Former conspiracy believer here

[Par]

I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

So, without evidence, you prefer a more complex explanation for a given phenomenon to a simpler one.

 

[dudalb]

I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

Watching Penn Gillette pop a balloon would not convince anyone who has taken a serious look at what's wrong with the official story.

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

 

[dudalb]

I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

Watching Penn Gillette pop a balloon would not convince anyone who has taken a serious look at what's wrong with the official story.

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

 

[Nick227]

NIST is often honest. I believe them when they say that no core column steel samples that they tested experienced temps of 250C.

I believe them when they say they have not tested for explosive residue.

I believe them when they say that they have no explanation for the total collapse of the towers.

If it's not "all that different" from what they've already published, I'm sure I'll accept it as yet another inconclusive report based on a series of assumptions.

But maybe it will be more than that, an actual conclusive report that can stand the test of critical scrutiny.

Are there good reasons why so many truthers seem so obsessed with the idea that the WTC was blown up? There's no motive established that I've seen. I've yet to see any good evidence to suggest that this happened, and I've been into the CT scene, as a believer, since several years before 911. I don't get it. Why do they so obsessively follow such an idiotic theory? I need reasons!

To us oldtime truthers, we know the NWO has been up to all sorts of nonsense for decades. The cia were all over the Afghanistan crime and terrorism scene for years. They could set up a terrorist cell to take out WTC like snapping their fingers. God, I could do it myself if I was that ****ed up. Who in god's name would want to blow the towers up and fly planes into them? You guys are bringing this business into disrepute! I'd say it was a conspiracy but I don't believe in them.

Nick

 

[dudalb]

I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

Watching Penn Gillette pop a balloon would not convince anyone who has taken a serious look at what's wrong with the official story.

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

 

[Diagoras]

I'm sticking to my original theory that you were never a "conspiracy believer" as you call it, but someone who thought that this would be some clever way to make the "twoofers" look dumb.

Well then that's one more lie you believe. Congratulations on becoming one more step removed from reality. Why would I need to make up a story to make you look dumb when you guys do a fine job of it yourselves?

Seriously, I did believe the conspiracy. I believed it wholeheartedly, but I came to realize that it's just not true. It's a bunch of guys looking at non-existent "holes" in the story to discredit it, and then they pull a story out of their butts to replace it. It's the same thing that the creationists are doing. There's no evidence that the United States government was behind it, no matter how much I wanted to believe that.

And believe me, I wanted to believe that. At the time I was a naïve Marxist and I did not have much sympathy for anybody involved with American politics. I believed the American government to be inherently tyrannical, and I was willing to accept any story that came my way that implicated them in some horrible act.

I'm sure you have similar emotional hang-ups about the government, or at least about the current administration. I'm sure you disliked this administration from the beginning, before 9/11, and I'm sure your conspiracy delusion is at least partly fueled by these emotions.

When I first got wind of the conspiracy, I went to all the conspiracy websites that blamed my enemies for bad things. I immersed myself in the conspiracy ideas that were out there on the Net. I watched the movies, I read the popular conspiracy websites, but I didn't take a close look at the opposition.

When you look only at the websites with half-truths that poke holes in the story as it really happened, you get the picture that this whole thing is full of anomalies that can't be explained. And when all your information is coming from people who hate the Bush administration and want to blame this on them, of course they're going to try to explain those anomalies in terms of pinning the blame on Bush. That's pretty much where I found myself. I didn't look at the sites that debunk the 9/11 conspiracy myths, so I didn't know the real answers to the questions the conspiracy theorists were raising. It was natural, in that state of ignorance and that emotional state, to accept the conspiracy theory.

But (gasp) over time my political opinions changed (EDIT: just for the record, I still have an extreme dislike for Bush and the Bush administration, but I'm no longer a Marxist), and I actually bothered to look at the explanations for the anomalies that I had learned about only through pro-conspiracy websites. Gradually, after I thoroughly examined both sides of the argument, I acquired enough information that it changed my stance on the conspiracy issue and I decided I was no longer convinced by the conspiracy explanation.

Call me a liar if you will. It only enhances my confidence that you're willing to deny reality to go on believing what you want to believe. The conspiracy to you is so obviously true that you don't think somebody who had intimate knowledge of it could give that belief up. I understand that. I used to believe that myself. It was inconceivable that I could ever deny the evidence which at the time seemed so clear to me. But I came to the understanding that I was mistaken, and I sincerely hope that you do as well. It is a humbling and maturing experience.

 

[RedIbis]

Are you on global ignore, you have failed to read NIST and even make a rational statement. How can you get the whole thing wrong in one simple post and reveal you have not studied and clearly do not understand NIST.

Like you ignore facts and evidence, I think most people have ignored your lack of facts in your posts, or maybe just you. Why not say more false stuff, it makes you sound so truthy.

Please correct your post and make it more factual. Can you do that?

I resist responding to your posts because I find them confrontational, nonsensical and often weird. I have no problem engaging in a dialogue, but please be accurate and specific.

