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Moderated Dowsing By Edge

The Pig, Even though your question has been discussed to death in this and related threads, we still have not had a clear answer from edge. I think he's incapable of giving one.

edge claims his MDC test was flawed, but when I asked what he thought were the flaws, he failed to answer. edge ignores questions he doesn't like. He won't be pinned down with specific questions which involve simple answers he doesn't have, he'd much rather waffle on incoherently repeating and contradicting himself over and over. He's a lost cause.
 
The Pig, Even though your question has been discussed to death in this and related threads, we still have not had a clear answer from edge. I think he's incapable of giving one.

edge claims his MDC test was flawed, but when I asked what he thought were the flaws, he failed to answer. edge ignores questions he doesn't like. He won't be pinned down with specific questions which involve simple answers he doesn't have, he'd much rather waffle on incoherently repeating and contradicting himself over and over. He's a lost cause.
I don't think Edge likes talking about it. If I recall correctly, Edge didn't make any complaints until more than a week after the test. He then started saying things like he was getting false readings from the fluorescent lights and other things in the building. When asked why he didn't mention them before the formal test, and why they didn't interfere with the open testing (which he got 100% right), he said something like "I didn't come all that way not to take my shot". He was implying, of course, that he knew about the "problems" but decided not to mention them because he hoped he could "luck" into finding the targets and win a million bucks.

I'm guessing he doesn't like to talk about this because it exposes the obvious fact that if this story is true, then he made false statements to James Randi when he told him that the conditions were satisfactory for the test, and he made false statements when he agreed that he was using his dowsing skills during the open test rather than just using the fact that he knew where the targets were.

So you can understand that he is reluctant to bring up this time when he engaged in deliberate deception. I don't hold it against him and if he could and would perform the same test where those interferences were minimal, that would be quite satisfactory. The problem is that since his first test, he seems to have discovered that there are interferences everywhere. He spent months rambling on about trying to find "neutral ground", oblivious to the fact that if the area where he is prospecting isn't clean enough to dowse, then dowsing wouldn't help him find gold there.

At some point you have to wonder if cognitive dissonance doesn't make Edge actually realize that he can't dowse, but he must continue to make ever-more-elaborate excuses, even to the point of defying Newtonian physics, because he thinks his honor is at stake. I for one would find it more honorable if he just admitted he was wrong about dowsing. I think we all know though, that that is not ever going to happen.
 
Lets see things that would optimize the conditions, for a human to do the test.

Lets take a day or two to do 100 scans, because that is grueling to do.
We can work on that.
But the whole test may require 200 scans.

One spot to measure the force with out many readings or calibrations keeps it simple to feel and read quickly.

One target so the high number on the scale is a heavy reading towards the limit of the scale upper end, as far away from the low number on the scale, of an empty containers measurement, to be sure.

9 empties and one targeted container so the numbers are as far away on the scale as possible from low to high, with Identical pulls that are part of the calibrations that the empties all read out, (they should be all the same measurement).

That leaves me with two numbers to deal with, and what I feel when dowsing.

In this way the target should also read the same measurements in any of the containers it is placed into.
No mistaking what is felt.
All containers that pass on the one spot under the scales are put into a container that hides the first container.

JREf knows the rest. How many people, who's watching whom...(% ages), blindfold, earplugs.
I think that's simple enough.

What would be real interesting is to blindfold me and let the second person that’s with me during the testing read the scales and then they choose by the readings.
 
Lets see things that would optimize the conditions, for a human to do the test.

Lets take a day or two to do 100 scans, because that is grueling to do.
We can work on that.
2 days to do the test? That's NOT optimising.
But the whole test may require 200 scans.
Not to fulfill the odds requirement of 1:1,000,000 for the MDC, nor the odds requirement of 1:10,000 to be "statistically significant". 100 is sufficient.

One spot to measure the force with out many readings or calibrations keeps it simple to feel and read quickly.

One target so the high number on the scale is a heavy reading towards the limit of the scale upper end, as far away from the low number on the scale, of an empty containers measurement, to be sure.
... and so you change your "protocol" yet again. You stated, and most would agree, that dummy targets are required in the "empty" containers to disguise the contents from the people running the test.
9 empties and one targeted container so the numbers are as far away on the scale as possible from low to high, with Identical pulls that are part of the calibrations that the empties all read out, (they should be all the same measurement).
Do they? Have you tested this to verify it, or are you merely creating yet another complication to a protocol?
That leaves me with two numbers to deal with, and what I feel when dowsing.

