Nuclear Energy - I need to vent/rant

So, the HIGHEST in nuclear energy costs is about equal to the mid-range of wind, and about the lowest of hydro-electric. And the ever-touted life-saving solar energy is off the charts. (Yes, I know, peak is great and all, but I do like having my energy available to me when I need it).

Well, I know which horse I'm betting on.

Just keep in mind that the document you're basing your decision on is put out by Nuclear Energy Agency. I've previously posted sources with dramatically different conclusions.

And by the way, peak is all about energy when you need it. That's why it's so expensive.
 
If I remember, the Yankee Rowe nuclear plant was a Naval reactor design. Wasn't very big- around 170MW, but it was built for well under $50 million and operated for 32 years. Pretty economical I think. But that was then and this is now- Permitting and design of a new nuke takes a long time and big bucks. It's an argument for standardized designs like the French do.

Of course the French have a whole different take on nuclear power. When I was in St. Pierre and Miquelon some years ago I was amazed that power for the whole island was supplied by big diesel generators running on imported oil. When I suggested to my St. Pierre host that maybe a small nuke plant might be a better alternative he said he thought that was an excellent idea. Can you imagine the reaction if you told the good folks in a place like Martha's Vineyard that they should build a nuke plant on their island?

A modular pebble bed would be nice...

glenn
 
Funny that this should come up. The battle over wind farms in that area is intense, and involves a lot of money. Another topic looms large...
 
If I remember, the Yankee Rowe nuclear plant was a Naval reactor design. Wasn't very big- around 170MW, but it was built for well under $50 million and operated for 32 years. Pretty economical I think. But that was then and this is now- Permitting and design of a new nuke takes a long time and big bucks. It's an argument for standardized designs like the French do.

Of course the French have a whole different take on nuclear power. When I was in St. Pierre and Miquelon some years ago I was amazed that power for the whole island was supplied by big diesel generators running on imported oil. When I suggested to my St. Pierre host that maybe a small nuke plant might be a better alternative he said he thought that was an excellent idea. Can you imagine the reaction if you told the good folks in a place like Martha's Vineyard that they should build a nuke plant on their island?


The potential for small modular reactor designs seems really exciting to me. The DOE has done many studies on the whole idea of standardized low and medium sized reactors.

The advantages include that it's a scalable system which can be built in a modular manner which means you get generating capacity before it's reached it's final size. Also it can be designed for easy expansion and very high reliability and variable power capabilities. The use of some of the newer integral advanced fast reactors they can power them up and down pretty easily and they have good variability of the thermal mass.

Also, high reliability and continuous use. Any unit can be shut down for refueling, inspection or servicing without shutting down the whole system. It also floated around a bit after TMI. In the highly unlikely event of a reactor damaging accident, your cleanup and capacity loss is limited by not relying on a few very large single units.

They had a partial setup a while back at the idaho national labs. There were plans to build the modular-scalable concept a long while back using six modules at about 900 megawatts or eight for 1200 megawatts on a common central steam bus. Of course... despite a lot of potential that never went anywhere.

Here's the latest incarnation of the concept:

Smith1.jpg


It's a single unit reactor. Completely sealed "black box" design. Self regulating by passive thermal feedback internally. It'll do up to 100mw of electricity.

It's tamper-resistant. It does not contain or produce anything of use for weapons, except for maybe spent fuel for a dirty bomb, after it's been running a long time (good luck to anyone to remove it without killing yourself... you can't). It's designed to be self-sealed to a degree that it basically is "it's own cask." Highly passively safe and high density non-solable fuel. It's designed to be capable of remote monitoring and high safety with minimal security.

It also has a projected lifespan of 30 years. They hope to have the first fully functional prototype by 2015.

I really think it's exciting but I also think Caldicott and her crowed will do a decent job at stopping it in the name of "peace," which really I think is something to be infuriated about, (assuming it happens which I think it will).

Just think of the difference this sort of thing could make in humanitarian situations. Look at New Orleans, for example. How much different would it have been if FEMA had a few 100-megawatt units on hand?

They could have powered back up portions of the city where the electrical feeds were gone. Gotten pumps back online. Even provided power to surviving residences so people could get their sump pumps turned and start drying out. Powered the hospitals, which had run out of diesel within days. Streetlights, floodlights and electricity in the areas that fell into lawlessness. Cold storage for food. Power for the police stations and fire houses. Ample electricity for emergency centers and such.

Imagine what the superdome would have been like if they had electricity. Luddite will tell you air conditioning is a luxury. I think people in the superdome would have disagreed. Not only because it broke 100 degrees, but without air conditioning in New Orleans, the extreme humidity meant there was no place dry to escape from the floods and dry out. Everything was sticky damp and wet. Disease and mosquitoes were impossible to avoid.

