ZEITGEIST, The Movie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_cross#History



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaurus



Perhaps this is where they thought of this...the sun "dies" and is reborn in virgo...and this goes on directly above this fake cross....

You need to go and re-watch the film.

Quote from the narrator: “And thus it is said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for three days, only to be resurrected and born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun gods share a crucifixion, three day death, and resurrection concept.”

Silly attempt to use King James English aside, the imagery used by the film as this is being said illustrates the modern Southern Cross constellation as if it were a clearly defined constellation. Presentation is important, and these guys presented it sloppily and out of order, which does not pass the scholastic muster.

To let those who are interested know, here are my formatted comments on Part I. Sorry, PDF only. These are just based on notes, and not the full collection of the data with everything fully and contextually listed.

I mean, I'm agnostic and a have been for a very long time. I have zero suspicion that there is any god for any religion whatsoever. However, the content in Zeitgeist was so poorly constructed that it contains the same intellectual dishonesty and agenda-driven misrepresentation of facts of some of the most fundemental of religious zealots. The part about the presentation that I find the most objectionable in the film is its zealous nature.
 
Great counter! Unfortunately, I'm not going to give you any such proof. For all you know I am an intricately-developed figment of your imagination, and you needn't consider me with any more or less importance. I have no desire to get into a debate over qualia. I will clarify, though, that when I said "out there" I mean "everything that is external to yourself, despite how you may define those things internally."

I would like to pick this one up. Could you tell me if you are not going to give me "any such proof" because you are unable or because you are unwilling?

If it's the former would you thus agree that objectivity exists purely as a subjective phenomena?

You seem a decent fellow, Nick, and honestly I think the only thing we are having a difference of opinion on are the boundaries in the realms of science and mysticism. For that, all I can say is that it is not and has never been within the bounds of science to attempt to explain why, only how and what. Mysticism, on the other hand, describes what and attempts to explain why. I think this is the crux of why I do not seem to find the same value in some of the things you have described that seem to hold some level of value to you.

You also seem a decent chap, though I am a little concerned that you appear to change your attitude towards me somewhat randomly. (Or perhaps there is a subconscious motivation in there somewhere)

Regarding science and mysticism, personally I would say that mysticism does not actually attempt to answer the question "Why", merely the question "How" on a different level. Whether it satisfactorily achieves this, like everything else at the end of the day, may only be evaluated subjectively.

Nick
 
Well, I've known the war was about oil since before the war happened. Lots of people did. Anyone with a brain capable of looking at the situation and drawing some simplistic generalizations about it knew that the war was largely about oil.

So how hidden was this agenda, if everybody was talking about it before it happened? It's "politically inconvenient" to acknowledge it - it's not hidden. It's the elephant in the room.

So, you would agree that it was certainly convenient that the 9-11 events occurred, with regard to the furthering of this agenda?
 
there was nothing convenient about 9/11. to make that assertion, then you are treading into lihop scenarios.
 
So, you would agree that it was certainly convenient that the 9-11 events occurred, with regard to the furthering of this agenda?

You're suggesting that a terrorist attack by a group of Saudi Arabians based in Afghanistan was convenient to the furthering of an agenda involving an attack on Iraq? Just look at the gymnastics of spin doctoring that the Bush administration had to resort to, to try - and fail - to link Iraq with 9-11, and the fact that in the end they had to lie about Iraqi WMD to justify the war, which they could have done just as easily had there been no 9-11. Just like Pearl Harbor, 9-11 basically got the USA into a war that diverted its attention from the one its leaders wanted to be in; this is one of the most telling points against either set of conspiracy theories.

Dave
 
You're suggesting that a terrorist attack by a group of Saudi Arabians based in Afghanistan was convenient to the furthering of an agenda involving an attack on Iraq? Just look at the gymnastics of spin doctoring that the Bush administration had to resort to, to try - and fail - to link Iraq with 9-11, and the fact that in the end they had to lie about Iraqi WMD to justify the war, which they could have done just as easily had there been no 9-11. Just like Pearl Harbor, 9-11 basically got the USA into a war that diverted its attention from the one its leaders wanted to be in; this is one of the most telling points against either set of conspiracy theories.

Dave

You're saying it would have been just as easy to go into Iraq had 9-11 not taken place?

