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Former conspiracy believer here

I must admit I had assumed that US air defences would have figured for this kind of thing more.
First question you should ask yourself: what is the basis for this assumption of yours?

For forty years, U.S. airspace defence was predicated upon the idea of stopping aircraft outside of U.S. airspace from penetrating into it. Primarily, shooting down Soviet bombers during WWIII. That was the main mission.

Large organizations do not change directions easily. There's a huge amount of bureaucratic inertia which keeps things moving in the same direction they had been moving already. Also, read some military history. You'll find many examples of militaries being caught wholly unprepared for new ways of waging a conflict.
 
At short notice? Yes. There's no such thing as 100% protection. A peace-time domestic-originating threat to the Capitol, from the air, was not considered likely. The cost of maintaining protection for such a highly unlikely threat would be enormous. The military does not have endless funds.




Until 0903 no one on the ground had any idea the US was facing a coordinated terrorist attack. At that time all strikes had been against New York. It was not until 0921 that the military or FAA had any notion that Washington DC might be a target.




NORAD were not notified of the hijacking of UA175 until 0903:






The United States military's power is in force projection - their ability to bring military power to any corner of the globe within a matter of days. Most of their operational military assets are focused on this role - carrier task groups, Marine expeditionary forces, the 82nd Airborne, special operations, and so forth.

NORAD has two roles - a relatively minor peace time role and a much more extensive role in the event of a full scale attack. The 9/11 attacks fell between these two - a peace time, domestic originated, small scale attack. NORAD were not designed to deal with that sort of threat, and were not capable of dealing with it.

As for "vital assets", I would say the US military's most vital assets are their carrier battle groups, all of which are protected 24/7 by a fighter CAP. None of the US military's major commands are based at the Pentagon.





I don't think you understand the impossibility of what you're expecting to have happened. NORAD had two pairs of fighters to cover the entire north east sea board. Their role in hijackings was strictly limited to escort and observation duties.

I don't know where your 48 minutes comes from, but 0921 was the first time NORAD had any awareness that Washington DC might be a target. That's not 48 minutes warning, that's 16 minutes warning. NORAD duties required aircraft to be airbourne 15 minutes after a scramble was issued. Find me a fighter that can fly from Langley to Washington DC, locate and intercept a low-level airliner travelling at 400MPH, ascertain that airliner has hostile intent, engage the airliner and shoot it down, all in 60 seconds, and you may have a point.





In my view you're letting you Hollywood-informed expectations cloud your understanding of how the real world operates.




It was Congress that clipped NORAD's wings.




NORAD had five fighters in the air less than an hour after they knew something was happening. By two hours, there were CAPs over New York City and Washington DC with as many as a dozen fighters airbourne.

By mid afternoon NORAD had 300 fighters in the air supported by AWACS and tankers, had implemented a modified version of the wartime SCATANA Plan, and had CAPs over every major US city.

I don't think you appreciate just how phenomenal an achievement that was.





Nonsense. This Cessna penetrated Soviet airspace from outside. The aircraft on 9/11 didn't even have to do that. Secondly, the Russians protected their airspace much more harshly than the US does. Simply compare the number of commercial airliners the Russians have shot down for entering their airspace unannounced with the number the US has shot down.





The vast majority of the fighters based around the US are for training purposes or for defending the USA in the event of a full scale attack. During peace, when there's no threat of an air attack, those defenses are not on standby, because frankly maintaining them on standby is flat out impossible. Instead a skeleton crew of fourteen fighters was maintained at seven bases around the perimeter of the contiguous USA, tasked primarily with intercepting drug smugglers trying to sneak through the ADIZ down near Florida, and occasionally popping up to investigate commercial airliners coming from overseas who had suffered radio or transponder failures.

That's all they were there to do. That has always been NORAD's mission, for over fifty years.

You don't seem to appreciate the logistical difficulty of maintaining the sort of defenses you expect. I suggest you do some reading up on Operation Noble Eagle, and in particular the enormous strain this put on the part time pilots and ground crew of the Air National Guard.

It's simply not feasible. No country in the world can maintain what you expect during peace time.

-Gumboot

Okay.

Kudos.

Once again, well argued, well written and very polite to silly old me. But I still disagree. And I suspect that I always will--I'll explain that at the end.

The 48 minutes comes from the first plane striking at 8:46 AM Eastern Time--It was a suspected hi-jack before that time and the Pentagon getting hit around 9:30 AM. I forget the exact time that the building was struck. Is it impossible to get something resembling a defense up in that amount of time? If it is, I think we're living on borrowed time in this land of ours.

