• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Was Christopher Columbus obsessed with the Bible

I'm really glad some of you are saying Hitler was a Christian. I really do hope you'll keep it up because it says a lot about you and your side.

Namely, that we know something about history and that (unlike some people) we choose to accept it as-is rather than mutilate it for the benefit of our preconceived notions.

Now I realize Columbus was no angel but at least he added tremendously to the progress of humanity, whereas Hitler came very close to sending humanity into a dark abyss.
Because being a brutal murderer and tyrant is A-ok when you've got the Official DOC Seal of Cognitive Dissonance!

You also have to wonder why Roosevelt and Churchill sang "Onward Christian soldiers" with naval officers on a ship at the very beginning of the war if they were fighting a fellow Christian.
Because most of their soldiers were Christians, and they were trying to urge them on...? No, silly me, that's something a military leader might do... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
You also have to wonder why Roosevelt and Churchill sang "Onward Christian soldiers" with naval officers on a ship at the very beginning of the war if they were fighting a fellow Christian.

Because most of their soldiers were Christians, and they were trying to urge them on...? No, silly me, that's something a military leader might do... :rolleyes:
'Cause, ya know, that Christians would NEVER fight other Christians, right? I can see the battlefield at Waterloo now...

General #1 "Mon Emperor, we ha' jus found out that le Duc de Wellington is a Christian!"

Napoleon I:"MON DUEX! That will never do. We cannot fight another of out faith! What about that pesky German that follows him around like a lapdog?"

Gen#1:"Von Blucher? Luthern, sir."

Nap:"Is that not Christian as well?"

Gen#1:"Unfortunatly so, sir."

Nap: "then we must retire this day. Let's blame it on the weather, shall we?"

Gen: "Oui, monsieur."

Nap: "It's Moscow all over again. Who knew that so many leaders are Christian? That Tsar had me going there for a while."
 
I'm really glad some of you are saying Hitler was a Christian. I really do hope you'll keep it up because it says a lot about you and your side.
Hey, wait a second!
I thought that a person could state random facts about history without having some hidden agenda.
you know, i don't understand it, But by your strong response i have received from this comment must mean it is important.
 
Once again I really do hope you will continue with this Hitler was Christian theme. Because as I said it says a lot about you.

Here is your quote:


Quote:
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars." EndQuote


You will notice that the date is April 20,1939. WWII didn't officially start until about 4 months later. Hitler was so powerful and popular with the Germans at that point there was almost nothing the Church could do without being totally silenced. And as I said earlier the Church did put up objections to the Hitler Youth program and a priest was killed.

Once the war started there was absolutely nothing they could do against Hitler that would have made any difference.

And I believe Pope John Paul II did apologize to Jews for not doing enough. Catholics tend to learn from their mistakes which is why they have been around for 2000 years and the Roman and Nazi empires are long gone and on the ash heap of history.

Fail for two reasons. One, you missed that this became a tradition. This wasn't just one year before the war it happened. Things that are repeatedly a tradition are done so out of goodwill. Even if you wanted to run with your popularity theory, you still didn't read my link, or you would have noticed this:

The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

The full text of the concordat appears on the Concordat Watch website. (click here to see the text).

So let's talk about what the Church knew and would support.

At the very end, just before the notes, this translation of the concordat includes the Secret Supplement. Naturally, this is omitted on Catholic sites. because it shows that by 1933 the Vatican knew that Hitler was going to re-arm in defiance of the Treaty of Versailles, and wanted to help him keep it secret. (In fact, the Secret Supplement of the Austrian concordat indicates that already by 1931 the Vatican was planning for this eventuality. Perhaps even hoping for this eventuality, since Pius IX “supported any policy or any man who would oppose and fight Soviet Russia”.[3]

[3] Avro Manhattan, “Chapter 10: Germany, the Vatican and Hitler”, The Vatican in World Politics, London, 1949.

The church legitimized him. He was able to gain power because of that. Pius IX suppoerted anyone who opposed Soviet Russia, INCLUDING HITLER. The church was well aware of Hitler's intent to arm well before 1939 when they began a tradition of officially wishing him a happy birthday with all their blessings and prayers each year.

If there were so many problems between the Catholic Church and the Nazis, why would Pope John Paul II have to apologize for anything? Let's sum up:

1) The pope and the Church played a central role in making Hitler the dictator of Germany. They also made a tradition out of going out of their way to wish a happy birthday to Hitler every year.