Nick
 
You're saying it would have been just as easy to go into Iraq had 9-11 not taken place?

No, I said it would have been just as easy to lie about WMD to give a pretext to go into Iraq. Remember, also, that the no-fly orders were still being enforced, with limitless possibilities for a Gulf of Tonkin-like border incident as a pretext for war, and that the UN were close to passing a resolution supporting the invasion on the basis of WMD allegations alone. There were always much less risky ways for the Bush administration to justify an attack on Iraq than false flag mass murder. It might well have been more difficult to sell the Iraq invasion to the US public absent 9-11; on the other hand, there might well have been more resources to devote to the war absent the occupation of Afghanistan, and it might even have been precipitated sooner in a bid to mobilise the jingoistic vote for the 2004 election.

Neither side of this argument is conclusive, as it's all based on what would have happened had one of the defining events of the current decade not taken place, but anyone who cites the Iraq invasion as evidence of motive for USG complicity in 9-11 is most likely guilty of a drastic over-simplification.

Dave
 
Really? So if science is so objective, then why is peer review a much needed element for validation of test results etc? Everything is subjective, and science is the only valid means of sorting out scientific claims that are based on a researchers subjective interpretation of the data collected.

I think the need for peer review could be said to demonstrate a lack of rational conviction most scientists actually have about their work. Of course one could also say it's only human.

Science, and indeed objectivity itself, is fundamentally subjective because it relies on the notion of a relatively finite observer. From this subjective belief all measured observation can take place. And from measurement science and objectivity proceed. Few scientists are sufficiently interested, in my experience, in objectivity to actually apply their rationale to their own inner world. If they did they would realise that all objectivity arises from an untested assumption - that this finite observer exists. They have no proof whatsoever for it. There is nothing in their experience of being alive which can verify it, at least nothing I have ever come across. But without it objectivity collapses and one is left floundering around in a non-dual mish-mash.

This is, imo, quite relevant to this thread because...there is an inherent tendency in most people to avoid confrontation with this deep subjective-objective divide. It scares the crap out of them. A powerful "conspiracy theory" throws people right there. It challenges some of the deepest beliefs they have about themselves and their world. It can shake them to the core. This does not mean that conspiracy theories are actually true. But it does explain why many people really struggle to realistically assess them. They demand extreme objectivity because the stakes are high. And, in many ways, I think they're right to.

Nick
 
Holy FSM, thesyntaxera is back. Found any evidence of that explosive compound that was mixed with the WTC concrete when the towers were built, thesyntaxera?

All we need to complete this thread is a "paranormal hat."

Yoiks.
 
Tradational Kabballah is a system of Jewish Mysticism that ,although it precise age is unknown,goes back at least a few hundred years.
However the Kabballah that you see celebs like Madonna practice is only about 20 years old and is regarded by most Traditional Kabballahists as a travesty and a total distortion of Traditiional Kabballist beliefs and practices.
I am not crazy about mysticism in general, but felt this distinction had to made.

Drifting OT but, well, whatever. It might fit a "popular myth" format that Berg's Kabbalah Centre is real lightweight and other traditional forms disregard it, but I don't see this as true. Berg's from Baal Ha Sulaam school. It's straight-down-the-line Lurianic Kabbalah, as far as I'm aware. There's a splinter BHS school, B'nei Baruch, and they bitch at other once in a while, but I don't generally see other K schools dissing Berg. At least not any more than they generally slag each other off.

Kabbalah, the word just means "receive," is usually accepted as dating back to the Zohar, or, perhaps later on, to the Sefer Yetzirah, putting it 5th century or 12th, if my memory serves. Plenty of groups will claim it predates Christianity or, if they're feeling honest, claim Merkavah mysticism (a K forebear) does. If you're really into the citation scene, and don't mind being bored rigid by tedious scholarly tomes in the name of objective research, then the books of Gershom Scholem should provide proof of this.

Nick
 
I think the need for peer review could be said to demonstrate a lack of rational conviction most scientists actually have about their work. Of course one could also say it's only human.

