94 percent of America's founding era documents mention the Bible

[brodski]

The difference (from other social conventions, institutions, or even laws) being that we aren't really beholden to christianity unless we wish to be. Most of us can choose to ignore it without legal or social sanction. We don't even have to pay lip service to it. What qualitative difference does the UK being a "christian state" make to my everyday life as an atheist? Or even my neighbours as a Muslim?

Outside of state education and some minor aspects of the legislative process and the date of certain bank holidays, none. Much like the fact that we are a monarchy has little to no impact on anyone's day to day lives (members of the Royal family aside). We are still a monarchy though.

 

[CFLarsen]

Why does "Nature's God" = religion to you? Is science now a religion? "Nature's God" refers to the physical forces / laws in the universe. Do you deny there are physical forces / laws in the universe that led to the creation of life on earth with a conscience?

Of course not. How do you know that "Nature's God" meant science?

 

[joobz]

Of course not. How do you know that "Nature's God" meant science?

How do you know it's not?
your desire to have some concrete answer to this misses the point entirely. Specifics were never introduced in the constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

This is as far from a basing a country on a specific religion as you can get.

 

[Big Les]

Outside of state education and some minor aspects of the legislative process and the date of certain bank holidays, none. Much like the fact that we are a monarchy has little to no impact on anyone's day to day lives (members of the Royal family aside). We are still a monarchy though.

Agreed. In fact, in my original post I drew a direct comparison with the monarchy as another anachronistic inheritance. But I didn't want to get mobbed (or worse yet, de-bagged) by royalists

I suppose my point (in a roundabout way) was that for this reason I don't object to the UK (and by analogy the US, though it's not my place to do so) being called a "christian country". But I think it's valid to challenge the assertion that either country is (and especially, was founded as) a "christian country" in light of attempts by the hardline christians to misrepresent history for their own ends. As long as "we" (atheists) don't go so far as to rewrite it ourselves of course.

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote
Yes. And I've noticed that he still ignores the fact that state-sponsored piracy is called privateering and that all contemporary maritime powers practiced it, including the United States.

Butbutbut, Dr. James Kennedy says that we're a Christian Nation^tm. That means that anything we do is ok. See? Therefore, it's not piracy or privateering, it's...it's...it's..it's being a good steward. Just like what's commanded in Genesis.

Well then you all ought to tell Christopher Hitchens to stop calling it piracy.

And I have a feeling that the million European and Americans sold into slavery would have preferred the word piracy.


From the article "Jefferson's Quran" by Christopher Hitchens:

A few years later, in 1786, the new United States found that it was having to deal very directly with the tenets of the Muslim religion. The Barbary states of North Africa (or, if you prefer, the North African provinces of the Ottoman Empire, plus Morocco) were using the ports of today's Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia to wage a war of piracy and enslavement against all shipping that passed through the Strait of Gibraltar. Thousands of vessels were taken, and more than a million Europeans and Americans sold into slavery. The fledgling United States of America was in an especially difficult position, having forfeited the protection of the British Royal Navy. Under this pressure, Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli...


http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/

 

[Ducky]

DOC, you do realize you made kmortis' point for him, right?

 

[Cleon]

Well then you all ought to tell Christopher Hitchens to stop calling it piracy.

And I have a feeling that the million European and Americans sold into slavery would have preferred the word piracy.

You keep having these "feelings."

Your "feelings" are not reality. Cope.

From the article "Jefferson's Quran" by Christopher Hitchens:

Hitchens is not a historian. He's a demagogue who's been making a name for himself by going on anti-Islam rants.



You don't get to pick and choose which treaties are Law and which to dismiss based on how well they back up your point of view, DOC.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Well then you all ought to tell Christopher Hitchens to stop calling it piracy.

If I meet him I'll bring it up.

And I have a feeling that the million European and Americans sold into slavery would have preferred the word piracy.

What of the American merchant seamen abducted by Royal Navy captains and impressed (forced to serve) on British vessels? Do you object to treaties signed with Great Britain because the individual victims of privateering likely didn't much care about the distinction? Or is your objection based more on religious concerns.

 

[joobz]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote
Yes. And I've noticed that he still ignores the fact that state-sponsored piracy is called privateering and that all contemporary maritime powers practiced it, including the United States.

