why are the same religious arguments made over and over again?

[CapelDodger]

God, being beyond name and form ...

Spooky.

... essence ...

Ooooh, essence ...

.... free of the limitation ...

Aspirational. I can see how you could sell this stuff

When God presents himself/herself/itself in a form ...

It'll be a first.

... it is often in a human form in order to make sense to the experiencer ...

Oh, you mean a subjective experience of a form. It doesn't do crowds, then, or Oprah?

... so that the experiencer can relate to the experience in some understandable meaningful way.

It could go on Oprah - they'd clear the schedule, surely - in the form of Charlton Heston and there'd be loads of relating. Any theory as to why it hasn't? Six billion odd one-on-one, how's it going to keep up? And that assumes just this one planet with souls. Just the one species, come to that.

Sometimes it's in a he-form, such as Vishnu, sometimes it's in a she-form, such as Kali.

But always subjective, neh?

(Just like those grey aliens with the big eyes. They could get on Oprah like that. So what's with the crop-circles ?)

 

[plumjam]

Oh, you mean a subjective experience of a form. It doesn't do crowds, then, or Oprah? It could go on Oprah - they'd clear the schedule, surely - in the form of Charlton Heston and there'd be loads of relating. Any theory as to why it hasn't? Six billion odd one-on-one, how's it going to keep up? And that assumes just this one planet with souls. Just the one species, come to that.

Intersubjective forms too, like Jesus Christ, an incarnation of God. Jesus did crowds, and sometimes even fed them. Not many believed him, at the time.
If a human incarnation of God was living now and asked to go on Oprah, what do you think his chances of getting on would be?
I don't doubt that some people have approached Oprah in that way. I haven't seen one yet be taken seriously and get to be a guest.

But always subjective, neh?

which of your experiences are not subjective too?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Intersubjective forms too, like Jesus Christ, an incarnation of God. Jesus did crowds, and sometimes even fed them. Not many believed him, at the time.

The area was crawling with holy men and miracle workers at the time. They were much like the god men of India today. They traveled about performing "miracles" for the local villagers and preaching. But no one can provide any evidence that Jesus actually existed. He may have, but the history suggests that the Jesus of the Bible was a creation of Paul. It's even likely that the Jesus of the early narratives was based on elements of a number of holy men and apocalyptic rabis. If Jesus did walk the Earth it's unlikely that he would recognize the modern portrayal of himself.

 

[Phil]

God, being beyond name and form, is in essence neither he nor she, being free of the limitation of gender.
When God presents himself/herself/itself in a form, it is often in a human form in order to make sense to the experiencer.. so that the experiencer can relate to the experience in some understandable meaningful way.
Sometimes it's in a he-form, such as Vishnu, sometimes it's in a she-form, such as Kali.

Mother puss bucket! Apparently, I was wasting my time talking to you?

 

[CapelDodger]

Intersubjective ..

Is that yours? Kudos if it is ,otherwise kudos elsewhere. It's going straight into my lexicon. "Appertaining to the relationship of cult-leader and follower".

... forms too, like Jesus Christ, an incarnation of God.

No god, no incarnation. Jesus was just this guy, you know? I'm far from convinced he was even a cult-leader, let alone claimed godhead.

Jesus did crowds, and sometimes even fed them. Not many believed him, at the time.

They'd have stoned him if he claimed to be anything other than an inspired human.

If a human incarnation of God was living now and asked to go on Oprah, what do you think his chances of getting on would be?

The first step would be to raise the dead under an agreed JREF protocol. The next would be to do it again, on cable with Randi looking on (I'm sure once would be enough to pique his serious interest). If Randi goes hands-up at that point - which, as man of integrity, he would - Oprah would be in a competition to get him on her show.

I don't doubt that some people have approached Oprah in that way. I haven't seen one yet be taken seriously and get to be a guest.

I don't doubt it either, but they didn't approach via the JREF.

which of your experiences are not subjective too?

Winning the trophy on my mantel-piece. Everybody else involved lost. If my winning it was purely subjective, they'd have let me know.

 

[CapelDodger]

Mother puss bucket! Apparently, I was wasting my time talking to you?

Not from my point of view; I enjoy your contributions, and not just because I'm way over in the same camp. I'll probably steal "theistic arguments are impotent", which says it all.

I'm not playing to an audience that really includes plumjam, and I doubt you are, at heart . It's the undecided and the still-salvageable that I play to. While maintaining my integrity, of course. The most critical member of my audience is me.

 

[CapelDodger]

The area was crawling with holy men and miracle workers at the time. They were much like the god men of India today. They traveled about performing "miracles" for the local villagers and preaching. But no one can provide any evidence that Jesus actually existed. He may have, but the history suggests that the Jesus of the Bible was a creation of Paul. It's even likely that the Jesus of the early narratives was based on elements of a number of holy men and apocalyptic rabis. If Jesus did walk the Earth it's unlikely that he would recognize the modern portrayal of himself.

Indubitably.

To my mind, the interesting question is why plumjam et al have a thing about one of these guys, who might well be an amalgam of several. The answer, I think, lies in the shock of the new, which was happening all through the Mediterranean at the time. The precipitate rise of Rome left Rome as shocked as everybody else, and the local religions - Roman, Greek, Jewish, Egyptian - were too small to cope. Look what happened to Judaea when the locals tried to rescue their religion by pushing the outside world away. Disaster.