Science, and indeed objectivity itself, is fundamentally subjective because it relies on the notion of a relatively finite observer. From this subjective belief all measured observation can take place. And from measurement science and objectivity proceed. Few scientists are sufficiently interested, in my experience, in objectivity to actually apply their rationale to their own inner world. If they did they would realise that all objectivity arises from an untested assumption - that this finite observer exists. They have no proof whatsoever for it. There is nothing in their experience of being alive which can verify it, at least nothing I have ever come across. But without it objectivity collapses and one is left floundering around in a non-dual mish-mash.

This is, imo, quite relevant to this thread because...there is an inherent tendency in most people to avoid confrontation with this deep subjective-objective divide. It scares the crap out of them. A powerful "conspiracy theory" throws people right there. It challenges some of the deepest beliefs they have about themselves and their world. It can shake them to the core. This does not mean that conspiracy theories are actually true. But it does explain why many people really struggle to realistically assess them. They demand extreme objectivity because the stakes are high. And, in many ways, I think they're right to.

Nick
Unfortunately, there is nothing constructive to come from a debate over different forms of qualia between intersecting and sometimes diverging viewpoints. That is essentially the heart of what people here are talking about when discussing subjectivity. 'Science' in and of itself is neither subjective nor objective, it is only a process. The process that is science (or, for your familiarity, the scientific method) aims to reduce the level of subjective observation by distributing the same consistent set of data across the purview of as many different subjective observations as reasonably possible, in order to make note of the consistent qualities of that data that remain the same. When qualities turn out not being consistent across separate observations, the methodology is not to change the interpretation but is to look at the hypothesis and examine whether it needs to be reformulated.

This is the precise disconnect between those who cling tenaciously to conspiracy theories and those who look at the same data and come to a different and usually less sinister and less complex conclusion. Conspiracy theories do, initially, work from a valid hypothesis according to the terms of scientific method. However, what conspiracy theories do not engage in is a re-examination of the root hypothesis when faced with conflicting and inconsistent data. Instead, conspiracy theories tend to adjust the criteria for testing so make allowances for the inconsistencies to be ignored while exaggerating evidence that could be construed as supporting of the original hypothesis. If this is done in the traditional scientific communities, the person engaging in such behavior risks their career, their credibility, and most likely their job. There are no such checks and balances in the conspiracy theory environment. When faced with opposing evidence, the conspiracy theorist either ignores the data or accuses the data of being manipulated by the perpetrators of the original hypothesis-- the very idea that the original hypothesis could be flawed does not even enter the realm of possibility to the conventional conspiracy theory, whereas scientific method requires the scientist to always be prepared to go "back to the drawing board" when faced with conflicting data.

With regard to the Zeitgeist film (Part I), this poor behavior on the part of the 'researchers' for the film falls into the same category that conspiracy theorists reside, and not within the realm of historical or archaeological (scientific) reasearch. Since there does not exist at this point and time the ability to actually observe the events that happened 1000, 2000, 3000, or more years ago, the best way to determine the most likely scenario is to take what data can be collected from various sources of evidence-- writing, artifacts, remains, surviving architecture-- and try to reconstruct as much of what life may have been like during those times as possible, then come at that information with the hypothesis in question.

The reason the Zeitgeist documenters and a few other published 'researchers' have focused so highly on Egypt is because of the vast wealth of information that has been recovered from Egypt and is still in the process of being collected, documented, and catalogued. Understanding of the Egyptian written language is about 180 years old, and already we can determine that the Egyptian civilization as a whole were meticulous record keepers. While most archaeological work on ancient civilizations is done based on examination of artifacts first and only bits and pieces of written data, much of Egyptian information turned out being highly documented and, once we figured out how to translate the writing, explains much of the civilization in general. Even after having loads of artifacts and data damaged or destroyed over the centuries by conquering forces (from the Greeks and Romans all the way up to the Nazis), the wealth of archaeological data from Egypt outnumbers those of its neighbors by a large amount. Given also the more unstable nature of the bulk of the Mid-East for the last century compared to Egypt (which is more North African than Mid-Eastern), more Western researchers have been able to study artifacts and recorded information that still resides in Egypt, as well as the large number of artifacts that have been taken from the region for hundreds of years by conquering armies (France and Britain have huge collections, for instance). Egyptology is a much more popular archaeological 'hobby' because there many aspects of Egyptian civilization and culture that are, in relative terms, "new" to the fields of study because of the relatively recent (less than 200 years) discovery of the Rosetta Stone.

