they might map on to mean IQ for people holding the jobs (based on metanalysis from Schmitt & Hunter, 2004). Also, what jobs seem do-able for an IQ=85?
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What year is this data actually from? I see some significant omissions (nothing computer related, for example), and some very dated job titles
Chief clerk 124.2
Tabulating-machine operator 120.1
Instrument repairman 115.5
Radio repairman 115.3
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kjkent1 said:
We are all separated, in the long run, by just one thing: luck. Them who's got it, win, and them who's don't, lose.
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Luck is not some mysterious quality one either possesses or doesn't. You make your own luck, largely, by attitude and observation.

Occasionally a crazy coincidence happens which puts something amazing in your path but generally those with good luck are doing something different to those without, and anyone with 'bad' luck can improve their luck.

Tons on the subject here:

http://www.richardwiseman.com/research/psychologyluck.html


My point about the plumbers was that the market dictates the value of the skill based on its availability. In the UK, a plumber can charge a lot of money because there are so few plumbers. If there were more plumbers, his income would drop. IQ is not relevant.
 
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bpesta22 said:
true IQ -- what I'm referring to-- is g, extracted typically from a factor analysis. I don't think the flynn effect is a g effect and I've posted links to articles on this in other threads. If the Flynn effect is a g effect, then I'd have to constrain all my claims to within cohort comparisons. It would be something that needs explaining but not as devastating to g as many here think, all imo.
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It's not an area I've studied, but I've heard of 'IQ' and I'm aware of some of the limitations of it. I've not heard of 'g' before - what's that about? Can you give a simple summary or a reference?

I also don't see how you can sum up everything in one simple number; I know people I would like to think I'm more intelligent than, yet who are way more successful at selling than I ever would be. Different jobs need different skills, and 'IQ', whatever that is, is not the one that counts for all jobs.
 
If that were true all those with "gifted" IQ levels would be running this country and world. It doesn't work that way of course. Standard IQ tests do not measure social intelligence or emotional intelligence.
 
zooterkin said:
What year is this data actually from? I see some significant omissions (nothing computer related, for example), and some very dated job titles
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From 1945.

I have the same data from today in the wonderlic manual, but it wasn't electronic and so I couldn't paste it here.

If you're interested in IQs for more current jobs list them and I can post them.
 
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