In this way the target should also read the same measurements in any of the containers it is placed into.
No mistaking what is felt.
All containers that pass on the one spot under the scales are put into a container that hides the first container.

JREf knows the rest. How many people, who's watching whom...(% ages), blindfold, earplugs.
I think that's simple enough.
This is even more complicated than all previous protocols suggested in this thread. Cut it back to basics. If you can dowse, you don't need all the showboating with blindfolds etc. In fact, until you DO demonstrate that you can dowse with simple experimental blinding, the rest is merely smoke and mirrors.

What would be real interesting is to blindfold me and let the second person that’s with me during the testing read the scales and then they choose by the readings.
You have yet to demonstrate that you can do it WITHOUT the blindfold.

How about concentrating on THAT first?
 
I am Optimizing my conditions not JREFs.

Do they? Have you tested this to verify it, or are you merely creating yet another complication to a protocol?

Yes I have verified and that makes it easier too..
 
Ehocking says,
... and so you change your "protocol" yet again. You stated, and most would agree, that dummy targets are required in the "empty" containers to disguise the contents from the people running the test.

Quote: Edge,
9 empties and one targeted container so the numbers are as far away on the scale as possible from low to high, with Identical pulls that are part of the calibrations that the empties all read out, (they should be all the same measurement).

And he says,
Do they? Have you tested this to verify it, or are you merely creating yet another complication to a protocol?
If I am wrong I will lose, and yes they do.
I have wanted empties from the beginning of this protocol.
I never see the two people that hide the targets or talk to them.
They will know which it is or they couldn't do their job.

Everything I have stated is as logically simple as can be.
Then they hide the container in a bigger container, one that’s plastic too.
I will never see the original container empty or full.

I think that a blindfold would cinch it.

Here it is from my documents,
All they have to do is agree to these conditions.
I scan on one spot.
Nine empty, and one with the target, in a ten-container pass,
(The same way it was done before), one that will hold, the target and 9 without, empty.

( I am leaving this part out now)
“When the target is there according to me, we take a break”.
But I would have liked it in there too; I have my reasons and theory.

When the ten of a set has passed I say where the target is.

One person, of my choosing to be on their side.

I don't think I'm asking for much.
The rest is up to them I have enough to think about.
No
Sand
rubber or plastic.
I’m even willing to do it near their office.

To make it quicker when the target is picked out that set of ten containers is over.
I am looking for a target in a set of ten X ten.

Since time is such an issue.

One scan of a target, on lets say the space station in a micro-gravity situation would prove it once and for all, the laws of physics would have an addendum, to be added.
It would only take a few seconds!
I could tutor some one to do it.
The opposite reaction should be movement of the dowsers’ body to the target as he dowses.
Motion should occur.
 
If I am wrong I will lose, and yes they do.
I have wanted empties from the beginning of this protocol.
Which protocol is that? I can't keep track the way you keep switching. And what are "empties"? Does that mean without anything in them or only without the target in them?

Everything I have stated is as logically simple as can be.
That is completely incorrect. It is so poorly defined and complicated that nobody can even figure out what you want from one minute until the next. Numerous people have offered to help you with your protocol, but you've opted for continuing to ramble on without clarifying anything. This is why the JREF rejected your application, as you recall. If you don't stop with the gibberish, I expect nobody will be willing to test you.

Perhaps it all seems logical in your own head. Lots of things seem logical in your head that actually aren't.

Then they hide the container in a bigger container, one that’s plastic too.
I will never see the original container empty or full.
Don't you see, Edge, it doesn't matter if you see the container or not as long as you don't know what's in it. They don't really even have to be identical, but for the purpose of reducing post-hoc excuses, it is better that they are.

I think that a blindfold would cinch it.
No. It is totally unnecessary and a waste of time. And by adding another unnecessary item to the test, it gives you one more thing to use as an excuse. The protocol should be designed to prevent excuses.

No
Sand
rubber or plastic.
What is that supposed to mean?

I’m even willing to do it near their office.
So you've abandoned your earlier requirement for "neutral ground"? Funny, you used that as an excuse for several months. Now it's not important? I actually agree that it isn't important (you should be able to tell the difference, regardless of whether the ground is "neutral or not.) but it illustrates how your demands keep changing.

To make it quicker when the target is picked out that set of ten containers is over.
I am looking for a target in a set of ten X ten.
I think this is what you meant:

"To make the test go faster, once the target has been identified within a single test of ten potential targets, that test will be halted."