Well then you all ought to tell Christopher Hitchens to stop calling it piracy.

And I have a feeling that the million European and Americans sold into slavery would have preferred the word piracy.


From the article "Jefferson's Quran" by Christopher Hitchens:

A few years later, in 1786, the new United States found that it was having to deal very directly with the tenets of the Muslim religion. The Barbary states of North Africa (or, if you prefer, the North African provinces of the Ottoman Empire, plus Morocco) were using the ports of today's Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia to wage a war of piracy and enslavement against all shipping that passed through the Strait of Gibraltar. Thousands of vessels were taken, and more than a million Europeans and Americans sold into slavery. The fledgling United States of America was in an especially difficult position, having forfeited the protection of the British Royal Navy. Under this pressure, Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli...
http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/

Well, this is rather amusing. Let's pretend for now that Hitchens is accurate on his analysis of the treaty.*
shall we continue the quote

negotiated by Jefferson's friend Joel Barlow, which stated roundly that "the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen." This has often been taken as a secular affirmation, which it probably was, but the difficulty for secularists is that it also attempted to buy off the Muslim pirates by the payment of tribute.

Which proves my point. The united states is secular

Also, further down that publication
Hitchen's has a few more words to add on the subject of Jefferson as a christian.

But then, he avoided public comment on faith whenever possible. It was not until long after his death that we became able to read most of his scornful writings on revelation and redemption (recently cited with great clarity by Brooke Allen in her book Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers). And it was not until long after his death that The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth was publishable. Sometimes known as "the Jefferson Bible" for short, this consists of the four gospels of the New Testament as redacted by our third president with (literally) a razor blade in his hand. With this blade, he excised every verse dealing with virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and other puerile superstition, thus leaving him (and us) with a very much shorter book. In 1904 (those were the days), the Jefferson Bible was printed by order of Congress, and for many years was presented to all newly elected members of that body. Here's a tradition worth reviving: Why not ask all new members of Congress to swear on that?

Doesn't seem like Jefferson was really a christian afterall. This must mean your entire claim of Jefferson's christianity was wrong. Will you admit as such?

*Please note that history shows that we had won the war by force of naval power. The treaty was in no way written by demand of muslim rulers. It was written to clarify to any nation that we were not a christian nation so any attempt to treat us as such is false. So you are left two believe either one of two things.
a.) Our fore fathers truly felt that the US was secular, and wished to make this clear to all nations in an effort to avoid any future religious wars.
b.) Our fore fathers were weak willed, easily broken, unhonorable men who would hide and lie about the united states being a christian nation to cater to other nations. Even though, they fought tooth and nail against the british to gain control of thier lands.

 

[kmortis]

DOC, you do realize you made kmortis' point for him, right?

Fundamentalism, meet parody. Parody, fundamentalism.




Oh, you've met?

 

[JoeEllison]

You don't get to pick and choose which treaties are Law and which to dismiss based on how well they back up your point of view, DOC.

Think about how much someone like that must hate America, that they would reject our laws in order to spread their stupid little lies. Of course, in the delusional mind of the Liars for Jesus, they DO get to pick and choose which laws count, even if their positions contradict each other. If a treaty makes their point, it counts. If a treaty doesn't, they say we really don't have to follow the law after all.

 

[joobz]

Think about how much someone like that must hate America, that they would reject our laws in order to spread their stupid little lies. Of course, in the delusional mind of the Liars for Jesus, they DO get to pick and choose which laws count, even if their positions contradict each other. If a treaty makes their point, it counts. If a treaty doesn't, they say we really don't have to follow the law after all.

Thankfully, the reverse isn't true.

Our laws have improved over time as ethics of equality and human rights have developed. Imagine if we actually used the bible as a moral code. We would still allow slavery, allow selling of children into slavery, punish by death anyone who was committed adultry, was homosexual, ate shellfish, insulted bald people, ...

 

[DingoBingo]

Most of the Founding Fathers were Christians that rejected the Trinity and the absurdities of the Old and New Testaments. They founded the USA on the fact that none of the different sects would ever agree with eachother on how to lead a true Christian life, with the biggest regards to Protestantism. Even Thomas Pain, cited by secular humanists so ardently, believed in a God.