Secondly,
I'd be willing to bet if you flew a large jet into a building in a city in the former Soviet Union, a woodpecker would not be able to land in Red Square shortly thereafter. You're point about the Cessna is a non-starter; a totally different matter than what we are speaking of here.

Explanation: Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are totaly on point about how everything worked just like it was designed to work that morning. Okay. Who designed it? Who designed a system by which a plane is hi-jacked, crashed into a building, followed by another plane crashing into another building on world-wide television and the response at the nation's capitol is to not put a single jet over the airspace? The response between WTC 1 and WTC 2 getting hit was apparently thinking that Washington was not going to be hit. Very well. But what would it have hurt to send a few aircraft up to simply be on patrol just in case...I stringently disagree that the seat of our government is not a vital asset. If I stated the "military's" most vital asset is the Pentagon, I was mistaken.

The bottom line is that someone somewhere is responsible for either giving the wrong orders or setting up a system that didn't protect a single target. And to the best of my knowledge, that person has not been held accountable.
 
Again, let me state that I'm not under the wrong impression that someone ordered Maverick and Goose to stand down. It was pure chaos that morning and the unthinkable was taking place.
 
The bottom line is that someone somewhere is responsible for either giving the wrong orders or setting up a system that didn't protect a single target. And to the best of my knowledge, that person has not been held accountable.

So, what you're saying is you're not MIHOP or LIHOP but "Why didn't *someone* get fired for this happening on their watch?"

If so.. I agree with you.
 
So, what you're saying is you're not MIHOP or LIHOP but "Why didn't *someone* get fired for this happening on their watch?"

If so.. I agree with you.

Not if they followed procedures. The people who set up the system may be long retired or dead, and it was a different scenario than what was considered "normal."
 
The bottom line is that someone somewhere is responsible for either giving the wrong orders or setting up a system that didn't protect a single target. And to the best of my knowledge, that person has not been held accountable.

So, what you're saying is you're not MIHOP or LIHOP but "Why didn't *someone* get fired for this happening on their watch?"

If so.. I agree with you.

Well, I tend to think that it was the system that was in place, which was not designed for this sort of contingency. I don't think it's the fault of the people at the command posts that morning, not the pilots, not the ATC. And really, it's not very productive after the fact to go back and assign blame, whether it's to congress, or the joint chiefs, the FAA, or even the intelligence community. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone was criminally negligent or didn't do what they were supposed to do.

What we ought to do, moving forward, is identify the weaknesses in the system we had implemented, and work to address those problems, rather than wasting resources (time, money) and diverting attention to playing the blame game and punishing people. (It's inevitably a scapegoat in the end, anyway.) And, I think that that's what we have been doing for the most part, when it comes to things like the NIST report, and things like that. (Many consiracy theorists can't seem to comprehend that the main purpose of that document is to improve building codes to promote safer building design in the future.)
 
The bottom line is that someone somewhere is responsible for either giving the wrong orders or setting up a system that didn't protect a single target. And to the best of my knowledge, that person has not been held accountable.
Wrong again.

I think you missed the fact we were ready to protect something in a way never before planned. You would be hard pressed to do the same. As you mock the system, the system worked much better than you are able to understand the system.
 
Originally Posted by RedIbis
I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

SInce when do twoofers need anybody to help them look dumb? They do a wonderful job of that without any outside assistance.
 
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I think that the general consensus is that the state of US air defence on that day was normal for that time, yes. The knowledge that Payne Stewart's private jet took 80 minutes to intercept was available to anyone prepared to look through newspaper archives, and could have served as an indication as to how long the hijackers might get before interception themselves. And as I said, four hijacked airliners shot down by NORAD is still a success, albeit a smaller one.

Hi Dave,

Could you explain to me what you mean in the last sentence? Are you saying that it would still have been a success for the terrorists?

Dave said:
(1) Yes to the former but quite possibly no to the latter.
(2) His comments may have been mistranslated or simplified, he may have considered the effects of the building contents.
(3) He may have been spinning the results after the fact.

Do you know when he said it? I'd be interested to check it out. It seems a bizarre thing to say.



Dave said:
Overall, I'm just pointing out that these were not, to use the language of some truthers, "cave-dwellers", but educated and intelligent people who were quite capable of planning four co-ordinated hijacks.