And most importantly: water. Megawatts of electricity and gigawatts of thermal energy means that you can make clean fresh water for everyone.


This isn't a "dream of a how nuclear fixes all problems." It's a fact that in Katrina much of the devastation and inability to control was because of not having the energy. The first priority was establishing power to the pumps. That took weeks, more than a month in some cases. The city was dark and police and fire were in diar trouble, as were hospitals which degraded to hellish conditions when their diesel supplies ran out. Patients were attempted to be evacuated. But many died and in the superdome the lack of ventilation, light, water, even the sweage pumps to keep the bathrooms flushing lead to a crucipal of death and disease.

For weeks afterward, blackhawks from the national guard dropped drums of diesel to field generators and hospitals. Lineman worked feverishly to completely rebuild miles of high voltage feeds to get the pumps and powered again.



How much difference would it make if you dropped this and an evaporator on a poor island during a drought? What about a refugee camp in Africa? They can't get enough fresh water in to keep people alive in some cases.

The IAEA has jumped on this idea before and issued reports to the UN on the potential such systems would have to completely liberate energy needs in some very severe humanitarian situations.

Being able to provide clean drinking water, even enough water to bathe and to pump away sewage, to provide functional medical centers, to provide ample electric lighting... What a difference this could make for a large refugee camp in a famished area????

The possibilities are extreme. You could very easily bring such great capabilities to these areas which need it so desperately.


But those like Caldicott have an agenda, and if you tried to provide this, they will say "Those poor African children are being irridiated by that big bomb that the corporations lobbied to have sent there for profit!" And so it won't happen. And the children who could have clean showers and water to drink, who could go to school in big tents with cool air blown in. Who could be safe in a well lit and orderly center... no... they will have none of that.



Maybe we can send them a goddamned windmill instead.
 
I don't understand why some people are so against Nuclear Power. It seems like every time some country wants to join the Nuclear club, the people that already have nuclear power want to stop them. That doesn't seem fair at all.
 
I don't understand why some people are so against Nuclear Power. It seems like every time some country wants to join the Nuclear club, the people that already have nuclear power want to stop them. That doesn't seem fair at all.

Yeah. Horrible how the US tried so hard to stop Germany, Japan, Sweden, South Korea, Norway and Canada from acquiring it. Funny how "stopping them" apparently means the same as "exporting several reactors to"


But of course, I guess it's pretty unfair that we don't help out Iran with their nuclear ambitions.

Oh wait I forgot. You can't sell them a freakin load of fertilizer and not expect them to turn it into a bomb.

I think it's also pretty hypocritical that we don't like it with certain countries like Iran or North Korea buy other stuff that we have. What's up with everyone getting pissy when north Korea wants to buy something entirely legitimate like we have.

For example, a bunch of massive bioreactors, culturing matter, incubators, atomizers and organic synthsis stuff? I mean *obviously* they were looking to build a vaccine factory or manufacture synthetic insulin, right?

Why are people so against vaccines?


Why did everyone say it was such a bad idea to sell F-14's to Iran back in the 1970's? I mean *we* have F-14's, right?
 
Just keep in mind that the document you're basing your decision on is put out by Nuclear Energy Agency. I've previously posted sources with dramatically different conclusions.
You mean the International Energy Agency? That's the agency that published the document I was "basing my decision on".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Energy_Agency

I don't see any signs that they're the evil, lying, nuclear conspiracy that you're on about. Where did you leap to this conclusion?

Because they happened to disagree with your nuclear-fearing friends?

Tell me, I disagree with those same people. Am I a "disinfo agent", paid by the eeeeevil Nuclear companies to keep "the man" down?

And by the way, peak is all about energy when you need it. That's why it's so expensive.
Yeah yeah, blah blah, heard it all before. I still contend that heaters in the wintertime at places up north do not correspond with peak. You have yet to refute this.
 
I don't understand why some people are so against Nuclear Power. It seems like every time some country wants to join the Nuclear club, the people that already have nuclear power want to stop them. That doesn't seem fair at all.

our observations about the threat nuclear energy poses to peace are obviously very well placed, clearly we cannot allow other countries to have thermal nuclear fission reactors running on low enrichment fuel...

but have you considered joining in any campaigns against weapons of mass destruction?

fireidiot.jpg
 
You mean the International Energy Agency? That's the agency that published the document I was "basing my decision on".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna..._Energy_Agency

I don't see any signs that they're the evil, lying, nuclear conspiracy that you're on about. Where did you leap to this conclusion?

Because they happened to disagree with your nuclear-fearing friends?

Tell me, I disagree with those same people. Am I a "disinfo agent", paid by the eeeeevil Nuclear companies to keep "the man" down?

Look at the title page of the document. Two agencies are listed. The International Energy Agency and the Nuclear Energy Agency.

