How were WTC core columns separated at the weld planes?

[Max Photon]

Score the core?

Major Tom,

What would explosively cut box columns look like vs. gravity driven collapse box columns?

Do you understand that in a real CD that columns are pre weakened?

How do they pre weaken these columns, and why do they do it?

What differences would you expect to see between the two?

Given what the honest answers are to the questions above, how would you come to the conclusion that the collapse of the buildings were do to CDs?

Drs. Res,

I don't believe anyone in this thread is discussing the possibility of core columns being explosively CUT.

This thread is exploring what forces separated the core columns at the weld planes.

The primary forces are probably lateral impulses from still-attached members, or collisions from unattached members.

A question being explored is whether explosives were placed near the weld planes, not to cut the steel, but to simply break the welds.

(I happen to think not, but I certainly want to explore the possibility.)

Major Tom has compiled photographic evidence from the FEMA photos of core column ends that can serve as points of discussion.


Something to note...

Because the towers had so much potential energy, anytime one considers controlled-demolition, remember that demolition planners - who usually seek to minimize catalysts used - may have only needed to actively break 1/100th, say, of the core columns, to ENSURE a completed demolition. Maybe even fewer. Maybe none! Maybe just getting the perimeter to yield was sufficient to get the towers moving, and let gravity do the rest.


Breaking glass only requires differential weakening, using a light score.


Max

* * *

 

[Gravy]

Major Tom has compiled photographic evidence from the FEMA photos of core column ends that can serve as points of discussion.

No, Major Tom has reproduced photos that we've seen ad nauseum. We are not surprised by what they show. Major Tom apparently thinks the photos show something amiss, but he cannot articulate what or why. He isn't even aware of the other photographic evidence that exists. Since he refuses to consult experts, he has wasted part of his life filling his website with laughably amateurish "analysis." This is not a "discussion," Max. It's just another stage for you and Major Tom to act out your fantasies. Grow up.

 

[Swing Dangler]

He hasn't been able to produce the photos, has he?

And he won't. This was my guarantee.

I suspect that he can't produce them as they don't exist.

You provide a noisy backdrop, nothing more.

I would have to agree to this assessment.

Drs Res, the pre-weakening is being discussed here. First we actually look at a representative sample of the column ends in question, then we discuss them.

It appears they are separated at the welds, indeed, along with the strong characteristic of rust along the separation points. Does gravity produce rust along weld lines completely separate from the rest of the steel beam?

Please stay tuned as we discuss each of these factors in detail, while, of course, sticking to the subject originally posted in this thread.

Indeed. Move the topic along please, Major and Max.

 

[beachnut]

It appears they are separated at the welds, indeed, along with the strong characteristic of rust along the separation points. Does gravity produce rust along weld lines completely separate from the rest of the steel beam?

Indeed. Move the topic along please, Major and Max.

We need an expert to support the 9/11 insane ideas of MajorTom and MaxPhoton. Please jump in and try to clean up the insanity of their ideas on 9/11. Are you able to make a rational statement about their stuff? Not yet, your rust is funny stuff, no facts, just questions. At least you are holding up the truth banner of, JAQ.

 

[DGM]

Major Tom Says

Multiple angles must be discussed, analyzed and connected to show proof of controlled demolition as opposed to gravity-driven collapse. Angles such as:

This was done 6 years ago by people on site. How can you think that you can do a better job with pictures? Were they incompetent? You have not addressed this simple question. Why?

 

[Swing Dangler]

We need an expert to support the 9/11 insane ideas of MajorTom and MaxPhoton. Please jump in and try to clean up the insanity of their ideas on 9/11. Are you able to make a rational statement about their stuff? Not yet, your rust is funny stuff, no facts, just questions. At least you are holding up the truth banner of, JAQ.

I would encourage you to visit Max Photon's site to see where he is going with this. Quite informative and humorous.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation other than rust? Spray paint, perhaps?

 

[beachnut]

lol

I would encourage you to visit Max Photon's site to see where he is going with this. Quite informative and humorous.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation other than rust? Spray paint, perhaps?