 

[RedIbis]

When I first got wind of the conspiracy, I went to all the conspiracy websites that blamed my enemies for bad things. I immersed myself in the conspiracy ideas that were out there on the Net. I watched the movies, I read the popular conspiracy websites, but I didn't take a close look at the opposition.
[...]

Call me a liar if you will.

For argument's sake, ok, you looked into it. But where you and I would differ in our experience with "the conspiracy," once someone put a DVD in my hand with a computer animated image of a plane hitting the Pentagon, I said,

"oh, I don't have time for internet conspiracies." Still, I watched it and even as a New Yorker there was a tremendous amount of same day coverage I was not aware of.

Instead of going to all "conspiracy websites" I went to the 9/11 Commission Report and anything official to answer these questions.

And that's where the trouble started. The official "explanations" are lacking. I'm not nearly as interested in "conspiracy websites." I'm interested in the official reports.

And again, I never called you a liar. I questioned the sincerity of your OP.

 

[Nick227]

Whatever is wrong with the "official story" is minor compared to the massive amount of crap that is wrong with the Conspiracy Theories.

I want some separation here! More than just regular lihop/mihop. The CD stuff doesn't stand up to any scrutiny I've seen. But this doesn't undermine all CTs. Not for a second.

Nick

 

[Diagoras]

And again, I never called you a liar. I questioned the sincerity of your OP.

That is a lie. You are the liar here.

You said the whole story in my OP about me having believed in the conspiracy was a fabrication to make you look dumb. Yeah, sure, you didn't use that word, but saying I made up the story is calling me a liar.

 

[Drudgewire]

I want some separation here! More than just regular lihop/mihop. The CD stuff doesn't stand up to any scrutiny I've seen. But this doesn't undermine all CTs.

Are there any 9/11 MIHOP conspiracies that don't mention WTC 7?

 

[Nick227]

Well then that's one more lie you believe. Congratulations on becoming one more step removed from reality. Why would I need to make up a story to make you look dumb when you guys do a fine job of it yourselves?

Seriously, I did believe the conspiracy. I believed it wholeheartedly, but I came to realize that it's just not true. It's a bunch of guys looking at non-existent "holes" in the story to discredit it, and then they pull a story out of their butts to replace it. It's the same thing that the creationists are doing. There's no evidence that the United States government was behind it, no matter how much I wanted to believe that.

And believe me, I wanted to believe that. At the time I was a naïve Marxist and I did not have much sympathy for anybody involved with American politics. I believed the American government to be inherently tyrannical, and I was willing to accept any story that came my way that implicated them in some horrible act.

I'm sure you have similar emotional hang-ups about the government, or at least about the current administration. I'm sure you disliked this administration from the beginning, before 9/11, and I'm sure your conspiracy delusion is at least partly fueled by these emotions.

When I first got wind of the conspiracy, I went to all the conspiracy websites that blamed my enemies for bad things. I immersed myself in the conspiracy ideas that were out there on the Net. I watched the movies, I read the popular conspiracy websites, but I didn't take a close look at the opposition.

When you look only at the websites with half-truths that poke holes in the story as it really happened, you get the picture that this whole thing is full of anomalies that can't be explained. And when all your information is coming from people who hate the Bush administration and want to blame this on them, of course they're going to try to explain those anomalies in terms of pinning the blame on Bush. That's pretty much where I found myself. I didn't look at the sites that debunk the 9/11 conspiracy myths, so I didn't know the real answers to the questions the conspiracy theorists were raising. It was natural, in that state of ignorance and that emotional state, to accept the conspiracy theory.

But (gasp) over time my political opinions changed (EDIT: just for the record, I still have an extreme dislike for Bush and the Bush administration, but I'm no longer a Marxist), and I actually bothered to look at the explanations for the anomalies that I had learned about only through pro-conspiracy websites. Gradually, after I thoroughly examined both sides of the argument, I acquired enough information that it changed my stance on the conspiracy issue and I decided I was no longer convinced by the conspiracy explanation.

Call me a liar if you will. It only enhances my confidence that you're willing to deny reality to go on believing what you want to believe. The conspiracy to you is so obviously true that you don't think somebody who had intimate knowledge of it could give that belief up. I understand that. I used to believe that myself. It was inconceivable that I could ever deny the evidence which at the time seemed so clear to me. But I came to the understanding that I was mistaken, and I sincerely hope that you do as well. It is a humbling and maturing experience.

Diagoras,

I urge you not to give up on CTs on the basis of the idiotic CD scene. Read more. Examine. Although real rock solid hard evidence can be admittedly hard to find, there's a pattern of organisation out there which is worrying, to any responsible citizen. Look at the wealth of non CT material on the activities of the World Bank and IMF. Look at areas where vested interests massively undermine human need. Pharmaceuticals is an excellent case in point. Look at the possibility of a globalist agenda vastly kept out of the awareness of the general public. You don't need to be a marxist to see it.

Nick

 

[shuize]

10 to 1 he was there to experience the joy anime had brought him firsthand.

He's a long-term resident of Japan. But like many older ex-pats here he's sort of "lost the plot" along the way.

Even though he is pushing nearly twenty years in Japan his language ability is still piss poor so it's no surprise that he spends all his time digging up conspiracy theories on the web. Which makes his claim that the "U.S. government controls the internet" even more laughable. Don't think I didn't mention that as well.