However, what gets less popular coverage when glancing over historical discovery is that the Mesopotamian and Indus River regions have a long and well-documented archaeological record as well, but the sources are not the same as nor are the discoveries as recent as those in Egypt, in most cases. Now, over the last 20-30 years and the discovery of the Nag Hammadi (often referred to as the Dead Sea Scrolls), popular study of the Mid-Eastern / Mesopotamian region has gained somewhat more momentum, but still does not enjoy the same popularity as Egyptology. While study of ancient architectures (like the ziggurats) still take place in the Mesopotamian region, other artifact study is dispersed and much of the study of ancient literature takes place in Italy, with notable research performed in Lebanon, Iran, and when it wasn't entrenched in wars during the past fifty years (which sadly happened far too often), the university in Baghdad, Iraq. Still, even the likes of the Great Ziggurat of Ur doesn't compare in terms of tourist curiosity like the Pyramids of Giza in Egypt. Considering that, for the last 20 years at least, American researchers were just as likely to be shot as they were to be welcomed in the Mesopotamian region, the focus when the world looked to the North African / Arabian Peninsula / Indus River region with regard to archaeology, the two most popular forms of research have been religious researchers-- usually for Christianity (and naturally Judaism since the formation of Israel)-- and Egyptologists.

This correlation of academic focus is the primary source for those who claim a straight, decisive connection between the religious practices of Egypt and the Jewish and Christian mythologies. Unfortunately, it is a case of attempting to paint correlation as causation, when more likely influences to the early Hebrews have significant records and histories available to study for those who honestly wish to examine the relationship all of these civilizations had with each other. Some of the civilizations that are ignored by these "correlation = causation" claims actually have direct hereditary and cultural connections to the Hebrew people (and thus the Jews of today), like the Sumerians (Abraham was from Ur, which is in Sumer) and the Canaanites (with whom the Hebrews of Moses' time shared the Promised Land). Jewish oral history even outright names kings like Nebudchanezzar (of Babylon) in at least partially historical context. Yet this wealth of information and direct lineage in language, culture, mythology, legend, government, and literature are often ignored or marginalized by these fringe theories that claim it must have been Egypt or Jesus must be a Jewish copy of Horus or Bacchus.

This is just an example of how the subjective nature behind the 'research' in Zeitgeist falls short of wider scientific study of the whole region within context. This is the difference between science and speculation, Nick, and why Zeitgeist falls squarely into the realm of wild (and grossly incorrect) speculation.
 
Unfortunately, there is nothing constructive to come from a debate over different forms of qualia between intersecting and sometimes diverging viewpoints. That is essentially the heart of what people here are talking about when discussing subjectivity. 'Science' in and of itself is neither subjective nor objective, it is only a process. The process that is science (or, for your familiarity, the scientific method) aims to reduce the level of subjective observation by distributing the same consistent set of data across the purview of as many different subjective observations as reasonably possible, in order to make note of the consistent qualities of that data that remain the same. When qualities turn out not being consistent across separate observations, the methodology is not to change the interpretation but is to look at the hypothesis and examine whether it needs to be reformulated.

This is the precise disconnect between those who cling tenaciously to conspiracy theories and those who look at the same data and come to a different and usually less sinister and less complex conclusion. Conspiracy theories do, initially, work from a valid hypothesis according to the terms of scientific method. However, what conspiracy theories do not engage in is a re-examination of the root hypothesis when faced with conflicting and inconsistent data. Instead, conspiracy theories tend to adjust the criteria for testing so make allowances for the inconsistencies to be ignored while exaggerating evidence that could be construed as supporting of the original hypothesis. If this is done in the traditional scientific communities, the person engaging in such behavior risks their career, their credibility, and most likely their job. There are no such checks and balances in the conspiracy theory environment. When faced with opposing evidence, the conspiracy theorist either ignores the data or accuses the data of being manipulated by the perpetrators of the original hypothesis-- the very idea that the original hypothesis could be flawed does not even enter the realm of possibility to the conventional conspiracy theory, whereas scientific method requires the scientist to always be prepared to go "back to the drawing board" when faced with conflicting data.