 

[kmortis]

Most of the Founding Fathers were Christians that rejected the Trinity and the absurdities of the Old and New Testaments. They founded the USA on the fact that none of the different sects would ever agree with eachother on how to lead a true Christian life, with the biggest regards to Protestantism. Even Thomas Pain, cited by secular humanists so ardently, believed in a God.

1) That's a fair assessment
2) It's Paine, not Pain. Although that would be descriptive of how the establishment thought of him.
3) Paine's god was one of his own devising, having little to no relation to the Christian God.

 

[JoeEllison]

Most of the Founding Fathers were Christians that rejected the Trinity and the absurdities of the Old and New Testaments. They founded the USA on the fact that none of the different sects would ever agree with eachother on how to lead a true Christian life, with the biggest regards to Protestantism. Even Thomas Pain, cited by secular humanists so ardently, believed in a God.

Whether or not your details are true, that's why America's government is secular: because people can't always agree, and it isn't up to the government or "majority rule" to decide for us.

 

[DOC]

yes, I am very serious. All of your points (which was what I was referring you) has been clearly refuted. That exhbit { http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html }
is clearly only part of the story. The missing part is all of the ACTUAL LEGAL DOCUMENTS which claim otherwise.

Once again you make false statements. You made many false statements in your "Doc's proof" thread, which I pointed out. You responded to my claim but I still stand by my statement that you made many false statements in there.

Now you make the false statement that all my points have been refuted.

I said many states had official religions. Has that been refuted. I said the New Federal Gov't back then had much less power than our present Federal Gov't. Has that been refuted. I said Jefferson was a frequent church goer (in the Capitol building) for many years as president. Has that been refuted. I brought in the following points made by Dr. James Kennedy (post 31)

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.
2. The Articles of Confederation mention God.
3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.
4. The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."
5. Chaplains have been on the public payroll from the very beginning.
6. The Constitutions of all 50 states mention God in one way or another.
7. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
8. Our national anthem mentions God.
9. Every president has been sworn in on the Bible.
10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
11. Virtually every president has called for a national days of prayer, of fasting, of thanksgiving. This included James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.
12. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
13. Oaths in the courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
14. The Christmas and thanksgiving holidays are Christian holidays.
15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.
17. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust".
18. The freedom Shrine exhibits tell the story of American liberty, and God is mentioned in many if not most of these documents on public display.
19. The Bible was the primary textbook in our schools. Children learned their ABC's using Biblical words.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

Have they all been refuted. Your building a reputation for making false statements. But you don't seem to care, and you continue to make them. It's your credibility! If you don't care about it, I guess we shouldn't either.

 

[Ducky]

Once again you make false statements. You made many false statements in your "Doc's proof" thread, which I pointed out. You responded to my claim but I still stand by my statement that you made many false statements in there.

Now you make the false statement that all my points have been refuted.

I said many states had official religions. Has that been refuted. I said the New Federal Gov't back then had much less power than our present Federal Gov't. Has that been refuted. I said Jefferson was a frequent church goer (in the Capitol building) for many years as president. Has that been refuted. I brought in the following points made by Dr. James Kennedy (post 31)

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.
2. The Articles of Confederation mention God.
3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.
4. The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."
5. Chaplains have been on the public payroll from the very beginning.
6. The Constitutions of all 50 states mention God in one way or another.
7. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
8. Our national anthem mentions God.
9. Every president has been sworn in on the Bible.
10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
11. Virtually every president has called for a national days of prayer, of fasting, of thanksgiving. This included James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.
12. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
13. Oaths in the courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
14. The Christmas and thanksgiving holidays are Christian holidays.
15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.
17. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust".
18. The freedom Shrine exhibits tell the story of American liberty, and God is mentioned in many if not most of these documents on public display.
19. The Bible was the primary textbook in our schools. Children learned their ABC's using Biblical words.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

Have they all been refuted. Your building a reputation for making false statements. But you don't seem to care, and you continue to make them. It's your credibility! If you don't care about it, I guess we shouldn't either.