For sure

Nick
 
...
You don't need to control everything to control the world. In fact controlling absolutely everything is counter-productive. You just need to know where the big levers are, the big fulcrums, the places where, if you control that, you've have the majority say.

Ahh the Havelock Vetinari school of political manipulation. It works in fiction, but I believe that the real world is a bit too complex for any small group of people to have complete control of all of these levers. I think any group of power hungry individuals is going to spend most of its energy on internal power struggles.

With the World Bank and IMF I don't think it's so much about profit. There's only so much money you can usefully have. Check out some of the multitude of non-CT, humanitarian and local on-the-ground sources on the activities of these orgs. Doesn't their agenda look like covert globalisation?
...
Nick

I think there are probably some corrupt people and governments that have used these organisations over the years for their own ends to the detriment of the people the IMF and WB were intended to serve, but that's what some people will always do (or at least try).
To say that all that equals a NWO hellbent on an evil agenda of a One World Government destined to enslave us all seems a bit, well, kooky in my book. I would have thought a global Gov. might be the only way to rein in some of those nasty multi-national corporations who seem to be having a bit of a party at everyone else's expense at the moment.

To summarise:
Would a world government necessarily be all that bad? It works OK in Star Trek...:duck:
 
Hi Dave,

Could you explain to me what you mean in the last sentence? Are you saying that it would still have been a success for the terrorists?


Your question is to Dave. But here's how I see it:

Al Qaeda: "Wonderful. Not only did we destroy four planes on the same day, we made the U.S. government do it for us! The public will be shocked that the U.S. government shot down not one, but four planes with their own citizens on board and will have their heads for not trying to negotiate first. Now, the next time we run one of these operations in the U.S., the government will be falling over itself trying to decide what to do while we blow up the oil tanker in port, take hostages in a theater, etc."

On a separate point. I do not understand what sort of detailed "intelligence" one would need to run an operation like 9/11. As mentioned above, the hard part would be rounding up the attackers. If you have the guys willing to commit suicide (and it really only need be the pilots who have to know), the operation part of things would be easy. Check plane schedules. Walk through a couple dry runs separately to make sure you can get the box cutters on the planes at different airports. Then go.

The original plan may have been to try and hit the four targets. But, as noted in the first paragraph, merely seizing the four planes while airborne would count as success.
 
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Ahh the Havelock Vetinari school of political manipulation. It works in fiction, but I believe that the real world is a bit too complex for any small group of people to have complete control of all of these levers. I think any group of power hungry individuals is going to spend most of its energy on internal power struggles.
Exactly. The further up the food chain you get the MORE cutthroat it becomes. It absolutely goes against their very nature to reach a certain level of success and then be told "OK, now you're part of the NWO and we're all working together to promote a single worldview."

But since I'd imagine very few twoofers have spent time around any in social settings, I can understand their blissful ignorance about successful business folk/politicians/lawmakers/non-crazy people. :p
 
Corporations get greedy.
A statement no-one here will contest.

Free market principles get lost, for sure.
Corporations don't run on free market principles, anyway.

But there are deeper things than this that are concerning here. Increasing evidence that the mass media is under a degree of centralised control, viz seemingly separate media orgs all kowtowing to a covert party line when required.
Evidence?

The covert and systematic destruction of a myriad older cultures across Africa and Latin America by the World Bank and IMF, countries progressively drawn into one central global trade network under a high degree of centralised control.
That doesn't even make sense. You want two central global trade networks?

Oh, and evidence?

The continued maintenance of an "us and them" Western culture with orchestrated hate figures like Russians or terrorists, sustained by the media and keeping people busy with some largely fictitious enemy out there, rather than examining what's going on at the apex of their own country or culture.
Uh, Nick, newsflash: Russia really exists. The Soviet Union (as it was then) really did invade, occupy, and pretty much destroy Eastern Europe. They also really did kill tens of millions of their own people.

And without giving Senator McCarthy too much credit, there really were Soviet spies in high places in the US.

And terrorists? Also exist.

The bombardment of people with short term pharmaceutical solutions to their increased feelings of social and cultural estrangement, and the systematic blockading of effective long-term treatments.
Yeah, them buggers dropped another valium bomb on my neighbourhood just last week!

What are you talking about?

The covert maintenance of an utterly ineffective illicit drug control policy by USG, ensuring people stay addicted whilst effective treatment strategies are not examined, and the CIA fund covert strategic ops with the cash they make from drug-running.
Covert?! There's nothing covert about the utterly ineffective illicit drug control policy of the US government (and of many other governments too).