I'm only suggesting that people in the nuclear industry are predisposed to thinking it's a good idea. No conspiracy or bad intent implied.
 
Look at the title page of the document. Two agencies are listed. The International Energy Agency and the Nuclear Energy Agency.

I'm only suggesting that people in the nuclear industry are predisposed to thinking it's a good idea. No conspiracy or bad intent implied.
So, "predisposed"... now, your sources say that nuclear is DEFINITELY not a good idea.

This well-researched paper that seems to fairly and accurately compare costs, that's published by the IEA and NEA (sure, you can act like they're the same, but that's going back into conspiracy talk)... apparently, they published this big report where they must have left out lots of data. Lots and lots of data, right? After all, to come to such a radical conclusion that, yes, nuclear might actually be cost-effective when your sources say that it DEFINITELY isn't, requires a lot of information to have been left out. This is a huge gap here.

Either you're claiming that they're purposefully majorly lying (both the IEA and NEA), which goes back into conspiracy talk. Or you're acting like these fine engineers and research scientists can't get anything right. In which case, it looks like they're all a bunch of harvard drop-outs that don't know a thing about economics, research and nuclear engineering, even though that's their job, right?

And obviously, the IEA must be just as incompotent, either that or their name is just on it for show. But they didn't do anything with the document, they're all in the pockets of the eeeeeevil nuclear conspiracy, right?

The IEA is not nuclear-based. They co-wrote the report. Saying that this report was entirely made by nuclear companies is being dishonest to the extreme.

But as some posters have said here, what's wrong with a little bit of dishonesty if you want to push your side, neh?


I just love this mindset. It's the same one the 9/11 Twoofers use. As soon as an engineer comes up that actually knows what they're talking about, and demonstrate evidence that what they say is correct, then they're a disinfo agent that is using data from the eeeeevil gubmint.

Actually, can you show any evidence that the NEA AND the IEA has published false reports before? You can speculate that they are dishonest, but without proof, I can't assume that they are. Of course, I suppose I could go by your word, and then assume that all of the sources you tout about are exemplar examples of honesty, but... sorry. This kind of thing has to work both ways.
 
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The nuke industry would not exist without government subsidies. If it's so great, why does it need to be subsidised?
 
In stark contrast, Wind Power is a friggin battleground it is so lucrative. Do you know how much money each turbine makes in a year?
 
The nuke industry would not exist without government subsidies. If it's so great, why does it need to be subsidised?
Reckon they could compete without subsidies if coal wasn't subsidies? LOL

Meanwhile coalitions are being formed so no one member of the has to take the brunt of possible public outcries when they start building.
Designs are being preapproved to remove the cost of individual plant approvals. Nuclear is on the way.
 
So, "predisposed"... now, your sources say that nuclear is DEFINITELY not a good idea.

This well-researched paper that seems to fairly and accurately compare costs, that's published by the IEA and NEA (sure, you can act like they're the same, but that's going back into conspiracy talk)... apparently, they published this big report where they must have left out lots of data. Lots and lots of data, right? After all, to come to such a radical conclusion that, yes, nuclear might actually be cost-effective when your sources say that it DEFINITELY isn't, requires a lot of information to have been left out. This is a huge gap here.

Either you're claiming that they're purposefully majorly lying (both the IEA and NEA), which goes back into conspiracy talk. Or you're acting like these fine engineers and research scientists can't get anything right. In which case, it looks like they're all a bunch of harvard drop-outs that don't know a thing about economics, research and nuclear engineering, even though that's their job, right?

And obviously, the IEA must be just as incompotent, either that or their name is just on it for show. But they didn't do anything with the document, they're all in the pockets of the eeeeeevil nuclear conspiracy, right?

The IEA is not nuclear-based. They co-wrote the report. Saying that this report was entirely made by nuclear companies is being dishonest to the extreme.

But as some posters have said here, what's wrong with a little bit of dishonesty if you want to push your side, neh?


I just love this mindset. It's the same one the 9/11 Twoofers use. As soon as an engineer comes up that actually knows what they're talking about, and demonstrate evidence that what they say is correct, then they're a disinfo agent that is using data from the eeeeevil gubmint.

Actually, can you show any evidence that the NEA AND the IEA has published false reports before? You can speculate that they are dishonest, but without proof, I can't assume that they are. Of course, I suppose I could go by your word, and then assume that all of the sources you tout about are exemplar examples of honesty, but... sorry. This kind of thing has to work both ways.
You're overstating what I said.

The Energy Watch Group does careful work too. And their reports are devoid of hysteria and knee-jerk presumptions too. But when Schneibster pointed out that many of their authors get incomes from renewables, I ceased to list them as an unbiased source.