Your assertion Hitler was not a christian is not supported by his address to the Reichstag before the vote on his Enabling Act, which would essentially give Hitler the ability to create law without parliament's approval:

"While the Government is determined to carry through the political and moral purging of our public life, it is creating and insuring prerequisites for a truly religious life. The Government sees in both [Catholic and Protestant] Christian confessions the most important factors for the maintenance of our folkdom. It will respect agreements concluded between them and the States. However, it respects that its work will meet with a similar appreciation. The Government will treat all other denominations with equal objective justice. It can never condone, though, that belonging to a certain denomination or to a certain race might be regarded as a license to commit or tolerate crimes. The Government will devote its care to the sincere living together of Church and State."

Source:

[Hitler's Speech at second meeting of the
Reichstag of 1933, on
23 March 1933, asking for the adoption of the
Enabling Act.]

Now that establishes that Hitler was happy to use the Church to his means, what about establishing that the Church was happy to be used, and aided? How about this:

According to National Catholic Reporter correspondent John Allen, a liberal Catholic and student of Vatican history (he has written a biography of Joseph Ratzinger):

[Excerpt from John Allen's Telegraph article starts here]

Kaas acted in co-ordination with the German bishops. Four days later, on March 28, the German bishops rescinded their ban on Nazi party membership. On April 1, Cardinal Adolf Bertram of Breslau addressed German Catholics in a letter, warning them "to reject as a matter of principle all illegal or subversive activities". To most Catholics, it looked as if the church wanted a modus vivendi with Hitler.

The same impression was created a few weeks later when Hitler held a plebiscite to endorse his decision to pull Germany out of the League of Nations, which received the endorsement of the Catholic press and of several Catholic bishops. When Hitler and the Church came to terms for a concordat, it cemented the impression that Hitler was a man the Church "could do business with".

[Excerpt from John Allen's Telegraph article ends here]

Three and a half months later, on 6 July 1933, the Catholic Church's Center Party, Zentrum, dissolved itself. Two weeks after that, the Vatican and the Nazi government signed the Concordat, confirming the alliance between the Catholic Church and the Nazi state. Article 16 of the Concordat, published below, required that Catholic bishops swear to honor the Nazi government, to make their subordinates honor it, and to shun acts that would endanger it. (Notice that the Church was not promising to avoid just illegal acts, but any acts that might endanger the Nazi state, even if such acts were not yet outlawed.)

Source. John Allen's referenced article from that source.

Read carefully, DOC. You've just been pwned.
 
Last edited:
Read carefully, DOC. You've just been pwned.

Unfortunatly, pwnage only occurs if the person being pwned is an honest contributor. we have four well-posted threads that show that DOC is NOT an honest contributor.


Again I say...

Starve The Troll!
 
Unfortunatly, pwnage only occurs if the person being pwned is an honest contributor. we have four well-posted threads that show that DOC is NOT an honest contributor.


Again I say...

Starve The Troll!

If it didn't work for DJJ, it won't work here.

Randfan makes some good points about continuing the debate if not here, then in another of the related threads.
 
If it didn't work for DJJ, it won't work here.

Randfan makes some good points about continuing the debate if not here, then in another of the related threads.

I know, I know. There's a little deamon in each of us that makes it nigh impossible to pass up answering outrageous claims. I've named mine "Claus".
 
Unfortunatly, pwnage only occurs if the person being pwned is an honest contributor. we have four well-posted threads that show that DOC is NOT an honest contributor.


Again I say...

Starve The Troll!
Absolutely NOT! :mad:

Without people such as Doc, how would I have learned such excellent stuff as what Ducky submitted? Let us consider trolls as teaching aids and regard them in that sense. It is not the aid that get's taught.

A forum without trolls is a boring forum.
 
Absolutely NOT! :mad:

Without people such as Doc, how would I have learned such excellent stuff as what Ducky submitted? Let us consider trolls as teaching aids and regard them in that sense. It is not the aid that get's taught.

A forum without trolls is a boring forum.

Ok...ok, jeezs, feed the freaking troll all ya want. Just when it's beating up on unwary travelers demanding Loose Change so it can buy the latest Dr. Kennedy book, don't go blaming me. I tried to nip it in the bud.
 
Ok...ok, jeezs, feed the freaking troll all ya want. Just when it's beating up on unwary travelers demanding Loose Change so it can buy the latest Dr. Kennedy book, don't go blaming me. I tried to nip it in the bud.
Trolls would have pretty slim pickings, begging on this street corner. They'd get about as many donations as the Scientology booth at the Southern Baptist conventioin.
 