 

[Nick227]

Are there any 9/11 MIHOP conspiracies that don't mention WTC 7?

For sure. The NWO, for want of a better term, constructed a terrorist cell to carry out the attacks as part of a globalist agenda to keep people locked into the whole us and them thing. No more evil Russians, it's time for evil terrorists. Divide and rule.

WTC 7 fell down because the structure weakened through fire.

Nick

 

[RedIbis]

That is a lie. You are the liar here.

You said the whole story in my OP about me having believed in the conspiracy was a fabrication to make you look dumb. Yeah, sure, you didn't use that word, but saying I made up the story is calling me a liar.

In the future you might consider using the quote function, that way you could prove your outrageous charge of mendacity.

Can't you take some scrutiny of your OP? Isn't that the whole point of a debate forum?

 

[beachnut]

Diagoras,

I urge you not to give up on CTs on the basis of the idiotic CD scene. Read more. Examine. Although real rock solid hard evidence can be admittedly hard to find, there's a pattern of organisation out there which is worrying, to any responsible citizen. Look at the wealth of non CT material on the activities of the World Bank and IMF. Look at areas where vested interests massively undermine human need. Pharmaceuticals is an excellent case in point. Look at the possibility of a globalist agenda vastly kept out of the awareness of the general public. You don't need to be a marxist to see it.

Nick

No, I agree, you can give up on CTs due to the fact of all the nut case ideas around. It is hard to grade which crazy idea on 9/11 is the most nuts. I have yet to find an idea from 9/11 truth, about 9/11, that is not false. Poor 9/11 truth, full of lies and false information. What do you think? How can a movement be so void of facts and evidence?

 

[RedIbis]

So, without evidence, you prefer a more complex explanation for a given phenomenon to a simpler one.

The official story is much more complex than the Inside Job theory.

There is an astounding amount of coincidence and incompetence that has to occur for the official story to be true.

 

[Drudgewire]

For sure. The NWO, for want of a better term, constructed a terrorist cell to carry out the attacks as part of a globalist agenda to keep people locked into the whole us and them thing. No more evil Russians, it's time for evil terrorists.

Good thing we tricked so many of the people on their side into supporting it too... and who to this day haven't figured out their leaders are just using them to die for globalism instead of that religion whooy that keeps the fires burning.

Really man, like the OP there was a time when you couldn't convince me ANY conspiracy theories weren't at least likely true. But once you step back and actually break down the parts required to make them work... most to all of the big ones, regardless of how loopy or how well-reasoned they might appear in comparison, eventually wind up with only slightly varying levels of impossibility.

 

[beachnut]

In the future you might consider using the quote function, that way you could prove your outrageous charge of mendacity.

Can't you take some scrutiny of your OP? Isn't that the whole point of a debate forum?

He has made a correct evaluation; you support 9/11 truth, you thus become a liar after pushing the lies of 9/11 truth. It is based on logic, your posts, and the fact you use no facts or evidence to support your support of 9/11 truth or even your own ideas on 9/11. He is using knowledge and judgment to tell you his conclusion; you should try it sometime soon. (plus you post without using facts)

You should try bringing facts to this debate, it is not faith or politics, it is an event. Facts? You could try using them. But then you would be a former truther. Oops, better skip the facts if you want to maintain your status.

 

[Diagoras]

Diagoras,

I urge you not to give up on CTs on the basis of the idiotic CD scene. Read more. Examine. Although real rock solid hard evidence can be admittedly hard to find, there's a pattern of organisation out there which is worrying, to any responsible citizen. Look at the wealth of non CT material on the activities of the World Bank and IMF. Look at areas where vested interests massively undermine human need. Pharmaceuticals is an excellent case in point. Look at the possibility of a globalist agenda vastly kept out of the awareness of the general public. You don't need to be a marxist to see it.

Nick

Again, if I'm going to believe in some conspiracy, I'm going to need to see some evidence.

Yeah, sure, corporations frequently act against the interests of the public for profits. But you have to realize that these are human beings here. They do have consciences, and they do have some semblance of basic human morality. It takes some serious brainwashing or some serious mental problems to overcome one's instinctual aversion to killing thousands of people in cold blood. Do you honestly think that hundreds, maybe thousands, of people could have put those basic moral thoughts out of their head, and have never spoken to anybody about it?

If you are brainwashed into thinking that Allah is going to reward you for killing the infidels, and you have been brainwashed into dehumanizing the infidels as evil people who deserve to be punished, it's not hard to get someone to martyr themselves and take thousands of lives in cold blood. That's the kind of thing I can understand. But who's going to steer a plane into a building of innocent people so their boss can make a buck?

And more to the point, what kind of company is going to even consider such a risky maneuver? I mean, there are so many ways you could be caught trying to set up such an elaborate scheme like 9/11 and trying to shut everybody up afterwards. If you screw up just once, the whole plan backfires, your corporation probably collapses and you're thrown in prison for life if not executed. Not exactly the kind of investment that a calculated risk-analyzing capitalistic thinker is going to make.