Yes they have, and I posted the link to a post that handles this. You ignored it, yet again:

This post dealt with all this BS then, and you never replied to it. Now you repeat it. Is this in hopes that we won't remember you were totally rebuked last time with it?

When can we expect you to post about the Trinity decision again without having addressed my points on it?

Edit:

You didn't respond to this refutation by Geni, either, you selectively quoted it and ignored most of the substance of it:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2967594#post2967594

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.

This is a lie.

3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.

Who cares? Where is the mention in the preamble or articles of the Constitution - where it would matter?

8. Our national anthem mentions God.

The last few words of a rarely sung fourth verse. Again, who cares?

15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

You mean those buildings that look like Greek temples?

16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.

This is a lie.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

I tried to do a Google for this reference. All I got was Bibliospam sites. Maybe someone could dig up the full article and see if there's any merit to the content.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="how+the+bible+made+america"

 

[joobz]

Once again you make false statements. You made many false statements in your "Doc's proof" thread, which I pointed out. You responded to my claim but I still stand by my statement that you made many false statements in there.

DOC, you are repeating the same hypocritical lie when I proved it to be a lie:

I would like to present the case that DOC has knowingly and repeatedly lied in this thread. This is of particular interest because he has knowingly lied when accusing me of stating "falsehoods".

The very title of this thread could be considered a falsehood, so that told me a little what to expect.

1)the very title of the forum is false because I never said the facts I give are "Proof of Christianity".

1)the very title of the forum is false because I never said the facts I give are "Proof of Christianity".

Yes, but somebody new to the forums might read the deceptive title of the thread and be and be influenced by its falsity and then not even bother to go into a thread because of it. That's why there are libel laws on the books.

When Ask why he was posting these thread, his reply was

To inform -- what you do with that information is your business.

However, in another thread, he had argued against my claim of him dodging the "so What" question when it related to Peter. His reply was

So when I talk about Peter being in Rome for a few years and then in post 13

Ducky asks "so what" and I answer

Well Christ did call Peter "the Rock" that he would build his Church on. If the altar of St. Peter's Basilica (maybe the biggest Church in the world) is built directly above the grave of Peter that would be quite a prediction ol' Christ made.

And then you say I didn't answer the question and even state in a forum you put up about me that the question goes unanswered, I really think you "lose credibility". You can't give a more direct answer as to why Peter being in Rome is important. St Peter's Basilica is in Rome in case you didn't know.

Please note the two bolded statements. He admits that his presentation of that was to provides support to the validation of christianity.

As a result, his accusations were completely false. He knowingly posted this information "not to inform" but to support/prove that christianity is valid.

As a result, my original hypothesis in this thread has been validated by DOC himself.

go to the original post for the links of the nested quotes.

You have 3 options here.
1.) tell me why the quoted argument is wrong.(which you can't)
2.) apologize for accusing me of making false statements (which would be the honorable thing to do)
3.) Ignore it entirely and continue to claim that I make false statements. (Which would not only be a lie but a hypocritical lie)

DOC, it is rather crazy to accuse me of making false statements when it is demonstrabably obvious you are lying about it. In your version of morality, is it acceptable to be a hypocritical liar? You had previously stated that we use the word liar very loosely, I disagree. I have refrained from using it until it is obvious when someone lies.

You obviously lie.

 

[Garrette]

There have been scattered responses to DOC's list of 19 (and thanks to Ducky for linking to one of my own responses; that happens rarely enough for me to say "woohoo!" when it does).

So I have taken the liberty of creating a consolidated response.

I hold out little hope that this will have any effect on DOC’s behavior or beliefs, but I post it for the benefit of lurkers.

DOC claims that the items on this list:

a. Demonstrate that the US was founded as a Christian nation, and
b. Have not been refuted.

He is wrong on both counts.

A few of the responses are me quoting myself. On some, I have taken links provided by others here to formulate my own response.

None of it is difficult to find with even minimal research.

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.

No, it does not.

It mentions "God" one time and one time only. It does so in the phrase "nature and nature's God" which is a very deistic turn of phrase and not a christian one.

It also mentions "their Creator", "the Supreme Judge" and "Divine Providence." If you or Kennedy want to argue that these terms are equivalent not only to "God" but to a "Christian God" and further to an indication that the US is founded on the bible, you will need to provide a much more comprehensive argument.