Thank you for a well-reasoned and informative post.

I think the only place I appear to differ in opinion to you is in regarding the "weight" that may be applied to different forms of "evidence." It is all subjective and, not to use this as a justification for writing or believing nonsense, the "degree of separation" between evidence from different sources is not as great as some on this list seem wont to imagine. Citations do not confer authority. That many people appear to believe something does not infer that it is true. In the absence of hard, empiric data we all inevitably struggle.

Regarding to your second paragraph above, I would say that the conspiracy theorist who does not change his opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary does so for the same reason as the conspiracy reactionary constantly chimes in with "prove it, prove it" parrot-fashion. (I'm surprised there's no "prove it" emoticon on this list). They are both being driven by subconscious motivations and neither is much interested in establishing truth.

Nick
 
Holy FSM, thesyntaxera is back. Found any evidence of that explosive compound that was mixed with the WTC concrete when the towers were built, thesyntaxera?

All we need to complete this thread is a "paranormal hat."

Yoiks.


I never said it was smart guy..that was pixymisa or whomever. All I said in our last encounter was basically that there is a lack of evidence to prove the official story completely...that you are asked to do the same for the official story as you are any conspiracy theory related to it when it comes to belief. You either buy one incredibly extravagant set of circumstances or another.

Thanks for sidetracking this thread with a personal attack though.
 
You need to go and re-watch the film.

Quote from the narrator: “And thus it is said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for three days, only to be resurrected and born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun gods share a crucifixion, three day death, and resurrection concept.”

Silly attempt to use King James English aside, the imagery used by the film as this is being said illustrates the modern Southern Cross constellation as if it were a clearly defined constellation. Presentation is important, and these guys presented it sloppily and out of order, which does not pass the scholastic muster.

To let those who are interested know, here are my formatted comments on Part I. Sorry, PDF only. These are just based on notes, and not the full collection of the data with everything fully and contextually listed.

I mean, I'm agnostic and a have been for a very long time. I have zero suspicion that there is any god for any religion whatsoever. However, the content in Zeitgeist was so poorly constructed that it contains the same intellectual dishonesty and agenda-driven misrepresentation of facts of some of the most fundemental of religious zealots. The part about the presentation that I find the most objectionable in the film is its zealous nature.

Yes but you don't know for sure what the people in the region thought of what stars, your just going on the assumption that they thought it was part of a greater constellation Centaurus(which it was) when obviously it was of enough significance to be named the southern cross at some point which could indicate that it had some significance before hand.

All I am saying is that the Sun(son) dying and being reborn in Virgo(virgin birth) is accurate and that if the southern cross was visible in Virgo during that time then perhaps with more research you have a case for associating the cross with the mythos.
 
Thank you for a well-reasoned and informative post.
:) I appreciate it, and the same for you.

I think the only place I appear to differ in opinion to you is in regarding the "weight" that may be applied to different forms of "evidence."
Instead of "weight" I would instead use the word "significance," but other than that I believe that we agree on this.

It is all subjective and, not to use this as a justification for writing or believing nonsense, the "degree of separation" between evidence from different sources is not as great as some on this list seem wont to imagine.
Aha, and this is why we disagree. :)

The problem with what you say regarding evidence and a "degree of separation" is that it still does not get around the fact that certain types of data are more subjective than others. For example, an eyewitness testimony in a murder trial does not hold an equal degree of accuracy in the face of reasonable doubt as would results from a DNA analysis. As a matter of fact, over the last ten to fifteen years a number of US court cases have been re-examined and quite a few individuals who had previously been convicted of crimes ranging from murder to robbery have been exonerated by things like DNA evidence. Many of these cases hinged on either eyewitness testimony or circumstantial evidence alleging to place the convicted person at the scene of the crime.

Now, I'm not accusing any single one of the eyewitnesses in those cases of lying on the stand. I don't believe there have been any charges placed against any eyewitnesses in the cases I've read about. The higher probability is that each and every one of those eyewitnesses honestly believed they saw what they described and that for them it was the 'truth', despite the discovery in some of those cases that the actual evidence points to a completely different individual being present during the crime. This doesn't make the eyewitness a liar, but it does call into question the viability and accuracy of that eyewitness account. Add to that a few more recent papers in psychological and criminal justice publications regarding the inherent difficulty of relying on eyewitness testimonies to acquire an accurate set of data (not an image or an idea, but hard data), and could an intellectually honest study of an event based on eyewitness testimony and give it the same credence as one with tested and verified data? The same concept applies to many forms of study, including archaeological / historical study and, pertinent to this forum, to conspiracy theories as well.