It's hard to prove.
Don't worry so much about proof. Start with evidence.

I wouldn't say for a second otherwise. But the patterns of activity in key social and political areas point to a covert centralised agenda being progressively pursued by an organised group largely hidden from the public gaze.
Patterns. Point. Covert. Agenda. Pursued. Hidden.

See also: Confirmation bias.

Yes, we're all humans. But people with high psychological damage often adopt overtly dualistic "us and them" worldviews simply to cope with pain and fear.
Yes, Nick?

The feeling of control, the feeling of power over others ameliorates inner feeings of weakness and the need for vulnerability. History has shown that people can do some pretty evil **** to each other once they've become disaffected, de-empathised, once they identify one group as "us" and another as "them."
Certainly. As I noted, the Soviets killed tens of millions of their own people.

False flag ops to keep the Western public focussed on exterior hate-figures and dramas are nothing new. Vietnam, for example.
Vietnam really exists too, Nick.

It's a pay-off for people down the line, arms manufacturers, but mostly it's to keep people locked into fear. To keep them malleable, and flexible to your will. To keep them voting for their own incarceration with Patriot Act type legislation.
Evidence?

The CIA have so many crime and drug contacts from decades of dodgy ops they could have set up a terrorist cell in Afghanistan easy.
Perhaps. But did they?

You create cell structure at each layer of the operation. Everyone not at the top on the terrorist cell believes they are going to die for Allah. At the top of the cell, the head man knows the deal and connects back with his contact in the West. Simultaneously you plan the op and feed info back to your man in Afghan. If you need to draw fire a little on the day with some military exercises to keep your own guys busy, then you can do that too. Very few people need know. CIA have for years been operating with covert agendas and cell structure, need-to-know policies.
Which is nothing but speculation, unless you have this thing called evidence.

It's not about one country's dominance over another. It's about global control of people and extending that control...aggressively, where needed.
And who is globally controlling whom here, Nick?
 
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I must admit I had assumed that US air defences would have figured for this kind of thing more.


Hmm... isn't this exactly how my forefathers managed such success against the British Army some 200 years ago; using tactics that the opposition weren't trained to combat? And roughly 30 years ago, didn't America have problems in Vietnam for much the same reason?

This sort of thing doesn't seem unprecedented. I'm honestly baffled by your statement.
 
It's very simple:

1. It is physically impossible to stop every possible threat. I could take my car, right now, and drive it into the glass enclosure of my local shopping mall, where dozens of people are currently eating food from the food court. I could run over four or five people, then exit the vehicle and shoot two dozen more. Would you then ask why the mall didn't have a concrete wall to stop my truck? And why all shoppers weren't issued bullet proof vests?

Of course not. Trying to protect against every possible attack is an act of futile insanity. Which leads us to...

2. With #1 in mind, the entire concept of terrorism is that you simply sit back and see what your enemy is not protecting against. If airline security had been top-notch in 2001 (and why would it be, there hadn't been a hijacking in many years) then they would simply have picked another target.

A bomb belt in the Mall of America;
Some poison dumped in a reservoir;

Whatever the imagination of a well-funded, EXTREMELY motivated group can dream up. There are infinite possibilities. We could devote every dollar of the American treasury to protecting against terrorism, we could completely shut down all recreation, transportation and commerce, and we still couldn't protect against every imaginable attack. It's ludicrous to come back AFTER an attack that NONE of you anticipated, and complain that it was obvious it was going to happen. It wasn't.

Get over it. Resources aren't infinite, and infringements on citizen's freedom and convenience will only be tolerated so far. No government can protect us completely, and failure to do so is NOT evidence of incompetence on anyone's part.
 
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Once again, well argued, well written and very polite to silly old me. But I still disagree. And I suspect that I always will--I'll explain that at the end.


I have no problem taking the time to discuss matters with someone who is polite, respectful, and appears to read what I have written. So thank you too. :)


The 48 minutes comes from the first plane striking at 8:46 AM Eastern Time--It was a suspected hi-jack before that time and the Pentagon getting hit around 9:30 AM. I forget the exact time that the building was struck. Is it impossible to get something resembling a defense up in that amount of time? If it is, I think we're living on borrowed time in this land of ours.