His entire web site is full of insane ideas (almost as bad as you web site, but you are a generalist with nut case ideas on 9/11, whereas MaxPhoton is a specialist with his fine madness, lol). Your posts are a reflection of your tendencies to be a truther.

Education could cure terminal stupidity.

 

[rwguinn]

I would encourage you to visit Max Photon's site to see where he is going with this. Quite informative and humorous.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation other than rust? Spray paint, perhaps?

Surface Rust often appears in proximity to welds which are simply tack welds to position members, and which are not intended to carry any load.

 

[rwguinn]

IT appears that the quote function is really hosed today..
or it is possible that somebody has typed over something...
ETA:
It started with the "Swing Dangler"--he's trying to do us in via faulty quote functions! Its a conspiracy, I tells ya!

 

[pomeroo]

I would encourage you to visit Max Photon's site to see where he is going with this. Quite informative and humorous.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation other than rust? Spray paint, perhaps?

I would encourage both you and the dull-witted Max Photon to make an attempt to read Apathoid's paper. Our pseudo-scientist looks ridiculous darting from thread to thread ignoring devastating criticisms of his nonsense. You look ridiculous all the time.

 

[Max Photon]

Hot rust.

Surface Rust often appears in proximity to welds which are simply tack welds to position members, and which are not intended to carry any load.

I think rwguinn is trying to say that surface rust often appears where steel has been heated.


Max

* * *

 

[Major_Tom]

Max, you wrote

A question being explored is whether explosives were placed near the weld planes, not to cut the steel, but to simply break the welds.

(I happen to think not, but I certainly want to explore the possibility.)

As you know, studying the movement of the core is much different from studying the perimeter as the perimeter is visible while the core is hidden. We have some indirect methods for seeing actions within the core. I mentioned 4 of these methods before:

1) Study of the core box columns in the rubble (under discussion).

2) Study of the first and most visible major rows of lateral ejections witnessed just after "collapse initiation" in both of the twin towers, but before the blanket of cement dust enveloped the "collapse wave".

3) A detailed study of the "spire" seen still standing after the majority of each building had completely collapsed, particularly in the North Tower. Each visible standing core column seen in the North Tower spire can be identified. It is fascinating to see what columns remained standing in the North Tower spire. Therefore, this spire gives us very unique information as to how and in what order core columns "gave way".

4) A detailed study of lateral ejections seen under the blanket of falling cement dust, well ahead of the "collapse wave". Each lateral ejection can be precisely located and, using the blueprints of the North Tower, we can compare lateral ejections with the layout and structural supports known to exist within those locations.

Please consider #2 above.

In the following video link we can see 2 major rows of "dust ejections" protruding from the South Tower just after the moment of "collapse initiation".

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fWi1fmxCGAw

These first 2 rows of the most powerful ejections visible appear to be separated by 3 or 4 floors. This is obviously contradictory to the suggestion that one floor fell upon the one below, and those 2 fell on the one below that and so on.

How would your comment quoted above be consistent with this clear initial 2 rows of powerful ejections being separated by 3 or 4 floors?

And posing the same question to many other readers who seem to believe in notions like "progressive collapse" and floors taking out lower floors one by one, how can you explain this phenomenon?

 

[DGM]

These first 2 rows of the most powerful ejections visible appear to be separated by 3 or 4 floors. This is obviously contradictory to the suggestion that one floor fell upon the one below, and those 2 fell on the one below that and so on.

Major Tom;
I know I shouldn't tell you this secret but I think you can handle it. THE TOWERS WERE FULL OF AIR.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Deleted post.

 

[Major_Tom]

A simplified version of my last post for DGM:

See video

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fWi1fmxCGAw

First 2 most powerful horizontal rows of dust ejections. Look.

Separated by 3 or 4 floors. Obviously not floor by floor ejections.

How explain 3 or 4 floor separation?

 

[funk de fino]

A simplified version of my last post for DGM:

See video

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fWi1fmxCGAw

First 2 most powerful horizontal rows of dust ejections. Look.

