Was Christopher Columbus obsessed with the Bible

[kmortis]

The allies, which included that great secular nation, the united states!

And those horrible godless commies, the Ruskies.

 

[Hawk one]

KMortis: In fact, the Russians' efforts against the Christian Nazi Germany were pretty much amongst the most important factors in defeating said Germans.

But of course DOC would never admit to that, because then he'd have to choose honesty above religion.

 

[Herzblut]

Some sources would help me rescind my position, herz, despite your caustic style.

I have problems understanding your position. I just find your references void.

Could you summarize your essential points and point to the best evidence you can find for those?

Thanks Herz

 

[joobz]

Bull. Orsenigo was the Nuncio for Germany and, in this role, participated in official state reception ceremonies. Like the one for Hitler's 50th birthday.


Megabull. Pacelli was not the organizer of state receptions for the German Reich. Totally absurd.


Bull. There was no such Cardinal of Berlin.

Your source is a piece of junk. You might want to invest some minimal time studying fundamentals of 20th century history to enable yourself recognizing that on your own.

Herzblut

Some sources would help me rescind my position, herz, despite your caustic style.

How about you repost and we teach DOC a lesson in admitting a poor source doesn't support a position?

I have problems understanding your position. I just find your references void.

Could you summarize your essential points and point to the best evidence you can find for those?

Thanks Herz

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Ducky had a reasonable request. If you have evidence to call his claims (and his source) garbage, present it. I think everyone here would be interested in learning more. I definitely would. It isn't a subject i'm extremely familiar worth and it would be educational.

However, if all you planned on doing was making unsupported assertions, than don't be expected to be taken seriously.

 

[kmortis]

I have problems understanding your position. I just find your references void.

Could you summarize your essential points and point to the best evidence you can find for those?

Thanks Herz

He's asking for counter references. Why do you find his points "void"? What backin evidence do you put forth to support your position, or is it just your opinion?

 

[Herzblut]

KMortis: In fact, the Russians' efforts against the Christian Nazi Germany were pretty much amongst the most important factors in defeating said Germans.

I agree. And the Soviets had to face by far the most losses in WW2. Which Stalin didn't give a damn about, btw. Stalingrad was a turning point of the whole war.

But, why do you say "Christian Nazi Germany" ? Were the top Nazis mostly Christians? Was "Christianity" kinda state religion?

Herzblut

 

[Herzblut]

Oh please, don't be obtuse. Ducky had a reasonable request.

I don't deny this. Just that I don't see it.
My response, that you cited above, was an answer to his post #188, where Ducky said:

Right.

Source.

Sorry, but what's that, joobz? Where is which claim formulated?

In post #205 we read:

Let's sum up:

1) The pope and the Church played a central role in making Hitler the dictator of Germany. They also made a tradition out of going out of their way to wish a happy birthday to Hitler every year.

OK. But where are points 2) and 3) etc.? Or may we assume 1) is the only claim made? Is it invalid asking about clarification?

Ducky likes maskerating his assertions by asking questions like

- what about establishing that the Church was happy to be used, and aided?
- If there were so many problems between the Catholic Church and the Nazis, why would Pope John Paul II have to apologize for anything?

That's a bad style of disputing because it's slippery, I think. I would like to know what somebody's claim is. Then it can be discussed. I don't react on those questions normally because if I argue convincingly against what I think somebody might have intended to say, the answer might be "Where did I ever say something like this?".

No, mate, no such excuses with me! Tell me clearly what you claim, then we can discuss.

Herz

 

[kmortis]

I don't deny this. Just that I don't see it.
My response, that you cited above, was an answer to his post #188, where Ducky said:

Sorry, but what's that, joobz? Where is which claim formulated?

In post #205 we read:


OK. But where are points 2) and 3) etc.? Or may we assume 1) is the only claim made? Is it invalid asking about clarification?

Ducky likes maskerating his assertions by asking questions like

That's a bad style of disputing because it's slippery, I think. I would like to know what somebody's claim is. Then it can be discussed.

Herz

Ok, unsupported opinion is your path. Got it.

 

[joobz]

I don't deny this. Just that I don't see it.
My response, that you cited above, was an answer to his post #188, where Ducky said:

Sorry, but what's that, joobz? Where is which claim formulated?

In post #205 we read:


OK. But where are points 2) and 3) etc.? Or may we assume 1) is the only claim made? Is it invalid asking about clarification?

Ducky likes maskerating his assertions by asking questions like

That's a bad style of disputing because it's slippery, I think. I would like to know what somebody's claim is. Then it can be discussed.

Herz

I'm not trying to speak on Ducky's behave. I'm trying to find sources for your statements calling his claims bull. that's all.
how about we start with
1.) You stated there was no such cardinal as cardinal Bertram of Berlin.
but according to
http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios-b.htm
there was such a cardinal. I'm just not certain he was germany's.

