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Why Can't They Figure it Out?

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Where I live, they've been struggling mightily in the major cities to figure out why it is the public schools here are such disasters.

They've done studies, called in outside "experts," gone to the parents, and every governor and city mayor for at least the past decade and a half has called him/herself "the EDUCATION gov/mayor."

Still, our schools continue to fail. The dropout rate rises. White flight continues (these kids LIVE in the neighborhoods, but thier parents send them to private schools). Some schools have (under new laws) actually been forced to close and re-open as charter schools.

Funding for schools continues to rise. Free lunches (and breakfast) are at an all-time high despite a booming economy with virtually no unemployment. Teachers are, more and more, being required to prove expertise in their subject area, forcing out the incompetent and teacher salaries are far above the average for the area ($50k/yr, vs. just under $30k) removing any notion that "low pay" prevents the hiring of better teachers. Meanwhile, the larger districts engage in nation-wide hunts for top officials, paying them top dollar ($120-250k). So that too, simply cannot be the problem.

So what is it? The water? Cycles of the moon?

Just recently, the largest district here came out with what was taken in the media and their own circles as a surprising idea: kids who do not speak English, do not fare as well in these schools as kids who do and that since many of the schools in these districts are 75%, 80% even 90% "non-English learners" that this may--just MAY--have some impact on the testing scores that indicate how badly these schools are doing!

Whooda thunk it!?

And what language is it that thes "non-English learners" speak as their native tongue? Tagalog? Ursi? !Kunk!? Well...no, as it turns out. The language is...Spanish!

And where, one might wonder, do all these Spanish-speaking "learners" come from? Granted, this state was once, partly a part of Nueva Espana, and yes, there is a large native Hispanic (Spanish- or Mexican-American) population here and always has been. And while many of these people and their kids speak Spanish (many an archaic Castillian) their primary language is English.

So who are all these Spanish-speaking "learners"?

It seems that school and state education officials here, including governors and mayors have simply been unable to figure it out, but they HAVE, finally, come to realize that when you have schools filled with "learners" who do not speak the language of the nation in which they are um..."learning" it makes it tough for them to um...learn.

I wonder why, given the insistence that American schools are run by our nation's best and brightest, that it's taken them so long to figure out that when 70%, 80% or even 90% of a school's "learner" population is the children of illegal aliens who do not speak English, that this may present a problem.

Tokie
 
Are you sure they didn't know this all along, but only recently made a public statement of it? Perhaps it is now so obvious to everyone that even the most politically correct are willing to acknowledge it.

~~ Paul
 
No way! Tell me it isn't true! EVERY non-English-speaking Hispanic child who goes to a US school is an illegal alien?! :eek:


Look, I'm only guessing here, but wouldn't it be perhaps better to...how do I say this...back that up with facts? For example, have you seen the level of English capability among many of the US WASP posters on the myriad of forums out there today? Many of them can't even spell l33t or even phone-text properly, let alone parse or even write simple day-to-day English. Not to mention the incredibly common misspellings like "to", "too" and "two"; "There", "they're" and "their"; "Your and "you're"; "Lose" and "loose" (which seems to be a common misspelling here too, alas)...

The USA has a proud history of fine writers, and more are on the way. Perhaps the answers may lie in the provision and content of primary education, not necessarily in who is receiving it. Want an example of "US white kids" getting piss-poor education? Kansas...
 
The only factor that has been consistently correlated with academic achievement is socio-economic status.

Students with limited English proficiency test just as well in math and science as students in the same socio-economic brackets. You obviously can't compare the English skills of an LEP students to non-LEP students and expect to get legitimate results.

My parents were both infants when they came to this country, and neither could speak English by their first day of kindergarten. They both have university degrees and are doing well, thank you.

This nonsense you've spouted about schools recieving more funding is a joke, right? Florida, in particular, has had dwindling funding, and while the federal goverment has been passing down funding, they come with mandates on class size, teacher qualifiactions, and frequent standardized assessments (Local students are in mandated testing as much as ten days out of the year, depending on their grade level) that may wind up doing more harm than good.

If I raised your pay by a small margin, but asked you to do ten impossible things before 9 a.m. while blindfolded and juggling chainsaws, you might understand.
 