Is that what you meant?
If so, you are not only hurting yourself, but it is likely that the testing group won't agree. Leaving some potential targets undowsed is just opening the door for you to make excuses later.

One scan of a target, on lets say the space station in a micro-gravity situation would prove it once and for all, the laws of physics would have an addendum, to be added.
Oh? How would that work? What exactly would happen during this single scan? Explain why it would be significant.

No, on second thought, don't. The last thing you need is to get derailed a discussion of physics, which you know virtually nothing about.

It would only take a few seconds!
I could tutor some one to do it.
You can tutor someone to be delusional? Seriously, Edge, you can't even prove that you can do it yourself. How are you going to teach somebody to do something that you cannot do?

The opposite reaction should be movement of the dowsers’ body to the target as he dowses.
Motion should occur.
That makes no sense at all. If there is an attractive force between two objects, then the force acts upon both objects. Thus if there is an attractive force between your dowsing rod and the target, then both your rod and the target would be pulled toward each other. The less massive of the objects would move more. This can be shown to be the case with every force yet known to man. Yet you claim that your big dowsing rod, held by an even bigger human, cannot cause a tiny pendant of gold to move noticeably. Try suspending a tiny magnet pendant and approach it with a dowsing bar of iron and see if you can make the magnet move. I'll bet you can. You can try it with a pendant of a toy balloon and a dowsing rod of glass which you have just rubbed with silk.

That is how force behaves, Edge. They are physical laws. You cannot play a "Get out of reality free" card to avoid those laws.
 
I assume some people read the following exchange already. For those who have not:

Hopefully the guy who gets asked a simple question: When can we expect your next application, egde?

Probably never.
I will seek other channels.

So what is edge's purpose of posting in the MDC subforum if he probably has no interest in ever applying again? You be the judge.
 
Edge,

Stopping any set once you think you have a hit effectively cancels out the double blinding, because now the people placing the targets know what your pick was.

Neither side of the test can know any results from the other side while testing is in progress. Results should only become know when both sides compare notes.
 
edge doesn't understand what double-blind means. He thinks it is putting the target in a container then placing that container in another. I think he thinks if he also wears a blindfold it means the test is triple-blind.

This is not meant as a derogatory post, or a joke. It's just meant to inform Drs_Res who may be unfamiliar with edge and his reasoning.
 
Edge,

Stopping any set once you think you have a hit effectively cancels out the double blinding, because now the people placing the targets know what your pick was.

Neither side of the test can know any results from the other side while testing is in progress. Results should only become know when both sides compare notes.

When I took the test in the office that's what happened.
We all knew what I picked when I chose it out of ten containers.
When I did a test with SezMe I didn't know till after.
I make my pick for that set It's done.
I would rather not know till it's over any way.

Reno says
edge doesn't understand what double-blind means. He thinks it is putting the target in a container then placing that container in another. I think he thinks if he also wears a blindfold it means the test is triple-blind.
These are just more checks to insure I don't cheat or can’t cheat.
 
These are just more checks to insure I don't cheat or can’t cheat.
A well designed double-blind protocol will not allow you to cheat and it won't require double containers or a blindfold. Besides, I don't think anyone here believes you would try to cheat. What is of greater concern is making sure you don't have anything you can use as an excuse for failure.
 
Edge, Double blind means;

You are blind to what is in each container, which is ONE level of blindness.

The tester with you, writing down your results is blind to what is in each container, which is SECOND level of blindness.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
I thought you had me on ignore?
I know all that.
Either way I still would like an independent observer I never see till the end when the scores are compared.
 
I thought you had me on ignore?
Does it bother you that he read your post? FYI, you can read another person's post when you have them on "ignore" if you specifically choose to.

I know all that.
Then why can't you draw up a protocol that correctly (or at least coherently) employs a double-blind procedure?

Either way I still would like an independent observer I never see till the end when the scores are compared.
If you have some one-way glass, that might be possible. However, it is not necessary that the independent observer "never sees you", only that he doesn't have communication with you. This is one reason I recommend a video camera as (at least one) independent observer. They don't talk to you. They don't take sides.
 
If you have some one-way glass, that might be possible. However, it is not necessary that the independent observer "never sees you", only that he doesn't have communication with you. This is one reason I recommend a video camera as (at least one) independent observer. They don't talk to you. They don't take sides.

No it has to be a person.
Or a person has to run the camera.
 

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