Separated by 3 or 4 floors. Obviously not floor by floor ejections.

How explain 3 or 4 floor separation?

Why should they be uniform floor by floor especially in the early stage?

You're not thinking about how air pressure acts in the building are you?

What do you think cause the first two "dust" ejections?

 

[MRC_Hans]

A simplified version of my last post for DGM:

See video

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=fWi1fmxCGAw

First 2 most powerful horizontal rows of dust ejections. Look.

Separated by 3 or 4 floors. Obviously not floor by floor ejections.

How explain 3 or 4 floor separation?

And?

So, maybe, especially as the heavily damaged area around the impact zone gave way, several floors were involved simultaneously. In fact, pictures of the wall being pulled inwards shortly prior to the collapse show that several floors were involved in this.

Who knows, maybe there were more instances like this. Remember, energy does not disappear: Every time the falling mass hit a new floor, the impact forces were transmitted downwards in the building. It is not inconceivable that a floor below the actual collapse zone might have had some weakness that made it give way prematurely.

Finally, as mentioned, enourmous amounts of air had to be displaced as the building collapsed. This air was pressed to the sides, upwards and downwards. Ahead of the collapse zone there will have been a wave of air pressed through every conceivable opening and channel from the floors above. Some of the videos show how this air gets expelled in several places farther down the building, when the odd window gives away under the mounting pressure. Occasionally, the pressure rise will have been so steep that most of the windows in an entire floor will have exploded outwards, throwing out clouds of dust and debris.

Hans

 

[Swing Dangler]

Some of the videos show how this air gets expelled in several places farther down the building, when the odd window gives away under the mounting pressure. Occasionally, the pressure rise will have been so steep that most of the windows in an entire floor will have exploded outwards, throwing out clouds of dust and debris.

That is what I like to call the "Magic Air Theory" where air decides to skip some floors and windows only to eject debris several floors down and through certain windows only well ahead of the collapse zone on multiple sides of the building. Quite amazing isn't it?!

 

[Dave Rogers]

These first 2 rows of the most powerful ejections visible appear to be separated by 3 or 4 floors. This is obviously contradictory to the suggestion that one floor fell upon the one below, and those 2 fell on the one below that and so on.

How would your comment quoted above be consistent with this clear initial 2 rows of powerful ejections being separated by 3 or 4 floors?

And posing the same question to many other readers who seem to believe in notions like "progressive collapse" and floors taking out lower floors one by one, how can you explain this phenomenon?

Because of the angle of the shot we can't see where the aircraft impact hole is in relation to the level of collapse initiation. Different floors in this region will access different sized regions of the hole from that impact, which will affect the pressurisation of those spaces differently as the collapse progresses. I don't know exactly where the collapse started, but it's quite conceivable that the intermediate floors were just better vented by the impact hole and hence didn't pressurise as fast as the floors above and below them. As a result you might well see the initial ejections from floors more widely separated, and any subsequent ejections from the floors in between would be completely obscured by the dust clouds that had already formed. Another possible explanation might be that the fires were uneven between different floors and hence window breakage varied from floor to floor; it's quite clear from the lateral variations in ejecta volume that the ejections are from weaker parts of the structure, and the random nature of fire damage means that the weakening is randomly distributed.

All in all, you're trying to read something into apparent patterns forming in a fundamentally chaotic situation, which is a highly misleading approach. And ask yourself this, honestly: if you had seen ejections from each floor in turn in a regular sequence, as you're suggesting should have happened in a gravitational collapse, wouldn't you now be pointing to the orderly nature of that hypothetical collapse as evidence in itself of a precisely timed sequence of demolition charges?

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

That is what I like to call the "Magic Air Theory" where air decides to skip some floors and windows only to eject debris several floors down and through certain windows only well ahead of the collapse zone on multiple sides of the building. Quite amazing isn't it?!

Not nearly as amazing as the "Magic Explosives Theory", where explosions in parts of the towers where the collapse didn't start and were in fact the last parts of the towers to collapse, in some cases over an hour before the start of the collapse, were nevertheless the cause of that collapse.

Dave