94 percent of America's founding era documents mention the Bible

[Angus McPresley]

Not so. Many of the states had official religions and for this reason I believe the founders wanted to leave that up to the states.

Which only says to me that they didn't want Christianity installed at the highest levels, hence they didn't want a "Christian nation". Unless I am misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

What a reach. You'd think that the Constitution, which lays down the law of the land, would be replete with references to Jebus if the founding fathers had meant this to be a Christian nation, wouldn't you?

They tried to rectify that oversight with a Christian Amendment changing the wording of the Preamble.

All attempts have failed miserably.

 

[DOC]

Which only says to me that they didn't want Christianity installed at the highest levels, hence they didn't want a "Christian nation". Unless I am misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

One of their main goals was to get all of the states to go along with the constitution. Do you think some of the states would go along with a constitution that tinkered with their official religion -- No. This is also why slavery was not banned in the constitution, Because southern states never would of approved of it.

Basically all the Constitution says (regarding religion) is that Congress can't make an official religion. That power was left up to the states if they chose to do so. It wasn't until Hugo "KKK" Black and Leo "ACLU committee member" Pfeffer came along in 1947 that the establishment clause of the founders was tinkered with and the "legal term" Separation of Church and State was born. And things like kicking the boy scouts out of their 90 year leases could occur.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” [July 4th, 1821]

Uh Oh. There goes DOC citing untrustworthy sources again.

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/misq5.htm

 

[kmortis]

One of their main goals was to get all of the states to go along with the constitution. Do you think some of the states would go along with a constitution that tinkered with their official religion -- No. This is also why slavery was not banned in the constitution, Because southern states never would of approved of it.

Basically all the Constitution says (regarding religion) is that Congress can't make an official religion. That power was left up to the states if they chose to do so. It wasn't until Hugo "KKK" Black and Leo "ACLU committee member" Pfeffer came along in 1947 that the establishment clause of the founders was tinkered with and the "legal term" Separation of Church and State was born. And things like kicking the boy scouts out of their 90 year leases could occur.

I've got it! You're Andy Kaufmann, come back to entertain us again with your particular brand of comedy stylings! Sweet!

 

[Ducky]

I'm not sure, but these facts are along the same line.

According to the author of the listed website the following info is from Dr. James Kennedy's book, " What if America was a Christian Nation Again"


http://www.truthpizza.org/post/nitardy7.htm


"Below I have listed 19 of 25 items that show the Bible (Theism) and God were a basic foundation of our country.

1. The Declaration of Independence mentions God four times.
2. The Articles of Confederation mention God.
3. The Constitution is explicitly signed, "in the year of our lord". Now in our schools BC has been changed to BCE.
4. The treaty of Paris in 1783, negotiated by Ben Franklin, John Adams, and John Jay, acknowledged the Trinity as it made official our separation from Great Britain. It began "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity."
5. Chaplains have been on the public payroll from the very beginning.
6. The Constitutions of all 50 states mention God in one way or another.
7. The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
8. Our national anthem mentions God.
9. Every president has been sworn in on the Bible.
10. Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
11. Virtually every president has called for a national days of prayer, of fasting, of thanksgiving. This included James Madison, Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan.
12. Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
13. Oaths in the courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
14. The Christmas and thanksgiving holidays are Christian holidays.
15. God is mentioned all over Washington, D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
16. The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and of the ten commandments. A total of twenty depictions.
17. Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust".
18. The freedom Shrine exhibits tell the story of American liberty, and God is mentioned in many if not most of these documents on public display.
19. The Bible was the primary textbook in our schools. Children learned their ABC's using Biblical words.

Newsweek said some years ago, "Historians are now coming to realize that the Bible , even more than the Constitution, founded the nation of America."

This post dealt with all this BS then, and you never replied to it. Now you repeat it. Is this in hopes that we won't remember you were totally rebuked last time with it?