I don't even assume the European environmental agency is unbiased, though they pooh pooh nuclear too. If nuclear is such a great environmental option, someone there should have figured it out. But they're consistently anti-nuclear so I don't use them for this forum. The Pembina Institute argues against nuclear primarily on the grounds of cost. The only place that the dangers of nuclear even come up in their report is when discussing the costs of decommissioning and disposal. Energy Probe tends to favour market liberalization with true cost accounting. They have pointed out the many aspects of nuclear that are very difficult to quantify, but also point out that even if you pick on the quantifiable ones, nuclear comes out more expensive than other options.

If the IEA wanted a truly unbiased report, they should have collaborated with a renewables group as well as the NEA.

Here's a report from a Swiss parliamentarian that accuses the IEA of systematic bias towards fossil fuels and nuclear power.

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/sustainability/Renewables2004Rechsteiner.pdf
 
As wild hypotheticals go, that's actually a lot more plausible than the nuclear vision.

You know, you could find a more subtle way to completely ignore everything that's been said in this thread.

You don't have to overcome reasonable public fears about the safety of mom-and-pop nuclear manufacturing, which is going to be a hard sell, my friend.

So we shouldn't go for nuclear because people fear it ?

For better or for worse, nuclear power has many more regulatory implications. And then you'd have to develop the mines to fuel the things, which isn't an issue with wind.

Of course it isn't, because wind isn't a viable solution.

Then we retrofit all houses so that in order to "God forbid" not enable them to stand without an air conditioner, they remain leaky energy-hogs now heated even less efficiently by electrical sources.

I hope you have fun in your personal, cave-man, ideal civilisation.

We need to convert all ocean ships, too, to nuclear, all the trucks on the road, which will be more challenging than cars and so on. How do you propose to alter cement and steel production?

Of course, if we made it a national priority, or rather a global priority, to go nuclear in ten years and converted massive resources to the cause, we could maybe make it happen, though I think there are reasonable assessments that indicate that even from a fuel perspective, we wouldn't make it.

You know, your arguments here, such as they are, are ALSO arguments against conservation, wind and solar power.

The reason I didn't propose a massive crank-out of wind turbines is simply that I know that conservation is more economical than that kind of industrial conversion.

Killing people is always more economical than feeding them, you're right.

So let's stop with the pipe-dreams. In real world economics, this isn't going to happen.

:i:
 
Schneibster, note that I'm not saying which conclusions are correct. There are sources that say both.

Nice backtracking.

It goes on to explain why this is irrelevant for long-term forecasting. It does this very well, and is persuasive.

Of course it is. You were convinced before reading it.

We're going to have to do a lot of things simultaneously, I know.

What part of "impossible" don't you understand ?
 
The nuke industry would not exist without government subsidies. If it's so great, why does it need to be subsidised?

OH! You're so right! Subsidies... I never even thought of that! Nuclear has subsidies, so therefore all of the research, record keeping, and evidence MUST BE WRONG as to the price comparisons!

I mean, solar power would NEVER be subsidized!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Natio...bsidy-for-homes/2007/05/08/1178390288210.html <--- obviously a link made by the evil nuclear scientists!

And wind energy... wind energy makes TONS of money, and thus needs NO subsidies at all!

http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/Subsidy.pdf <--- MORE EVIL NUCLEAR SCIENTIST GIBBERISH! Apparently, the American Wind Energy Association is in with them!

AWEA said:
During the year 2003 alone, federal energy subsidies
ranged from $37 billion to $64 billion, according to a study
prepared for the National Commission on Energy Policy.
Wind energy accounted for less than 1% of the total.2

And coal... coal is the one that's really used today, so therefore that shouldn't be subsidized at all! Oh, the links that I dug up by those evil nuclear scientists are so numerous, do you really want me to post them all? I can only describe the horror of their lies...

And hydroelectric is the safest, most economic source in the planet! I mean, yeah, it submerges trees underwater, but it's water! The thing that we drink to survive, so therefore it's perfectly green pollution!

And SURELY, hydroelectric power doesn't need subsidies at all, being that great source that it is!

http://www.mof.go.jp/english/zaito/zaito2001e-exv/33.pdf

OH THOSE EVIL NUCLEAR LIARS! They're in everything!

If only we knew! If only we knew! Nuclear power requires subsidies, unlike any other source of energy source, suggested or existing! Your logic astounds me, and I crumple to my knees and beg your forgiveness for my silliness.

Please, forgive this man for thinking things such as evidence, expertise, and scientific reports might actually mean something! With one line, complete with lack of any actual data, evidence, or scientific or economic articles, you have entirely eradicated the evil nuclear conspiracy from the comfort of your computer room! Congratulations!

Robinson said:
In stark contrast, Wind Power is a friggin battleground it is so lucrative. Do you know how much money each turbine makes in a year?
Teach me, oh master! Show me the figures!
 
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