Explanation: Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are totaly on point about how everything worked just like it was designed to work that morning. Okay. Who designed it? Who designed a system by which a plane is hi-jacked, crashed into a building, followed by another plane crashing into another building on world-wide television and the response at the nation's capitol is to not put a single jet over the airspace? The response between WTC 1 and WTC 2 getting hit was apparently thinking that Washington was not going to be hit. Very well. But what would it have hurt to send a few aircraft up to simply be on patrol just in case...I stringently disagree that the seat of our government is not a vital asset. If I stated the "military's" most vital asset is the Pentagon, I was mistaken.


I'll address this collective as one, because really it's all part of the same point. I understand where you are coming from. Many people - both conspiracy theorists and those who accept the official account of the attacks - express outright stunned disbelief that these four hijacked aircraft were not stopped. It's far from a unique characteristic of Conspiracy Theorists.

One of the reasons I specifically investigated this claim was that I felt it was worthy of investigating, unlike, say, claims that the WTC towers were demolished.

My investigation was in two parts:
1) What were the capabilities of the defense network on the morning of 9/11?
2) Did the actual actions of the defense network fall short of, match, or exceed these capabilities?

The reality is no form of protection is absolute. From condoms to seatbelts to fighter interceptors.

This is the crux of our disagreement, I think. Many people (understandably) have a false expectation that the air defense network can prevent absolutely all threats. It may shock some Americans to learn that in the event of a full scale Russian air attack, with NORAD deploying all of their air sovereignty assets in defense, the military anticipated they would stop less than half of all Russian bombers from penetrating US airspace. That's with the full SCATANA plan functioning.

(The SCATANA Plan was a plan that turned over full control of US airspace and radar monitoring to the military and established a free-fire ROE, in the event of a full scale attack).

So that's NORAD's full bells and whistle prime task, and they anticipated less than 50% success rates. This is not an acceptance of defeat, or a lack of commitment, it's an acknowledgment of the realities of the situation. You simply cannot protect the airspace of an entire continent.

It wasn't an option to implement SCATANA on a daily basis - the USA have a strong resistance to the military being involved in daily activities and the civil airline transport industry was a vital part of the country. This meant in the event of full scale war there was a change over period from the peacetime FAA-operated airspace to SCATANA military-operated airspace. I don't know what the anticipated turnover was for this, but I think it's safe to assume it was a number of hours, if not days.

Anticipating that an attack might come without warning, NORAD was tasked with the additional duty of providing a 24/7 skeleton crew of air defenders to protect the nation. In the event of a surprise attack these scramble crews would sell their lives against overwhelming odds in the hope of buying the country enough time to implement a broader defense.

Even such a minimal crew was enormously expensive, but it was vital to protect the nation.

But as the Cold War ended and the Soviet threat faded, and as society became more liberal and pacifist, military budgets tightened dramatically. Anything that wasn't vital was scrapped or severely trimmed. NORAD's alert sites were eyed by politicians looking to cut military spending, and by military officers desperate to channel funds into more important areas.

The statistics simply showed that the NORAD alert sites were a wasted resource. Some alert sites did not have a single scramble. The vast majority that did were against drug smugglers.

NORAD's assets were slashed. The number of alert sites was reduced repeatedly over several decades. Military budgets were further slashed under Clinton's administration, in the face of a relatively peaceful globe (as least as far as the US was concerned). While those actually running the air defense mission warned that NORAD's capabilities were dangerous weak, and warned of asymmetrical air threats from rogue entities such as terrorists (NORAD considered cruise missiles or hijacked airliners from overseas to be the most significant threats), the politicians kept cutting back again and again, until by 2001 NORAD were left with fourteen pairs of fighters at seven alert sites to protect the entire contiguous USA.

And then 9/11 happened.

NORAD couldn't respond effectively for a number of reasons:

1) Depleted defense assets as explained above
2) Multiple coordinated attacks required multiple defense assets to respond
3) Close distribution of attacks both chronologically and geographically limited ability to use limited defense assets to respond to multiple threats
4) Domestic origin of attack fell outside protocol and drastically increased time it took for NORAD to be informed, while also drastically decreases window in which response could be undertaken
5) Suicide nature of attack fell outside protocol and was not clear until attack was 50% complete
6) Random events that happen in any such situation that hampered efforts (AA77 hijacking in non-primary area, miscommunication over AA11, miscommunication over scramble direction for F-16s, etc)

Mixed in with these points is a single common theme that I briefly discussed in explaining why SCATANA was not implemented on a daily basis. The USA has a long tradition of freedom, and a long tradition of distrusting authority - especially authority backed by military force. Their laws stringently restrict the ways in which the military can be used - far more than most other western countries. This is evident in things like the Posse Comitatus Act, but it's also evident in the operating protocol of many government departments including the military.