Christianity is an alloy of all these Mediterranean traditions, with a primary Greek constituent. Attempts at a Graeco-Judaic synthesis go back to Alexander, and so had a head-start when Rome suddenly changed the rules.

 

[joobz]

Indubitably.

To my mind, the interesting question is why plumjam et al have a thing about one of these guys, who might well be an amalgam of several. The answer, I think, lies in the shock of the new, which was happening all through the Mediterranean at the time. The precipitate rise of Rome left Rome as shocked as everybody else, and the local religions - Roman, Greek, Jewish, Egyptian - were too small to cope. Look what happened to Judaea when the locals tried to rescue their religion by pushing the outside world away. Disaster.

Christianity is an alloy of all these Mediterranean traditions, with a primary Greek constituent. Attempts at a Graeco-Judaic synthesis go back to Alexander, and so had a head-start when Rome suddenly changed the rules.

So, do you think we'll have a similar fusion will eventually happen in current climate?

 

[plumjam]

Mother puss bucket! Apparently, I was wasting my time talking to you?

Possibly. That's for you to decide.
Clearly something prompted you to converse with me in the first place, so I'd surmise I grabbed your interest somehow.
Do you normally feel you're wasting your time when you talk to someone with a significantly different outlook to your own? I don't, because maybe I'll learn something from them.

 

[plumjam]

It's the undecided and the still-salvageable that I play to.

Ahaaa.. we have a missionary in our midst.

 

[plumjam]

Is that yours? Kudos if it is ,otherwise kudos elsewhere. It's going straight into my lexicon. "Appertaining to the relationship of cult-leader and follower".
No god, no incarnation. Jesus was just this guy, you know? I'm far from convinced he was even a cult-leader, let alone claimed godhead.
They'd have stoned him if he claimed to be anything other than an inspired human.
The first step would be to raise the dead under an agreed JREF protocol. The next would be to do it again, on cable with Randi looking on (I'm sure once would be enough to pique his serious interest). If Randi goes hands-up at that point - which, as man of integrity, he would - Oprah would be in a competition to get him on her show.
I don't doubt it either, but they didn't approach via the JREF.
Winning the trophy on my mantel-piece. Everybody else involved lost. If my winning it was purely subjective, they'd have let me know.

So, in short, instead of people believing their own experience they should defer to a stage magician, in his new role of Arbiter Of Divinity.
Sounds a bit like the Papacy to me.

 

[Foster Zygote]

So, in short, instead of people believing their own experience they should defer to a stage magician, in his new role of Arbiter Of Divinity.
Sounds a bit like the Papacy to me.

So if you'd seen Uri Geller or Peter Popoff performing their tricks, and you couldn't imagine how they could fake such a thing, you would believe them and ignore the man who leans in and says "I do that sort of thing for a living. Would you like to know how it's done?" because your experience told you that Geller could bend spoons with his mind and Popoff could hear God's voice telling him about the ailments of strangers?

 

[Phil]

Possibly. That's for you to decide.
Clearly something prompted you to converse with me in the first place, so I'd surmise I grabbed your interest somehow. . . . .

Yes, you seemed (and still seem) confused about a few things. Thought maybe I could lend a hand.

. . . . Do you normally feel you're wasting your time when you talk to someone with a significantly different outlook to your own? . . . .

Nope. Not usually.

. . . . I don't, because maybe I'll learn something from them.

Doubtful.

 

[CapelDodger]

So, do you think we'll have a similar fusion will eventually happen in current climate?

That's an interesting question. Some blend of Scientology, Raelianism (?) and New Age pick'n'mix perhaps ? The Buddislamism of Frank Herbert's Dune series?

What would really throw the cat amongst the pit-bulls is contact with another religiously-inclined species.

 

[CapelDodger]

So, in short, instead of people believing their own experience they should defer to a stage magician, in his new role of Arbiter Of Divinity.

More in the spirit of "set one to catch one". Seeing is not believing, m'kay?

 

[tsg]

So, in short, instead of people believing their own experience they should defer to a stage magician, in his new role of Arbiter Of Divinity.
Sounds a bit like the Papacy to me.

Is no one else struck by the irony of plumjam's avatar being a strawman?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Is no one else struck by the irony of plumjam's avatar being a strawman?

I noticed that too. Most members seem to choose avatars based on what they are fond of.

 

[Tanstaafl]

So, in short, instead of people believing their own experience they should defer to a stage magician, in his new role of Arbiter Of Divinity.
Sounds a bit like the Papacy to me.

I can see how it might seem that way to you.

In reality, James Randi has become highly skilled at detecting fakers. If you encounter someone who likely is a faker, but who could, conceivably, be the genuine article, who better to call in than an expert?

If your car breaks down, you call a mechanic, not a priest, right?

 

[CapelDodger]

I noticed that too. Most members seem to choose avatars based on what they are fond of.

Certainly true in my case - that's m'dog Judas up there.

Probably true in your case as well, which is a tad unsettling.

 

[Darth Rotor]

why are the same religious arguments made over and over again?

Because, there is nothing new under the sun.

(Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 NIV)

9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.
11 There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

Harry Truman once quipped "There is no news, only the history you haven't read yet." (Or something like that.)

DR