Stormfront Supports Ron Paul

marksman said:
Wow. I thought only the right-wing nutjobs used this argument.
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I think Joe might be trying to be sarcastic.
Joe is right in the silliness of the Liberatrians viewpoint,but he goes too far n the other direction for my taste. Joe at times seems to resent ANYBODY who has wealth.
 
marksman said:
Wow. I thought only the right-wing nutjobs used this argument.
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Sometimes it IS accurate, you know? Just because right-wing nutjobs use an argument, it doesn't automatically make it completley useless.

Unfortunately, I kind of misused it... and I apologize. :boggled:

Libertarians hate pretty much all modern civilization, not just the American version of it.:D
 
dudalb said:
I think Joe might be trying to be sarcastic.
Joe is right in the silliness of the Liberatrians viewpoint,but he goes too far n the other direction for my taste. Joe at times seems to resent ANYBODY who has wealth.
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Not me, dude... I HAVE wealth**, as I've pointed out several times. I resent the arrogance of people who refuse to admit the elements of chance that lead to personal wealth, and don't appreciate their good fortune. That's my issue with libertarians: they have benefited by being born in wealthy countries, and have often greatly benefited from the system of government that they seek to tear down.

**At least compared to the majority of American households. I'm WAY over the median household income, although I'm not "rich".
 
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JoeEllison said:
Libertarians hate pretty much all modern civilization, not just the American version of it.:D
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It's ridiculous to say libertarians hate all civilization. There's an immense difference between civilization and government.

I'd argue that most libertarians actually appreciate civilization- by which I mean industry, technological progress, and many other forms of voluntary cooperation- more than most other ideologies do.
 
I have never heard a Libertarian give a convincing argument as to how a governement can provide essential services such as police and a Military without taxes. You can argue about how much taxes should be paid, but to abolish them altogether is just plain crazy.
 
Admiral said:
It's ridiculous to say libertarians hate all civilization. There's an immense difference between civilization and government.

I'd argue that most libertarians actually appreciate civilization- by which I mean industry, technological progress, and many other forms of voluntary cooperation- more than most other ideologies do.
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Nope... they make up the lie that it is based on "voluntary cooperation" that is only hindered by government, and then make decisions based on that lie. Garbage in, garbage out.
 
dudalb said:
I have never heard a Libertarian give a convincing argument as to how a governement can provide essential services such as police and a Military without taxes. You can argue about how much taxes should be paid, but to abolish them altogether is just plain crazy.
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Once you claim that the government SHOULD provide some services, you are in the exact same situation as everyone else. You are talking about priorities, what YOU believe the government should be paying for. In that respect, the libertarians are just like every other party, just with an extra helping of hypocrisy.
 
JoeEllison said:
What an ignorant, childish view of reality. Here's an idea: leave. Since you obviously hate America, instead of trying to force your viewpoint on America, why not find a place where you can avoid being a citizen, since it is citizenship that you hate so much.
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This is a perfect example of the violence and ignorance of the collective.
 
dudalb said:
I have never heard a Libertarian give a convincing argument as to how a governement can provide essential services such as police and a Military without taxes. You can argue about how much taxes should be paid, but to abolish them altogether is just plain crazy.
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Anarchists (or rather anarcho-capitalists) make up only a small portion of libertarians. Most libertarians (including myself) want to shrink the government down to national defense and justice enforcement (which would include police and court systems), meaning the taxes people paid would be very small.

Obviously, this would still require taxes, and it's true taxes are coercive. This is just something that a libertarian society has to live with. At least libertarians, unlike liberals or conservatives, appreciate that taxes ARE coercive, and that we should get rid of them as much as possible.
 
Admiral said:
Obviously, this would still require taxes, and it's true taxes are coercive. This is just something that a libertarian society has to live with. At least libertarians, unlike liberals or conservatives, appreciate that taxes ARE coercive, and that we should get rid of them as much as possible.
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That's just a silly view of taxation, IMO.
 
JoeEllison said:
Once you claim that the government SHOULD provide some services, you are in the exact same situation as everyone else. You are talking about priorities, what YOU believe the government should be paying for. In that respect, the libertarians are just like every other party, just with an extra helping of hypocrisy.
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I'll take it from your post criticizing government's involvement in anything that you're an anarchist. Surprising, but OK.

Less flippantly- if you really want to get down to it, there are many philosophical arguments as to why a government should defend rights. For example, there's rights consequentialism, which argues effectively that while people have a right not to get robbed by their government, they also have a right not to get robbed by other citizens or other countries. Therefore, it's permissable to violate people's rights in order to tax them to enforce justice for other people.

Think of it on a micro scale. We have A, B, C, and G (government in our representation). A is attacking B, while G is nearby. C lives in a nearby house, where he left his gun under his bed. G wants to protect B, but doesn't have a gun. Can he steal C's gun in order to protect B?

I'd say yes, he can morally do so.

Now let's take another example. A and B don't have a library. Is it morally permissible for G to steal money from C so that he can build A and B a library?

If you see the difference in situations, you'd see why enforcing justice is different than, say, building a library, or sending people to the moon, or many other functions government does with money they received from taxes.
 
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If you see taxation as theft, as far as I'm concerned you don't have a position worth respecting if you then claim that some taxation is ok if it is something that YOU want.
 
It's sad that a forum of (supposed) skeptics is littered with people so incredibly stupid. Honestly, where do some of you guys get this crap? I've seen forums run by juveniles that had less reliances on fallacies, half-truths, and outright lies than this place.
 
JoeEllison said:
If you see taxation as theft, as far as I'm concerned you don't have a position worth respecting if you then claim that some taxation is ok if it is something that YOU want.
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Many times the "taxation is theft" mantra is being applied to social programs like social security, welfare, etc, rather than necessities like police. Some may even still view taxation as theft but otherwise necessary because there is no other way--as anarchy itself is even more undesirable.

You really don't see how taxing someone to give another group money is theft in any way, shape, or form, simply because a group of people have declared that you should under penalty of jail time, etc?

To use an extreme, what if Congress decided to give away ALL of your wealth? That's not stealing? If you don't like it, leave!
 
JoeEllison said:
Nope... they make up the lie that it is based on "voluntary cooperation" that is only hindered by government, and then make decisions based on that lie. Garbage in, garbage out.
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I don't know where the garbage went in, but that post certainly was "garbage out".

Could you try sticking a bit more "quality" in your posts from here on out, please?
 
G19 said:
This is a perfect example of the violence and ignorance of the collective.
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What do you expect over people who center a philosophy around bums and beggars at the expense of people trying to just live their own lives?
 
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