Citations do not confer authority. That many people appear to believe something does not infer that it is true. In the absence of hard, empiric data we all inevitably struggle.
Citations are a method for displaying that the claim is referenced in other works, and is not meant to confer authority but due diligence on the part of the person making the claim. Citations still need to be examined for relevance and for their own possible logical flaws, but what they offer as an advantage is a body of study to build on rather than blank speculation. Works that derive from a previously unsupported or unstudied hypothesis have further logical hurdles that they must be able to get past in order to acheive an academic veracity, whether as a reputable source or a beginning to a larger framework of other hypotheses. To its credit, the film Zeitgeist uses at least some citation as the launching point for their hypotheses, but many of their citations are of questionable veracity, of fringe schools of thought, or are derivatives of other works (like Loose Change) that are lacking in the basic due diligence of proper citation to begin with.

Regarding to your second paragraph above, I would say that the conspiracy theorist who does not change his opinion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary does so for the same reason as the conspiracy reactionary constantly chimes in with "prove it, prove it" parrot-fashion. (I'm surprised there's no "prove it" emoticon on this list). They are both being driven by subconscious motivations and neither is much interested in establishing truth.

I would agree, but only with a qualification. Dogmatic adherence to any school of thought does indeed reduce the rhetorical validity of the person holding it. However, there is a point in the act of reviewing hypotheses where examining every possibility as equally credible in nature is not only counterproductive, but actually causes a loss of scientific credibility and promotes questionable academic practices. Scientific method does not mean starting from scratch for every new hypothesis, it implicitly suggests the probability of previously tested accepted theoretical data to be useful in determining which contingencies in a hypothesis can be ruled out immediately. After all, you aren't going to find an astrophysicist who is realistically going to be open to the idea that the Sun is made up of an inordinate number of hamsters who are running on wheels so fast that they produce light, heat, radiation, and gravity. :)

On a smaller scale: there are no tiny electrical gnomes running around in your computer doing things. There are several sciences that together can explain exactly what is taking place for any given task you choose in your computer. There is no need for mysticism or speculation because the answers are already present. Whether you know of or understand the answers is irrelevant to the actual existence of the answers. They are present completely independent of you and myself, and under consistent environmental factors shall remain so regardless of the further existed of us both.

That is science. Speculation and mysticism both require at least one of us to speculate on the processes regardless of the answer, and that is the heart of most conspiracy theories.
 
Evidence is not subjective...science can be, but to say it is all subjective is not quite fair. I would say that in all human scientific endeavors there is an element of subjectivity. I think the most true scientists, and the hardest science, tends to be that with the least amount of subjectivity. As well of course, the best science is that which has repeatability and conforms to all the know laws of science at a given time in history.

To label all science as subjective is to demote it to the level of pseudoscience, which is completely inappropriate....IMO.

Welcome to the forum btw Nick.

TAM:)
 
Yes but you don't know for sure what the people in the region thought of what stars, your just going on the assumption that they thought it was part of a greater constellation Centaurus(which it was) when obviously it was of enough significance to be named the southern cross at some point which could indicate that it had some significance before hand.
If you mean I wasn't actually present thousands of years ago you are correct, but that doesn't change what I actually said. You see, if the people from thousands of years ago had charts in existence defining constellations (they did) in the night sky, then the only way to reasonably assert that the Southern Cross was actually used as a reference in the way described by the narrator is to find proof of it being used as such. No such evidence exists, and the only evidence that exists are the ones that sometimes (inconsistently) link it to the constellation we now call Centaurus.

Furthermore, how many different ways can I explain the difference in how the night sky looks to the observer in different hemispheres of the world so that it is clearly understandable? What became defined as the Souther Cross looks one way during Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, and looks to set in a different place in the Southern Hemisphere. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp to anyone who gave even nominal research to the concepts of astronomy (not astrology). So, not only is the narration-- which I quoted directly-- incorrect in its assumption of causation because of incorrect dating for when the constellation became a defined astronomical entity, but also in the fallacy that almost all religions would have the same point of view of the astrological depiction given by the film.