When can we expect you to post about the Trinity decision again without having addressed my points on it?

Edit:

You didn't respond to this refutation by Geni, either, you selectively quoted it and ignored most of the substance of it:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2967594#post2967594

 

[Big Les]

To me, to say that the UK (or the US) are "christian nations" is pretty meaningless. It's practically an accident of history that christianity was the dominant religion when our respective nations were founded, and that as a result the majority religion is still christianity. I see it as an historical inheritance that for most is an irrelevance, that the rest of us take note of and give due respect to but largely ignore as far as influence upon our lives goes. Thus you could call the UK or the US "christian countries", but in many ways, so what? Let's continue to push for secular government and multi-faith/non-faith countries.

I would suggest that the UK at least, could be just as legitimately be described as a "secular country" as a "christian country" (as geni put it).

 

[Foster Zygote]

I wonder if DOC will ever get to a deeper point. Like "The United States is officially a Christian nation and therefore..."

 

[joobz]

I wonder if DOC will ever get to a deeper point. Like "The United States is officially a Christian nation and therefore..."

He'll never get to any deeper point, because he knows deep down that the initial premise is wrong. He knows that this isn't a christian nation.

It's why he ignores my posts when I quote the treaty of tripoli

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

It's hard for him to argue with a document that is considered the law of the land.

 

[JoeEllison]

Originally Posted by JoeEllison View Post
Yeah, instead the Constitution contradicts the Ten Commandments...




Why?

Have you read the Ten Commandments? Have you read the Bill Of Rights?

When you have, get back to me. You really can't be this dense, can you?

 

[GreNME]

Most of the members of the US goverment are nominaly christian. US is currently ruled by a christian goverment.

No offense, but the first thing I think of when I hear things like this are the multitude of times when I have point out (to family, friends, or whomever) things like "yeah, isn't that senator who just got in trouble a Christian as well?" and get back something to the effect of "he's not a good Christian." Well, since the crux of the debate seems to be the religious credentials of the government in general, who is a good example of a Christian in government? Not to get all godwin-ish or anything, but this is exactly why I hate discussions of the religiosity of the leaders in the Nazi Party, even though many of them were at least attendees of curches and some of their publications cite Martin Luther to a noticable degree on some occasions. The point isn't that religious political leaders are bad, but that people who are arguing favorably for the religiosity of governments and laws are usually only willing to accept examples of benevolent successes as being religiously motivated while attributing all else to the "other side."

The second thing I think of is: hrm... well, it seems I can't post the image, but it is the popular pie chart showing Christians as the vast majority over everything else, with a cartoon speech bubble coming from it exclaiming "Help, we're being oppressed!" The image is obviously satire, but it illustrates an underlying motive behind much of the revisionist historical commentary by the religious right. After all, if the good-old U-S-of-A was formed from the Body of Christ, as it were, then all this secular humanism taking control of the nation would naturally be an attempt to attack the very foundations upon which America was built. Stir the patriot by pulling the strings of faith, and you can justify social jingoism to an impressive degree.

 

[CFLarsen]

unless the contention is that "In the year of our lord" is mentioning the bible, I find those numbers hard to believe. It would appear to me to be pulled from someone's rear end.

Constitution: No mention of God or religion, except of course in the amendment regarding "congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of..."

Take a look at the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...

Sorry, but that went out the window with the "In God We Trust" on the currency:

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins.
Source: US Dept. of Treasury

Declaration of Independence: No moention of religion, sans a vague reference to a "creator"

Not quite:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

And the "Creator" is not vague at all:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator

Creator clearly means "God". These rights are endowed. Given to you. That's an act, done by someone or something.

Don't kid yourself. And don't quote selectively.

Articles of Confederation: No mention of the bible I can find.

Any other documents I am missing? I seem to recall one state congressional document that wished everyone a merry christmas, but iirc it was a resolution passed simply to wish people a merry christmas.