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The only factor that has been consistently correlated with academic achievement is socio-economic status.

Students with limited English proficiency test just as well in math and science as students in the same socio-economic brackets. You obviously can't compare the English skills of an LEP students to non-LEP students and expect to get legitimate results.

My parents were both infants when they came to this country, and neither could speak English by their first day of kindergarten. They both have university degrees and are doing well, thank you.

This nonsense you've spouted about schools recieving more funding is a joke, right? Florida, in particular, has had dwindling funding, and while the federal goverment has been passing down funding, they come with mandates on class size, teacher qualifiactions, and fequent standardized assessments (Local students are in mandated testing as much as ten days out of the year, depending on their grade level) that may wind up doing more harm than good.

If I raised your pay by a small margin, but asked you to do ten impossible things before 9 a.m. while blindfolded and juggling chainsaws, you might understand.
I back that up from further North (Orlando). More silliness, less actual teaching; more repetition, less technology/jobs teaching.
 
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Around these parts, teachers are flooding out of the state, due to low pay.

There's a lot of blame to go around when it comes to students performing poorly...Teachers, parents, school boards, and believe it or not, even the students.


And now for the off-topic...

I work retail, so...

...do ten impossible things before 9 a.m. while blindfolded and juggling chainsaws...

...piece of cake...the real problem is: What do I do for the rest of the day?:D
 
Are you sure they didn't know this all along, but only recently made a public statement of it? Perhaps it is now so obvious to everyone that even the most politically correct are willing to acknowledge it.

~~ Paul

You may be onto something....but then again the capitol city where I live is a "sanctuary" city and the state itself is a "sactuary" state, and neither the smarmy mayor nor the new, very confused gov. will admit it.

Tokie
 
No way! Tell me it isn't true! EVERY non-English-speaking Hispanic child who goes to a US school is an illegal alien?! :eek:


Look, I'm only guessing here, but wouldn't it be perhaps better to...how do I say this...back that up with facts? For example, have you seen the level of English capability among many of the US WASP posters on the myriad of forums out there today? Many of them can't even spell l33t or even phone-text properly, let alone parse or even write simple day-to-day English. Not to mention the incredibly common misspellings like "to", "too" and "two"; "There", "they're" and "their"; "Your and "you're"; "Lose" and "loose" (which seems to be a common misspelling here too, alas)...

The USA has a proud history of fine writers, and more are on the way. Perhaps the answers may lie in the provision and content of primary education, not necessarily in who is receiving it. Want an example of "US white kids" getting piss-poor education? Kansas...

Yor PC wayling aside, th fackt of the mater iz thet the vast majority of those in this area who do not speak English are in the country illegally. You can run around shrieking "prove the sun rises in the east!!!" all you want, and if I fail to do so you can puff out your chest and proudly proclaim yourself the winner of the debate...but the sun will continue to rise in the east, nonetheless.

Following this with the hoary tactic (pg. 2, section 1, Liberal Playbook) by implying that anyone noting the facts of this situation must needs by a flaming, xenophobic sheet-warin' redneck nightrider, is not only a very cleverly "hidden" ad hom, but reeks of guilt by association and is an enormous non sequitur. But screaming "RAAAACCCIIISTTTTTTTTTT!!!!" at anyone who dares point up the truth in this sichiashun, is laughably predictable of people on yor siyde of this deebayt

Mayhaps that is where the next fine writers will come from...what this has to do with anything in my post, I cannot say. And while I am sure many fine, upstanding additions to our society will come out of the illegal population, in the meantime, schools in places like where I live, are falling apart and those who have an actual right to be there are getting a(n even more) sub-standard education because of the overwhelming presence of these people.

Yes. I said "these people." I must be a RAAAACCCIIIISSTTTTTTTTTT!!!

Tokie
 
wuts gud reedn got ta do wit ejikashun?
I actually once saw a principal say essentially that ( except the accent part) to a group of teachers I was with ("I don't understand all this stuff about reading - I don't like reading and I'm fine with a computer!!") in Pasco County
 
Tokenconservative; said:
Yor PC wayling aside, th fackt of the mater iz thet the vast majority of those in this area who do not speak English are in the country illegally.

Even assuming this is true, you still need to show that they're harming the educational system for your position to hold any water.
 