I don't know how many different ways I can say the same thing. The claims are false no matter how you try to spin them (pun intended).

All I am saying is that the Sun(son) dying and being reborn in Virgo(virgin birth) is accurate and that if the southern cross was visible in Virgo during that time then perhaps with more research you have a case for associating the cross with the mythos.
"Virgo" is a Greek name and not transferrable to all cultures and religions just because a film says so. Different civilizations saw different figures in the stars and constellations than the Greeks did. Many of the Greek associations, including the concept of Virgo, do not have equivalent mythological imagery in most other civilizations, including the Hebrews (and Jews), from which Christianity sprung. This is not unlike picking shapes out of the clouds-- just because you see a fluffy elephant does not make the shape absolutely a fuzzy element. Yes the shape of the constellation Virgo is shaped somewhat like the Greek letter 'M', and the mother of Jesus was named Mary. However, the "research" in the film cannot give any connecting process for how this information was transmitted to the Jews from the Greeks, or why Jews would use Greek letters as a basis for their religion in the first place when the Hebrew faith places such a high importance on language and words. Instead, since the "researchers" were able to find a loose set of possible similarities, they expect the viewer (through guided narration) to make the mental connection without any archaeological, historical, or cultural evidence to back it up.

You see, I don't have to prove that the claims in Zeitgeist were 'untrue', I simply have to point out the lack of actual connections that they are attempting to make. The claim that "the Sun(son) dying and being reborn in Virgo(virgin birth)" is incorrect because it assumes points of reference that are only recorded as present in two cultural civilizations (Greeks and Romans), while the rest of the world called the same stuff by different names and imagery. If you want to prove that what the film claims is true, the onus or burden of proof is on you to show historical, archaeological, or cultural documentation that states which civilizations are using Greek astrological symbology as their reference points. The burden is on you to prove that the shape of the cloud is an elephant and not a mouse with wings, a school of fish, or a cherub playing a harp. :)
 
Evidence is not subjective...science can be, but to say it is all subjective is not quite fair. I would say that in all human scientific endeavors there is an element of subjectivity. I think the most true scientists, and the hardest science, tends to be that with the least amount of subjectivity. As well of course, the best science is that which has repeatability and conforms to all the know laws of science at a given time in history.

To label all science as subjective is to demote it to the level of pseudoscience, which is completely inappropriate....IMO.

Welcome to the forum btw Nick.

TAM:)

Thank you!

The statement that science is subjective was not made with regard to the possibility that a scientific law, previously established, might not hold for all cases.

What I was referring to was a deep, inner flaw in the whole notion of objectivity. I believe it started something like this...

GreNME said:
Unfortunately, Nick, we are not discussing The World As Nick Sees It. We are discussing what is out there in the world,
Nick said:
Might I ask you, exactly what objective proof would you profer that the world is "out there?"
GreNME said:
Great counter! Unfortunately, I'm not going to give you any such proof. For all you know I am an intricately-developed figment of your imagination, and you needn't consider me with any more or less importance. I have no desire to get into a debate over qualia. I will clarify, though, that when I said "out there" I mean "everything that is external to yourself, despite how you may define those things internally."
Nick said:
I would like to pick this one up. Could you tell me if you are not going to give me "any such proof" because you are unable or because you are unwilling?

I don't think it got any further, which is a bit of a shame. I could have asked GreNME what he was referring to when he wrote "everything that is external to yourself"?

The world exists but you have no a priori evidence that you exist. There's a body, there are thoughts, there are feelings, there is the experience of identification with these things. There is the experience, extrapolated from this, of having a personal identity. But it is pure supposition to say that these are your thoughts, your feelings, that this is your body. You have no hard data to support the thesis that these things relate to you. (I'd like to hear them btw if you have)

Thus the mind constructs a limited notion of selfhood and, from this concept of a finite observer that it has hypothesised, can proceed to create systems of measurement, carry out experiments, formulate ideas about relationships, look for reproducibility, and all sorts of exciting things. But it is all founded on supposition. The core assumptions that allow objectivity to manifest remain unexamined.