2.) You state that nazi germany wasn't christian. So what religion was it?
Were they atheist like people seem to claim. This would be strange with all of the references to god.

 

[Herzblut]

He's asking for counter references. Why do you find his points "void"?

I said I found his references void. I explained my criticism.

Take for instance the reference saying

The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis

and my response to it. Is there anything unclear? The text of the Concordat can be found tracing his references. Check it! Sorry, where's the point?

What backin evidence do you put forth to support your position, or is it just your opinion?

I'll present my position and back it, OK?

Herz

 

[Herzblut]

I'm trying to find sources for your statements calling his claims bull. that's all.
how about we start with
1.) You stated there was no such cardinal as cardinal Bertram of Berlin.
but according to
http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios-b.htm
there was such a cardinal. I'm just not certain he was germany's.

OK.

Bertram has been Cardinal of Breslau, not Berlin. Breslau now belongs to Poland! Sources with such grave factual errors are not reliable. You disagree?

2.) You state that nazi germany wasn't christian. So what religion was it?

Good question. I think the question needs to be put more precisely. Do you mean

- is there a state religion or - contrariwise - even a seperation of state and church?

- what is the attitude of the state towards different religions/churches? Does the regime try to establish a political religion? (Check Wiki!)

- is the totalitarian Nazi ideology pro-religious? If so, pro to which kind of religion?

- does the Nazi ideology have religious roots? Which?

- what are the religious beliefs of top Nazis?

- what is the religious belief of the German population? How has it changed under the Nazi regime?

So, there's many aspects to it. We can go thru them all, if you want. The topic is highly complex.

But, first of all, how would you define a "christian country"? Would you include the U.S.?

Were they atheist like people seem to claim. This would be strange with all of the references to god.

They? Which God? Definetely not the christian one, that's for sure.

Since I already mentioned Wiki, here are some fairly good articles. They demonstrate that the discussion point cannot be taken care of by some simplistic arguments presented here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_mysticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion#Prayer_to_Hitler

Nice prayer, like it? Now: is this a christian prayer? Who is the christian Messiah again? Jesus or the Führer?

Führer, mein Führer, von Gott mir gegeben,
beschütz und erhalte noch lange mein Leben
Du hast Deutschland errettet aus tiefster Not,
Dir verdank ich mein tägliches Brot
Führer, mein Führer, mein Glaube, mein Licht
Führer mein Führer, verlasse mich nicht
​

Herz

 

[joobz]

OK.

Bertram has been Cardinal of Breslau, not Berlin. Breslau now belongs to Poland! Sources with such grave factual errors are not reliable. You disagree?

Not at all. if the source is so flawed, then it is not reliable and would not use it.

Good question. I think the question needs to be put more precisely. Do you mean

- is there a state religion or - contrariwise - even a seperation of state and church?

- what is the attitude of the state towards different religions/churches? Does the regime try to establish a political religion? (Check Wiki!)

- is the totalitarian Nazi ideology pro-religious? If so, pro to which kind of religion?

- does the Nazi ideology have religious roots? Which?

- what are the religious beliefs of top Nazis?

- what is the religious belief of the German population? How has it changed under the Nazi regime?

So, there's many aspects to it. We can go thru them all, if you want. The topic is highly complex.

But, first of all, how would you define a "christian country"? Would you include the U.S.?

Actually, all questions you raise are quite interesting. I'll check the wiki ref you mention.

to answer the questions you ask.
1.) the US is secular (as defined by the constitution), but it's people are a majority christian. I'd also state that the current president's administration is faithbased.

They? Which God? Definetely not the catholic one, that's for sure.

Herz.

wouldn't claim catholic, but I'd have to guess christian. In any case, it certainly is the atheist god.

ETA: thanks for the links. I'll check through them.

 

[Herzblut]

Not at all. if the source is so flawed, then it is not reliable and would not use it.

That was what I actually wanted to point out. OK, I admit I should have given a reliable evidence, like the one you have presented, to avoid unnecessary confusion.

to answer the questions you ask.
1.) the US is secular (as defined by the constitution), but it's people are a majority christian. I'd also state that the current president's administration is faithbased.

OK, so we might apply similar criteria to Nazi Germany, if you like. You'll see how difficult and confusing this turns out to be (see the Wiki articles!).

wouldn't claim catholic, but I'd have to guess christian.

OK, I changed my post from "catholic" to "christian". Very well knowing that I am leaving rocksolid ground here and entering slippery ice. But I try to stand to my judgment in later discussions. Maybe I'll be proved wrong. But it's more fun.

My first hammering argument is the insane prayer presented above. Christian? No way!

In any case, it certainly is the atheist god.

Haha! Very good!

Herz

 

[Ducky]

That was what I actually wanted to point out. OK, I admit I should have given a reliable evidence, like the one you have presented, to avoid unnecessary confusion.