2. The Articles of Confederation mention God.

No, they do not.

It uses the phrase "Great Governor of the World." You'll need much more of an argument to demonstrate this means an establishment of christian principles, which, very much to the point, the Articles of Confederation do not address in the slightest. The Articles concern themselves solely with the secular governance of the colonies. That's it.

3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.

You have got to be kidding. The fact that someone uses the widely accepted conventional dating method is an indication of Christian foundations? If you truly believe this, you are a lost cause.

4. The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."

Excellent! You are Anglican, I take it. That phrase, and the long, flowery phrase that follows it is in reference to King George III, "defender of the faith." That's "Anglican" faith.

So your argument is that the United States is an Anglican nation.

drkitten pointed out that this verbiage is a holdover from England's Catholic days so DOC is actually arguing that the US is a Catholic nation.

5. Chaplains have been on the public payroll from the very beginning.

This is true. In my opinion, it constitutes the closest to a departure from the idea of separation of church and state by the founders. It is crucial to note, however, that the authority of the chaplaincy is limited to the delivery of prayers. The chaplain has neither voice nor vote in the deliberation of legislation.

If you cannot see the importance of that lack, then you need to seriously look at your biases.

6. The Constitutions of all 50 states mention God in one way or another.

Wrong, both in fact and in spirit.

The constitution of Colorado never uses the word God. In the preamble, it mentions “Supreme Ruler of the Universe.” It also uses the word “Lord” twice in reference to a year, i.e., “the Year of Our Lord.”

Iowa’s constitution says “Supreme Being,” followed by a referent “Him,” and “Year of Our Lord.”

Washington’s constitution says “Supreme Ruler of the Universe.”

West Virginia’s constitution has no mention at all.

Virginia says “Creator” and uses the word “God” only in the oath of office (“so help you God.”)

Hawaii uses the phrase “Divine Guidance” and uses “God” in the sense insurance companies use it, i.e., “act of God.”

So the claim is factually incorrect. It is incorrect in spirit in that it implies that all the constitutions that use the word God use it in an attempt to create a christian government. In nearly all the constitutions this is transparently untrue. The writers mention God because they acknowledge their personal faith and the faith of the majority of their constituents, but they do so only in the preamble. The substance of the constitutions stay completely away from mentioning God or from stating that the government will operate on Christian principles.

Note that my analysis does not apply universally. Vermont’s constitution has some explicitly Christian language. But Vermont hardly constitutes “all.”

7. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

Yes. The verse is Leviticus 25:10 and reads ”Proclaim LIBERTY throughout all the Land unto all inhabitants thereof.”

It was also cast in 1753, well before the Revolutionary War or the Declaration of Independence.

So what?

8. Our national anthem mentions God.

Yes. In the fourth, never sung, verse. Do you know when it became the national anthem?

Hint: It was 1931 so it has nothing to do with the founding.

9. Every president has been sworn in on the Bible.

Not true.

Franklin Pierce swore on a law book instead of the bible.

John Quincy Adams swore on a law book.

Theodore Roosevelt used no book.

Herbert Hoover used a bible but did not swear on it (he affirmed instead).


More to the point, the constitution makes no mention of the bible when discussing the oath of office. It merely says that the president-elect may choose to swear or to affirm. The text of the oath has no religious words, including “so help me God,” which George Washington added on his own and which most presidents have also included because of the tradition thus established.

10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Even if true, so what? Presidents do not give up their individual rights or faiths merely by virtue of becoming president. They are allowed to pray. The tolerance written into the constitution is a wonderful thing. You should try practicing it sometime.

But I don't believe you. Try Jefferson and Jackson for exceptions.

And by the way, I imagine I can find quite a few abortions at which prayers were uttered. Are you ready to accept the christian nature of abortion clinics based on that tidbit?

11. Virtually every president has called for a national days of prayer, of fasting, of thanksgiving. This included James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.

The unconstitutional lapses of individual presidents are not an argument for the christian foundation of the nation.

The National Day of Prayer was legislated in 1952, not at the founding of the nation.