This is what I personally meant when I said that science is subjective. Whether you consider this relates to the topic at hand is, of course, up to you!

Nick
 
:)
The problem with what you say regarding evidence and a "degree of separation" is that it still does not get around the fact that certain types of data are more subjective than others.

Oh. Well, I thought I was relating exactly that! There are degrees of separation in the relative subjectivity of data. it is not an "all or nothing" thing. It is not that this piece of data is absolutely subjective and this one absolutely objective. It is more shades of grey.

Citations are a method for displaying that the claim is referenced in other works, and is not meant to confer authority but due diligence on the part of the person making the claim. Citations still need to be examined for relevance and for their own possible logical flaws, but what they offer as an advantage is a body of study to build on rather than blank speculation. Works that derive from a previously unsupported or unstudied hypothesis have further logical hurdles that they must be able to get past in order to acheive an academic veracity, whether as a reputable source or a beginning to a larger framework of other hypotheses.

Yes, and this is all great. But it is important not to get lost here. Works that derive from new hypotheses or unstudied hypotheses may inevitably take longer to get established in the absence of empiric study, but this does not mean, of itself, that they are any less valid.

That something is considered "reputable" does not make an meaningful statement about its validity. It is hearsay.

Citations merely establish whether or not a subject has previously been researched or studied, or whether it has been previously studied in a like manner. They make absolutely no statement, of themselves, as to the veracity of the work, or the hypotheses contained within.

Nick
 
I don't think it got any further, which is a bit of a shame. I could have asked GreNME what he was referring to when he wrote "everything that is external to yourself"?

The world exists but you have no a priori evidence that you exist. There's a body, there are thoughts, there are feelings, there is the experience of identification with these things. There is the experience, extrapolated from this, of having a personal identity. But it is pure supposition to say that these are your thoughts, your feelings, that this is your body. You have no hard data to support the thesis that these things relate to you. (I'd like to hear them btw if you have)

Thus the mind constructs a limited notion of selfhood and, from this concept of a finite observer that it has hypothesised, can proceed to create systems of measurement, carry out experiments, formulate ideas about relationships, look for reproducibility, and all sorts of exciting things. But it is all founded on supposition. The core assumptions that allow objectivity to manifest remain unexamined.

This is what I personally meant when I said that science is subjective. Whether you consider this relates to the topic at hand is, of course, up to you!

Nick
Nick, the reason I did not and will not go into too deep a discussion with you on this is because it has very little bearing on the discussion at hand. Basically, if you wanted to take that philosophical route, then pretty much everything can be reduced to the equivalent of being figments of your imagination, and thus having no impact to you outside of what you wish to allow. That's all well and good inside a debate in a philosophy class, but not everything in the world needs to begin with a point-by-point establishment of qualia to suit some rhetorical model that you are trying to use to define science as you are claiming it is defined.

What I find most interesting about the discussion you want to have, Nick, is that it seems to imply you are absolutist in nature despite your framing of concepts in what could be mistaken for a relativistic model. It is lacking in nuance, and a philosophical model existing only or priori data as you are suggesting sets up the target of your discussion up for existing only within a tautological environment.

I have chosen to not go into too much of a discussion with you on the subject in order to keep the conversation civil. I know you certainly would not want to be accused of being dismissive of others because you refuse to acknowledge their assertation of existence based on your self-created model. Whether I personally exist or not has no bearing on the subject matter which is being discussed in this thread, and is thus irrelevant to the conversation. The only manner in which I can see it being used would qualify as personal commentary that may constitute an attack, and I think we can both agree there is no need for any such thing.

I've already pointed out that I have no desire to argue for or against any individual's faith in any religion or mysticism. There is no need to prove or disprove such a thing within the scope of the discussion on the Zeitgeist film. There is no need to prove or disprove my existence, my depth of qualia, priori, or anything else within the scope of the discussion of the Zeitgeist film. Most of all, though, there is a personal nature to the discussion you wish to have that, despite you seeming a nice enough individual, I have no desire nor reason to share with you within the scope of the topic at hand.

In other words: you seem a nice fellow, but I'm just into you that way, baby.
 

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