The protocols for hijacking were no different. Protocol strictly forbids military aircraft being used to apprehend hijackers or as a platform for gunfire. Protocol also strictly leaves authorisation for involving the military in the hands of the civilian FAA. The military do not have free reign in the air of the USA. If the situation is serious enough to warrant that, SCATANA is implemented. Otherwise the military are required to play by the FAA's rules, just like everyone else.

And the FAA's rules for a hijacking were very clear. They were based on a number of expectations, the most fundamental being that the hijackers wanted to live. To live they had to land, eventually, and the land they needed the pilots.

The prime objective in an aircraft hijacking, for every single aviation authority in every country in the world, was to get the aircraft on the ground.

This is so vital I'm going to repeat it.

The key goal in an aircraft hijacking was to get the aircraft on the ground.

Nothing could happen until the airliner was on the ground. Once it was on an airport tarmac counter terrorism teams, negotiators, law enforcement and every one else could resolve the situation, either peacefully or violently.

Everything hinged on the hijacked aircraft landing. Including military involvement. The military's only role was to accompany the aircraft to a runway and keep an eye on it - not to stop it.

But on 9/11 the hijackers didn't play by what were well established rules. Bear in mind that in the late 90's even regular suicide bombers were uncommon. Suicide airline hijackings were the sole domain of rare deranged madmen.

And the problem, of course, was the hijackers knew that pretending to play by the rules was vital to their success. So they did. They threatened, and they expressed a desire to head to airports, and they assured passengers no one would be hurt.

It wasn't until UA175 hit WTC2 that anyone could seriously understand that an entirely new type of attack was underway. An hour later it was all over. Is sixty minutes really long enough to rewrite the book on such a situation? Considering the far-reaching implications of new rules (military involvement in law enforcement, destroying private property, intentionally targetting your own citizens...)

Now, back to those six points...

Four of the above six points were not failures by the air defense system, but successes by Al Qaeda. In military terms a rapid, coordinated multi-prong surprise attack is the absolute hardest to respond to. Al Qaeda knew this.

The last point is simply the nature of combat - random unforseen events occur which make life hard for you. The same happened for Al Qaeda - for example UA93's delayed departure allowed the passengers to learn their fate and start a revolt.

The only point above which really lies squarely with the US air defense system is the depletion of assets. I've explained why that happened. It wasn't a case of a lazy officer, or even just a single politician. Reduced expenditure on a costly air defense network that was never used was the will of the entire nation. If you want to blame someone, ultimately the blame lies squarely with the American people. Their reprimand wasn't a court martial or expulsion from office. It was 3,000 dead citizens.

-Gumboot
 
The key goal in an aircraft hijacking was to get the aircraft on the ground.

I'd like to stress this too. Four simultaneous hijackings was unprecidented. Flying those planes into buildings was unthinkable. Such an attack really wasn't on the cultural radar of most citizens and military planners. The '93 WTC, '95 OKC, '98 Dar and Nairobi attacks had been with car bombs. Even the '99 Cole attack, while a suicide mission and therefore closer to 9/11, was a boat against a military target. Finally a plane striking a building in Manhattan wasn't without precident.

Personally I was surprised we responded at all in the first hour or so.
 
Your question is to Dave. But here's how I see it:

Al Qaeda: "Wonderful. Not only did we destroy four planes on the same day, we made the U.S. government do it for us! The public will be shocked that the U.S. government shot down not one, but four planes with their own citizens on board and will have their heads for not trying to negotiate first. Now, the next time we run one of these operations in the U.S., the government will be falling over itself trying to decide what to do while we blow up the oil tanker in port, take hostages in a theater, etc."

Couldn't have put it better. As if that's not enough, think of the field day the conspiracy theorists would have. Why should we believe this was anything other than a hostage situation when nobody has ever used airliners in a suicide attack? Why should we take the government's word that these alleged terrorists were even aboard these planes? Who was on the planes? Why did the government want to silence them? In this instance, because it was NORAD that acted, the burden of proof would be on the government that a suicide attack was planned. It would be a public relations nightmare for the USG, and hence a major propaganda victory for al-Qaeda.

Nick, I haven't been able to find that bin Laden quote, so take it with a pinch of salt. I'll let you know if I do find it, but since there are so many possible explanations I don't think it proves much either way.

Dave
 

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