It skirts unconstitutionality by not mentioning a specific faith, so if you’re going to use it to argue for a religious nation you have to argue for an Islamic nation, a Jewish nation, and a nation of all faiths that encourage prayer. That sort of includes paganism.

12. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

No. Washington’s second address does not mention a deity at all. The word “god” does not appear until Monroe’s second inaugural address in 1821.

Washington, Adams, and Jefferson all referenced a deity, but none of them used the word God, and none of them used the word Christ, and all their references were definitively either deistic or Unitarian in context.

13. Oaths in the courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

Always? Without fail?


1. I don’t believe you. Prove it.

2. They did not. “So help me God” has never been required at a federal level and rarely required at a state level. The fact that most people use it speaks to their individual faith (and to the strength of societal pressure) and not to the founding of the nation. Some state constitutions require it, but that is not federal, and if you think it desirable for a state constitution to require all witnesses, regardless of faith, to swear on a bible and invoke God, then you are a bigot.

14. The Christmas and thanksgiving holidays are Christian holidays.

No. The impetus came from the majority Christian population, but the federal holidays themselves are not Christian, which you can easily tell by researching the intent and the text of the laws.

In regard to Thanksgiving, it’s actually from the Iroquois Thanksgiving which is hardly Christian at all.

Don’t believe me? That’s okay. I doubt you’ll look it up to see that my claim is not without merit.

Thanksgiving as the US practices it had been an unofficial holiday declared by every president beginning with Lincoln in 1863, It only became an official holiday when Franklin Roosevelt wanted to provide extra shopping days for Christmas to the retailers as an aspect of his get-out-of-the-depression agenda.

The federal regulation enumerating federal holidays merely gives the date and the name. It does not prescribe any activity or motivation. It does not even mention the origin or a religion.

The fact that two of the ten federal holidays (eleven in those years with a presidential inauguration) ultimately have religious roots merely points to the fact that the government is practical enough to bow to an oppressive majority.

The fact that Thanksgiving wasn’t regularly observed until 1863 (and not officially law until 1941) and that Christmas was not officially observed until 1870 is proof enough that you cannot use these holidays to demonstrate a christian founding.

15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

Aside from the fact that the monuments reflect the personal faith of both the person(s) memorialized and the builder(s) of the memorial, and do not demonstrate any official favor of a religion, and aside from the fact that not all monuments have such references (Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s memorial has no religious references at all), you need only bear in mind one of the God references in these memorials:

”I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

That’s from the Jefferson Memorial. It’s a quotation from one of Jefferson’s letters to Benjamin Rush.

You really, really need to examine how that quotation demonstrates that your claims about Jefferson are wrong and your assertions in this thread would rightly draw his criticism.

16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.

An utter lie. On the outside of the building Moses is represented once, but he is accompanied by Confucius and Solon (a favorite of mine). Moses is given no place of prominence amongst the group.

Inside the building Moses is represented once more, this time holding blank tablets, but he is again in a group (without prominence) including not only Confucius and Solon, but also Mohammed, Hammurabi, and Justinian.

Justinian is also on the outside of the building near a trial scene from the Iliad, a Roman praetor, Julian, and King John, among others.

Let me emphasize the presence of Julian, as in Julian the Apostate. That’s right. The guy who tried to remove Christianity from the empire.

That’s twice for Moses. The ten commandments appear one more time, though. They are in the lower corner of the courtroom door, definitely not in a place of prominence, and without any text on them, merely the roman numerals I through X.

So that is a combined total of three appearances, none of which are prominent, and which are greatly outnumbered by the many other figures also represented.

Did you note Mohammed’s representation? It’s important.

17. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust".

Yes. It was added in the 1950s.

Across from the speaker’s rostrum is a depiction of Moses, too. But there is also a depiction of Hammurabi, and of Solon, and of Mohammed, and of Lycurgus, and of Julian the Apostate, and quite a few others, much like in the Supreme Court building.

Cherry-picking doesn’t work.

18. The freedom Shrine exhibits tell the story of American liberty, and God is mentioned in many if not most of these documents on public display.

You are flatly wrong and have demonstrated again that you don’t even read your own sources.

See details below, but here is the summary:

30 documents total.

14 make no mention of god or religion.

2 mention religion only to limit it.