Don't say that the founding papers of the United States don't mention God. That's historical revisionism.

 

[joobz]

Take a look at the first amendment:

Sorry, but that went out the window with the "In God We Trust" on the currency:


Not quite:

And the "Creator" is not vague at all:

Creator clearly means "God". These rights are endowed. Given to you. That's an act, done by someone or something.

Don't kid yourself. And don't quote selectively.



Don't say that the founding papers of the United States don't mention God. That's historical revisionism.

God doesn't mean christian god. There is no reason to infer that it does.

 

[CFLarsen]

God doesn't mean christian god. There is no reason to infer that it does.

I don't. And that's not the point. The point it that it mentions a supernatural, religious creator.

Even so: Do you really think they meant Shiva?

 

[Cleon]

Don't say that the founding papers of the United States don't mention God. That's historical revisionism.

Ducky didn't say any such thing.

I trust you will apologize for and correct your error post-haste.

 

[joobz]

I don't. And that's not the point. The point it that it mentions a supernatural, religious creator.

Even so: Do you really think they meant Shiva?

No, I think they had a diestic view in mind. which is consistent for the time.
the argument is that the claim that this country was founded on christian principles is incorrect. There is an element of revisionism that is going on that has claimed that the forefathers intended religious freedom to only mean between denominations and that we live in a christian country.

The primary argument they make is the number of references to a god that is made. While true, there is never a claim that it is the god of abraham. indeed, the treaty of tripoli states clearly that the founders of this nation didn't use the christian faith as a founding principle at all. As such, it has no inherent emnity to any other religious nation. this is a very important point and one that should not be minimized.

 

[brodski]

No, I'm pretty sure it is a constitutional monarchy.

And? It is a Constitutional Christian monarchy. The motto of the English crown, as sued by some remnant departments is my God and my right, our head of state is also the head of our established church, our national antehrm is God save the queen, and senior Anglican Bishops mathematically get seats in parliment.
By any reasonable definition of a Christian state, the UK fits it. ironically, religion plays only a minor role in our politics, and being overtly religious can do more harm than good to a politicians carer (see Ruth Kelly, or Tony Blair's refusal to speak about his faith“we don't do the religion thing”).

 

[CFLarsen]

Ducky didn't say any such thing.

I trust you will apologize for and correct your error post-haste.

His post clearly is a rejection of the mention of a deity. With exceptions, of course, yet they are attempted to be explained away.

Why do you ignore his selective quoting?

No, I think they had a diestic view in mind. which is consistent for the time.

Awhat? How do you figure that?

the argument is that the claim that this country was founded on christian principles is incorrect. There is an element of revisionism that is going on that has claimed that the forefathers intended religious freedom to only mean between denominations and that we live in a christian country.

The primary argument they make is the number of references to a god that is made. While true, there is never a claim that it is the god of abraham. indeed, the treaty of tripoli states clearly that the founders of this nation didn't use the christian faith as a founding principle at all. As such, it has no inherent emnity to any other religious nation. this is a very important point and one that should not be minimized.

Whoa.

First, the Treaty of Tripoli is from 1796, somewhat after the formation of the US.

Second, it doesn't matter if the god in question is the abrahamic god. What matters is that it is a god.

 

[brodski]

I would suggest that the UK at least, could be just as legitimately be described as a "secular country" as a "christian country" (as geni put it).

the UK may be a "secular country" but it is a Chirstian state. And yes, it is an accident of history, but then, what isn't?

 

[Cleon]

His post clearly is a rejection of the mention of a deity. With exceptions, of course, yet they are attempted to be explained away.

Why do you ignore his selective quoting?

No, his post is clearly a rejection of the claims made in the OP (and subsequently by DOC). At no point did Ducky say, hint, or imply that "the founding papers of the United States don't mention God." That is entirely your invention.


Why can't you simply own up to your mistake? Is it that difficult to say "oh, hey, I jumped the gun a little, my mistake?"