Yor PC wayling aside, th fackt of the mater iz thet the vast majority of those in this area who do not speak English are in the country illegally. You can run around shrieking "prove the sun rises in the east!!!" all you want, and if I fail to do so you can puff out your chest and proudly proclaim yourself the winner of the debate...but the sun will continue to rise in the east, nonetheless.
I'll repeat: (1) Have you facts to back that assertion up? (2) What has this to do with overall teaching efficacy and learning ability?

Following this with the hoary tactic (pg. 2, section 1, Liberal Playbook) by implying that anyone noting the facts of this situation must needs by a flaming, xenophobic sheet-warin' redneck nightrider, is not only a very cleverly "hidden" ad hom, but reeks of guilt by association and is an enormous non sequitur. But screaming "RAAAACCCIIISTTTTTTTTTT!!!!" at anyone who dares point up the truth in this sichiashun, is laughably predictable of people on yor siyde of this deebayt
You have NO idea who you are talking to, do you! :)

Mayhaps that is where the next fine writers will come from...what this has to do with anything in my post, I cannot say. And while I am sure many fine, upstanding additions to our society will come out of the illegal population, in the meantime, schools in places like where I live, are falling apart and those who have an actual right to be there are getting a(n even more) sub-standard education because of the overwhelming presence of these people.

Yes. I said "these people." I must be a RAAAACCCIIIISSTTTTTTTTTT!!!

Tokie
Ah, here we have your REAL gripe! The "illegals" are not content with taking American jobs, they are also holding American kids back in school. Is that it, in a nutshell?
 
Where is "this area"?

Area 51, of course!

Very clever attempt to track me down...next, I suppose you will tell me you are the daughter of a deceased Nigerian general with $4.2 million dollars in a bank in Nairobi, and that you need my help....

Tokie
 
I'll repeat: (1) Have you facts to back that assertion up? (2) What has this to do with overall teaching efficacy and learning ability?

You have NO idea who you are talking to, do you! :)

Ah, here we have your REAL gripe! The "illegals" are not content with taking American jobs, they are also holding American kids back in school. Is that it, in a nutshell?

Well, you could catch me out on the "correlation is not necessarily causation" issue, but in this case, they've pretty much, over the past decade or so since standardized (state) testing has put failing schools at risk for closing, spent millions of dollars trying to figure out "why" they keep failing.

Every year, when the reports on the schools' "grades" come out, shortly after follow all sorts of "experts" telling us why the schools are failing. Following this, are more studies to figure out why the schools are failing in preparation for the "experts" telling us why the schools are failing the following year.

Now, the only thing they have not addressed so far is this. They've trotted out all the "educators'" favorites, starting with "it's the parents' fault!" (yes, to a large degree in this case) to "we need to add free BREAKFAST!!" and "childcare for the students' kids!!" and any number of other bandaid approaches, the likes of which anybody with a few years under his or her belt has seen tried and discarded a dozen times over the decades since the mid-1960s.

Finally, just recently, the light went off over somebody's head, and THIS "study" by an "expert" indicates that well...it maybe just could be that the fact that teachers teach in English but that most of their students either don't speakd that particular language at all, speak very little of it, and can read almost no English.

Given, for about 3-4 years, you cannot be hired in this school district if you are not fluent in a language other than English, but they still have to deal with all those teachers still there who speak only English (sigh...yes, I know...some may speak Tagalog or !Kung! but that is hardly the point...DO try and focus, won't you!).

I am beginning to guess I am talking to a teacher or school administrator. Should I care? Does that give you some special insight? Or does it just mean you are more biased than most?

The illegals are not purposely doing this. This, another hoary left-liberal tactic right out of the Playbook, is just another non-sequitur, bordering on an ad hom (HE's a RAAAACCIISTTTTTTT!!!!). To be sure, most of their parents would rather these kids were out earning money or finding a husband if they are girls. But our laws force them to be there until age 16, and there they are (mostly), not learning in two languages and bored out of their minds so disrupting the learning of others.

Now, if you ARE a teacher or school admin., and you do not know that this is what kids who are not doing anything else in school all day do--distrupt--it does not speak well to either your experience, your observation skills or your intellect.

Tokie
 
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