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Does IQ cause income or vice versa

bpesta22

Cereal Killer
bpesta22
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
4,942
For Athon.

In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).

Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.

If anyone wants to debate this for 10 pages, this is the thread!

Here's one quick study I found on it-- not sure of the journal, and it's on older people versus everyone, but:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1971068

Conclusion
Rather than developmental and socio-economic characteristics of early life, the findings substantiate the importance of intellectual abilities for functional decline and their contribution – as potential, but neglected confounders – to socio-economic differences in functioning, successful aging, and quality of life. The higher intellectual abilities in the higher socio-economic status groups may also underlie the higher prevalences of mastery, self-efficacy and efficient coping styles in these groups.



Note that the theme of the bell curve was my argument above, though I won't use it as evidence here, since many people seem to think it's not good science.
 
bpesta22 said:
In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).

Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.
Click to expand...


In my humble opinion (which may be discredited with sufficiently selective data-mining), IQ is the major contributing factor in how successful a person will be.

However, without an effective learning process and the opportunities to demonstrate a superior IQ, a person may never realize their full SES potential. "Smart" or "Dumb," an ineffective school system is wasteful.

However - however, even in the best of educational systems a limited IQ will take a person only so far, to be surpassed in SES by the more intellectually gifted from the same system.

It takes both the capacity for learning and abundant learning resources for anyone to achieve a high "SES."
 
I guess there are two possibilities. One is that I'm not smart enough to comprehend that crap.
 
In my humble opinion (which may be discredited with sufficiently selective data-mining), IQ is the major contributing factor in how successful a person will be.
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How are you defining "successful"? I have no doubt that if you want to get rich, it will certainly help to be intelligent. But of course intelligence doesn't "cause income" (as the title of this thread asks).

Hard work and intelligence can lead to a high income. But capitalism doesn't necessarily reward the smartest and/or hardest workers; it rewards those who are economically valuable (Bill Gates, a very smart, very hard working guy; but also Paris Hilton, et al). Being born looking like a supermodel helps, as does being born rich.
 
bpesta,

If you are saying that "all things being equal those will higher intelligence will tend to have higher incomes because of their higher intelligence" I agree with you.

On the other hand, all things being equal, those born with greater wealth will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with greater wealth.

All things being equal, those born with easier access to business conections will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with easier access to business conections.

All things being equal those born without the hardship of social prejudice will tend to have higher incomes than those who were, because they were born without the hardship of social prejudice.

etc.
 
Roboramma said:
bpesta,

If you are saying that "all things being equal those will higher intelligence will tend to have higher incomes because of their higher intelligence" I agree with you.

On the other hand, all things being equal, those born with greater wealth will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with greater wealth.

All things being equal, those born with easier access to business conections will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with easier access to business conections.

All things being equal those born without the hardship of social prejudice will tend to have higher incomes than those who were, because they were born without the hardship of social prejudice.

etc.
Click to expand...

I think I'm making the first point-- the variance in SES is largely caused by IQ and not vice versa.

I think SES is multiply determined, but the largest chunk is IQ driven.

I dunno if that's simplistic.

I think the effects of IQ for any one person are likely weak and unreliable when predicting something like income/SES.

But, we're talking millions of people here-- even a .40 correlation between SES and IQ would result in massive wealth distribution and re-distribution based on IQ (assuming I got the direction of causality right).

So, it'd be easy to show a rich dumb person and a smart poor one. Aggregate across millions of smart and dumb though and the group level effect is massive with important practical implications.

My world view is not so much a number (IQ) but the effects the number has when millions of people differ widely on the number.

1 million 85s versus 1 million 115s could lead to compelling outcome differences.

Joe with an 85 versus sue with a 115-- I wouldn't bet the farm.


Hope that clarifies.
 
Income is not caused by IQ. Rather, the APPLICATION of IQ. A better application of a lower IQ may bring greater income than a poor application of a higher IQ. All things being equal ;)
 
There are personality traits that can help or harm the capacity for income. Then there are different forms of intelligence, and different economic conditions conducive to success in the presents or absents of some forms of intelligence. Of course you can't neglect the importance different individuals place on their income potential. Scientist generally don't say "Hey this pays good".

Personal skills in assessment test.
IQ: Well above normal
Verbal: Outrageous (Perhaps an early speach impediment had something to do with that.)
Mechanical: 85 percentile
Perceptual speed: 23 percentile :o

Other
People: Sucks (Learned to fake it with enough effort. Can't maintain the effort long).
Memorization: Still don't remember the multiplication tables. Calced it fast enough to fool most teachers (I talked s--l--o--w anyway at that time).

I learned early on that once I understood certain underlying principles I could figure out on my own what some people would study the whole year to be able to do. I'm still somewhat jealous of certain intellectual skills that seem so easy to others but I lack.

