Just to be clear, could I ask...are you denying there exists any meaningful parity between spiritual symbol systems? Or that the story of Jesus doesn't fit within any such parity that might exist?
Parity? Nope, and no one has ever proven otherwise. Instead, efforts like the Zeitgeist film take superficial similarities and claim those as equivocations. Now, had you asked me if I thought there were similar recurring themes throughout many of the world's religions, especially the longest running ones, I would tell you that I'd agree. I would also point out that correlation does not equal causation.
Well, I don't know that I'd regard Qabalah, or Kabbalah, as a religion. Or, necessarily, as recent. Of course, such points can be debated pretty much ad infinitum to, in my experience, little satisfactory conclusion.
Unfortunately, Nick, we are not discussing The World As Nick Sees It. We are discussing what is out there in the world, and for all intents and purposes things like Kabbalah and Wicca, while often claimed to be ancient in origin by many practitioners, have only in recent decades existed in any organized fashion. Most of those who categorize these things don't count "nebulous mysticism based from culture x" as anything but "nebulous mysticism based from culture x" in pretty much every case.
Well, by Messiach, I meant mem, shem, yod, cheth, or, numerically 40, 300, 10, 8.
Admittedly this is going to be more for the casual reader than for you, Nick: what Nick is pointing out here are the Hebrew letters of the name. In case you notice a lack of vowels, Hebrew (and Arabic and Aramaic) consist primarily of consonants and the vowel sounds are determined by placement of the letters in conjunction with one another (in some cases) or by accents within the word to denote the softer sounds in the word. The letters he refers to do indeed make up the word (מָשִׁיחַ), though it is "mem, sh
in, and
chet." Nick got the numbers correct, though, so it's obvious he has done some homework. However, I submit again that if such elementary corrections need to be made regarding the words (even the names of the letters?), the connections weaken greatly.
So, Nick, to clarify what I was saying to you:
I am not saying that Greek and Hebrew are so related. What I am saying is that both languages originally used letters to relate numbers, through assigning different numbers to each letter in the alphabet.
This part is fact,
This allowed subtle patterns of meaning to be conveyed, not present through considering the meaning of the words alone.
This is speculation.
A simple example might be the Hebrew words Achad and Ahebar, both adding to the number 13 and meaning, respectively the words "One" and "Love." Going back to MSYCh, if you prefer not to believe that the scholars of the time crossed over between Greek and Hebrew isopsephia, that's up to you, but the example I quoted is well known in Qabalah circles and certainly books like The True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order or The Apostolic Gnosis will carry it and many more, though you would be right to say that the majority stick within one language.
"Prefer not to believe"? What are you getting at, Nick? Are you truly not aware that both the Hebrew and Arabic languages are offshoots of Aramaic, which was the primary language used among the most people in the ancient Mid-East,
including Israel, and lasted in general use at least until the first century CE? Furthermore, do you realize that the words that make up the Torah and what made its way into the rest of the Tanakh didn't even end up written down until some time between 1000 - 600 BCE? This means that the whole of the religious mythology, much like it was for the Greeks, was passed on from one person or group to another through the use of very long and very precise
oral histories.
You are correct in thinking that words and phrases are very important to the cultures from which these languages come. Words-- especially names (look up 'Hebrew names' for an example of what I mean)-- but only to various numerology fringe groups does the significance you are explaining get applied in any fashion.
Would you care to speculate on what it might be that causes that rush of positive feeling through the body when one feels there is a pattern? Might it be that the pattern currently in one's conscious perspective matches one existing in the unconscious?
Have you ever heard of Derren Brown?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
Mr. Brown does a good job of giving an exhibition of my thoughts on the matter. Basically, you experience the feeling you do because you
want to have the experience. Truly, the things your own mind is capable of convincing you is positively staggering (yes, this also applies to conspiracy theories). Mr. Brown displays the degree to which this is so.
GreNME said:
When some practice of numerology can explain to me the pattern behind Pi, then I will be impressed. Better yet, have them explain it in Base 2 form, as well. Base 10 is passe.
Yes, that would be some achievement! Are you saying you can predict values of Pi in base 10?
Ouch. I didn't say I (personally) could do any such thing. I'm just saying it would be cool to actually see some real results instead of the after-the-fact associations given by all numerology. Numerology has never been able to adequately predict anything. Honestly, though, if you know someone who believes otherwise you should be sure to let them know that they can quickly become a millionaire by proving it in the Randi Challenge.
As an aside, and possibly one that might not help so much here (!), could I ask if you're familiar with the work of University of Swansea maths professor Vernon Jenkins? He managed to derive reasonable approximations of the irrational number Pi from and e through putting the words and letters of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 (the two principle accounts of the creation) through the same simple formula. If you google him you'll no doubt find his method detailed, should you be interested.
Not really interested, but I have heard of it, yes. The methodology he used, however, was picking and choosing his sources by their "numerical" value in such a way that would fit the goal (Pi) when assembled. The intricate part of his work is the equational hoops he had to jump through working backwards to make things fit, I'm sure.
To tie this in with the Zeitgeist film, Nick, all I can say is that what you and I are discussing, as well as what the creators of the film (and indeed most CT 'documentaries') try to cover, are basically the process by which the human mind attempts to come to an understanding of things that are larger than its conventional perception by creating patterns and esoteric connections in order to have something stable from which to base their existence instead of chaos. It is the search for assurance in the face of the unsure. It's meaning out of randomness. People tend to call this their "Truth." So, if what you have found is your truth, Nick, I wish you the best. I still disagree that it holds the significance to the rest of the world that it does for you, but at the end of each of our days, our personal significances of discovery and study will be what fuel our dreams as we sleep. So more power to ya on that.