OK, so we might apply similar criteria to Nazi Germany, if you like. You'll see how difficult and confusing this turns out to be (see the Wiki articles!).


OK, I changed my post from "catholic" to "christian". Very well knowing that I am leaving rocksolid ground here and entering slippery ice. But I try to stand to my judgment in later discussions. Maybe I'll be proved wrong. But it's more fun.

My first hammering argument is the insane prayer presented above. Christian? No way!


Haha! Very good!

Herz

I appreciate the links, and you're right that source is terrible. It is retracted.

I need to finish reading through what you've given so far before commenting further.

 

[joobz]

That was what I actually wanted to point out. OK, I admit I should have given a reliable evidence, like the one you have presented, to avoid unnecessary confusion.

No problem. Actually your wiki links establish your point quite nicely. Thank you.

OK, so we might apply similar criteria to Nazi Germany, if you like. You'll see how difficult and confusing this turns out to be (see the Wiki articles!).

OK, I changed my post from "catholic" to "christian". Very well knowing that I am leaving rocksolid ground here and entering slippery ice. But I try to stand to my judgment in later discussions. Maybe I'll be proved wrong. But it's more fun.

My first hammering argument is the insane prayer presented above. Christian? No way!

definitely not a straight forward question/answer. But His political religion/occultishness seemed to be something that developed over time. He used his christianity to gain confidence and power. and(if I am permitted to speculate widely) switched/transfered this religious views unto himself. And couldn't it be claimed that theistic beliefs allowed for that manipulation to occur in the first place.

Anyway, your information demonstrates that the Nazi regime wasn't an atheist society, but a political religion. And as your wiki source stated, so was the stalinism. So this contradicts the claim that atheist states are responsible for the greatest atrocities of the 20th century. Rather, Political religions are responsible for the greatest atrocities.

Haha! Very good!

Herz

actually i meant, "In any case, it certainly isn't the atheist god", but I guess my point reads the same, either way.

 

[Herzblut]

Anyway, your information demonstrates that the Nazi regime wasn't an atheist society, but a political religion. And as your wiki source stated, so was the stalinism. So this contradicts the claim that atheist states are responsible for the greatest atrocities of the 20th century. Rather, Political religions are responsible for the greatest atrocities.

Actually, I perfectly agree, joobz! I find this concept of "political religion" very adequate.

But let me save my claim: I said the atrocities were committed under the banner of an atheist worldview (M-L), or something like that. And I did not assign root cause to atheism! That would heftily contradict my personal beliefs.

Also, I'm cautious by nature.

Herz

 

[DOC]

The quote said it "was" to be a tradition, not that it "became" a tradition. Do you have any evidence it was continued. And even if it was continued have you forgotten that the Vatican was surrounded by Nazi troops in Italy.

A simple (Render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesars) birthday card could have helped keep the Nazis from overrunning the defenseless Vatican. Be wise as a serpent and harmless as dove, the Bible says.

Bottom line the popes funerals are covered non stop for days on television and Hitlers teeth are probably in a vault somewhere in Russia and who knows where his burnt ashes are. I think the Catholics won that one over the Nazis.

DOC, the Catholics didn't win the second world war. The allies did.

The rest is postulations without any evidence.

I never said the Catholics won the "war". I was just making a general statement that they (God's ambassadors) won because their still around and popes funerals are big multi day TV events. And who knows where that psychopathic murderer Hitler's remains are. I think his teeth are in a vault somewhere in Russia.

And are you saying there is no evidence that the Vatican was surrounded by Nazi troops in Rome. What do you think would have happened if the pope started to spout off about the Nazis while being surrounded.


And here are some people who thought the pope did a pretty good job under very dangerous circumstances during the war:


"I should like you to take this occasion to express to His Holiness my deeply-felt appreciation of the frequent action which the Holy See has taken on its own initiative in its generous and merciful efforts to render assistance to the victims of racial and religious persecution."

Moshe Sharett, First Israeli Foreign Minister (April 1945)

________________

"When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the

pope was raised for its victims."


Golda Meir, Israeli Foreign Minister (October 9, 1958)

________________


". . . I told him [the Pope] that my first duty was to thank him , and through him, the

Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public, for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews, to save children, and Jews in general."

Franklin D. Roosevelt to Myron C. Taylor (August 3, 1944)

http://www.piusxii.info/pius2.htm

 

[strathmeyer]

Maybe we should of hoped that the Nazis would have figured out that killing Jews and attacking other countries was wrong on their own.

Then why didn't we slaughter them all?

 

[joobz]

Then why didn't we slaughter them all?

That was the christian solution in south america.

 

[Tanstaafl]

So, can we starve the troll now?

Unfortunately, no. This troll lives on stupidity. The supply is infinite.