Income: sucks (Never really cared but perhaps I should, within reason.)

Yes IQ is important but I suspect that income will correlate more strongly with certain personality traits.
 
Skeptic Guy said:
How does this explain George W?
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One example that shows it's not always true that the smartest, hardest working people go the farthest. As Roboramma eloquently pointed out:
On the other hand, all things being equal, those born with greater wealth will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with greater wealth.

All things being equal, those born with easier access to business conections will tend to have higher incomes because they were born with easier access to business conections.

All things being equal those born without the hardship of social prejudice will tend to have higher incomes than those who were, because they were born without the hardship of social prejudice.

etc.
Click to expand...
Hard work and intelligence help, as do looks, the body that you're born with, connections, race, etc.
 
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bpesta22 said:
Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.
Click to expand...

Do you believe that environment and opportunity do not effect IQ? If so, how do you explain the Flynn effect?
 
bpesta22 said:
In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).

Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.
Click to expand...
In my worldview (where the sky is sometimes gray and sometimes black, sometimes blue and sometimes -- but much rarer -- any number of other colours) the things you mention are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are entirely compatible.

Where is the contradiction in: "Environment and opportunity leads to higher IQ which leads to success in life which leads to high economic status." ?
 
I don't want to derail the thread, but I'd like to mention a thread I started that discussed some related issues: U.S. income disparity

From the OP:

When CEOs make hundreds of times more than the average worker, is that because they're hundreds of times smarter and/or harder working than the lower level workers? Is 500 times too much? 1,000 times? 100 times?
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and from post #8:
Wealth generates wealth for the wealthy. You need some brains to do it with, but not a lot, I imagine. What's really important is having the capital.

Poverty can generate wealth, but you need a lot more brains for that one.
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And it goes on for 7 pages.
 
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Does this mean that Mensa members are all in well paid jobs?

And what about those who are happy at their (lower paid) jobs, such as carpenters and plumbers. I know there are Mensa members among them.

Perhaps people with a high IQ are smart enough to see that money doesn't bring happiness, and therefore pursue other goals in life?
 
bpesta22 said:
In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).
Click to expand...
http://www.barrycomp.com/bhs/s_e_index.htm

Is this the right scale?
Higher Managerial occupations 1.1 Company directors, Police Inspectors, Bank Managers, Senior Civil Servants, Military Officers
1.2 Doctor, Barrister, Solicitor, Clergy, Librarian, Teacher
Lower Managerial 2 Nurses and midwives, Journalists, Actors, Prison Officers, Police and Soldiers (below NCO)
Intermediate 3 Clerks, Secretaries, Driving Instructors, Computer Operator
Small employers 4 Publicans, Farmers, Play group leader, Window cleaner, Painter and Decorator
Lower supervisory and craft 5 Printers, Plumbers, Butchers, Bus Inspectors, TV engineers, Train drivers
Semi-routine occupations 6 Shop assistant, Traffic Warden, Cook, Bus drivers, Hairdressers, Postal workers
Routine occupations 7 Waiters, road sweepers, Cleaners, Couriers, Building labourers, Refuse collectors
Never worked 8 Long term unemployed and non-workers
Click to expand...
 
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NorwegianSquirrel said:
Does this mean that Mensa members are all in well paid jobs?

And what about those who are happy at their (lower paid) jobs, such as carpenters and plumbers. I know there are Mensa members among them.

Perhaps people with a high IQ are smart enough to see that money doesn't bring happiness, and therefore pursue other goals in life?
Click to expand...


I have heard that college graduation rates drop as IQ goes up, above about 120? I wonder what a graph would look like?

Personally, I went to college for a while- I did some girl watching, ate my lunch, then went back to work. My GED score qualifies me for MENSA. I've made a good living as a craftsman all these years. And enjoyed every day of it. My customers would come in and say things like "You are so lucky to be doing what you love". Well, they were doing what they loved too- they loved that zip code, that phat BMW, that private school. But HATED their jobs, where they spent 60 hours per week, and couldn't allow themselves to take an afternoon off to go see their kid's activities. Doing what they love, loving the wrong things. Where is the IQ in that?
 
I'd like to point about some factors that conduce to a veary high SES, even if the subject has just a normal IQ:

- Ability to sell.
- Leadership
- Extent and quality of social network.
 
bpesta22 said:
In my worldview (where the sky is blue!) one's IQ causes how successful he/she will be in life and how much money he/she will make (or Socio Economic Status-- SES).

Many would argue the opposite-- that the environment and opportunity you get as a kid (with SES being a crude measure of this) determines how smart you are.
Click to expand...

The problem is, you are both wrong. Or you are both right, depending on how you look at it. There is certainly a genetic component to intelligence, but there is also certainly an environmental component as well. To argue for either as the exclusive cause or effect is just stupid.
 
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