2 mention a supreme being in a Unitarian sense.

3 mentions a deistic supreme being.

1 is by someone not even a part of the government at the time.

6 mention a supreme being only as a nod to his existence but exclude that being from any consideration in the substance of the document.

1 mentions Jews.

Only 1 (Lincoln’s Second Inaugural) can remotely be interpreted as suggesting that the christian god should be a part of decisions in governance.


Here are the individuals items:

The Mayflower Compact: Mentions god several times to indicate religious persuasion but leaves him out of the intent of the document: “convenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience.”

Declaration of Independence: No christian god here.

Benjamin Franklin’s Epitaph: No god or religion at all here.

The Treaty of Paris: Discussed above.

George Washington’s Address to Colonel Nicola: No mention of god or religion at all.

Patrick Henry’s Instructions to George Rogers Clark: No mention of god or religion.

The Constitution of the United States: Mentions religion only to limit government’s involvement with it.

The Bill of Rights: Mentions religion to ensure individuals retain freedom of it.

The Northwest Ordinance: No mention of god or religion.

First Inaugural Address of President George Washington: “Almighty Being” “His” “Great Author” “His” Mainly Unitarian in outlook.

Farewell Address of President George Washington: “Allwise dispensor of human blessings”
Creator” Still Unitarian.

First Inaugural Address of President Thomas Jefferson: “overruling Providence” “Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe” I’d say deistic.

The Star Spangled Banner: 6th line (out of 9) in the 4th verse: “In God is our trust.”

Jackson’s Letter Describing the Battle of New Orleans: No mention of god or religion.

The Monroe Doctrine: No mention of god or religion.

The Gettysburg Address: “this nation, under God,”

The Emancipation Proclamation: 3 uses of “A.D.” when indicating year. One “Almighty God.”

Second Inaugural Address of President Abraham Lincoln: “Bible” once; “God” six times; “His” three times; “the Almighty” once; “He” twice; “Him” once; “the Lord” once. Fifteen references. Lincoln was Christian as far as I can tell. But the government was not, and he was not a founder.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: No mention of god or religion.

Robert E. Lee’s Letter Accepting the Presidency of Washington College: No mention of god or religion.

Theodore Roosevelt’s Letter on Cuba: No mention of god or religion.

First Inaugural Address of President Woodrow Wilson: Last sentence: “God helping me…” An expression of individual faith.

The Nineteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: No mention of god or religion.

President Franklin Roosevelt “Four Freedoms” Address to Congress: “God” twice. Once at the beginning and once at the end. Nowhere in the substance.

Selection of General Eisenhower as Supreme Commander of Overlord: No mention of god or religion.

McAuliffe’s Christmas Message: No mention of god or religion. And this is in a CHRISTMAS message!

The German Instrument of Surrender WWII: No mention of god or religion.

Instrument of Surrender in the Pacific WWII: No mention of god or religion.

Inaugural Address of President John F. Kennedy: “God” twice; “His” twice. JFK was Catholic. Is the US a Catholic nation?

Martin Luther King’s “I have a Dream” Speech: “God’s children” three times; “Jews” once; “Gentiles” once; “Protestants” once; “Catholics” once; “Gold Almighty” once. Besides the fact that MLK was not a member of the government and did not set government policy, I suppose you are prepared to claim that the US is a Jewish nation?

Susan B. Anthony’s Fight for Women’s Rights: No original references to god or religion. There is one quotation of the Declaration of Independence including “Creator.”

19. The Bible was the primary textbook in our schools. Children learned their ABC's using Biblical words.

Ah. So they didn’t use it to learn religion, just the alphabet. Perhaps because textbooks as such were rare or nonexistent at the founding of the nation and the most common book to be found was the bible?

Perhaps it is relevant that as actual textbooks became available the bible was discarded as a textbook?

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

Ah, yes. Newsweek. That pillar of rational inquiry and unbiased reporting. Tell me, please, what you think of Newsweek's stance on the Michael Newdow lawsuits?


So, yes, DOC, your entire list has been refuted. “Refuted” meaning that they are shown to factually incorrect (most cases) or shown not to demonstrate what you claim they demonstrate (a few cases).

You have very small ground on which to build a christian edifice.