I'm really glad some of you are saying Hitler was a Christian. I really do hope you'll keep it up because it says a lot about you and your side.
Yes, we do have a habit of telling the truth, don't we?

You also have to wonder why Roosevelt and Churchill sang "Onward Christian soldiers" with naval officers on a ship at the very beginning of the war if they were fighting a fellow Christian.
That may actually be the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

---

God heard the embattled nations sing and shout
'Gott strafe England!' and 'God save the King!'
God this, God that, and God the other thing —
'Good God!' said God, 'I've got my work cut out!'"


(John Collins Squire)
 
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Bull. Orsenigo was the Nuncio for Germany and, in this role, participated in official state reception ceremonies. Like the one for Hitler's 50th birthday.

The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition.
Megabull. Pacelli was not the organizer of state receptions for the German Reich. Totally absurd.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer
Bull. There was no such Cardinal of Berlin.

Your source is a piece of junk. You might want to invest some minimal time studying fundamentals of 20th century history to enable yourself recognizing that on your own.

Herzblut
 
One, you missed that this became a tradition.
State receptions have quite a long tradition in Germany, you know.

Things that are repeatedly a tradition are done so out of goodwill.
There was never any goodwill of the Vatican to the Nazis.

The Concordat between the Vatican and the Nazis
Crap. The Concordat was between Holy Sea and Deutsches Reich. This contract is still valid today. You want to imply Germany is still a Nazi regime?

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signs the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933. Nazi Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen sits at the left, Pacelli in the middle, and the Rudolf Buttmann sits at the right.
Wrong. Franz von Papen was no Nazi. Please justify the attribute "Nazi" Germany.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.
Complete BS.

At the very end, just before the notes, this translation of the concordat includes the Secret Supplement. Naturally, this is omitted on Catholic sites. because it shows that by 1933 the Vatican knew that Hitler was going to re-arm
No, they didn't. Oh - when did "the world" know it, btw? Did Hitler waist much time?

If there were so many problems between the Catholic Church and the Nazis, why would Pope John Paul II have to apologize for anything?
Please formulate your assertion here. Provide evidence.

1) The pope and the Church played a central role in making Hitler the dictator of Germany.
Nope.

Now that establishes that Hitler was happy to use the Church to his means, what about establishing that the Church was happy to be used, and aided?
Insane. Millions of Catholics and Protestants died during the Nazi regime. Hitler was a grim enemy of all established churches. Your speculations are just moronic.

Herzblut
 
Last edited:
Some sources would help me rescind my position, herz, despite your caustic style.

How about you repost and we teach DOC a lesson in admitting a poor source doesn't support a position?
 
Much ado about a pre-war bithday card and an alleged tradition

Quote Ducky brought in

Quote:
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
EndQuote

Doc said:
You will notice that the date is April 20,1939. WWII didn't officially start until about 4 months later. Hitler was so powerful and popular with the Germans at that point there was almost nothing the Church could do without being totally silenced. And as I said earlier the Church did put up objections to the Hitler Youth program and a priest was killed.

Once the war started there was absolutely nothing they could do against Hitler that would have made any difference.

And I believe Pope John Paul II did apologize to Jews for not doing enough. Catholics tend to learn from their mistakes which is why they have been around for 2000 years and the Roman and Nazi empires are long gone and on the ash heap of history.

Response from Ducky

Ducky said:
Fail for two reasons. One, you missed that this became a tradition.


The quote said it "was" to be a tradition, not that it "became" a tradition. Do you have any evidence it was continued. And even if it was continued have you forgotten that the Vatican was surrounded by Nazi troops in Italy.

A simple (Render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesars) birthday card could have helped keep the Nazis from overrunning the defenseless Vatican. Be wise as a serpent and harmless as dove, the Bible says.

Bottom line the popes funerals are covered non stop for days on television and Hitlers teeth are probably in a vault somewhere in Russia and who knows where his burnt ashes are. I think the Catholics won that one over the Nazis.


I'll get to the other reason when I get a chance.
 
Quote Ducky brought in

Quote:
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
EndQuote



Response from Ducky




The quote said it "was" to be a tradition, not that it "became" a tradition. Do you have any evidence it was continued. And even if it was continued have you forgotten that the Vatican was surrounded by Nazi troops in Italy.

A simple (Render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesars) birthday card could have helped keep the Nazis from overrunning the defenseless Vatican. Be wise as a serpent and harmless as dove, the Bible says.

Bottom line the popes funerals are covered non stop for days on television and Hitlers teeth are probably in a vault somewhere in Russia and who knows where his burnt ashes are. I think the Catholics won that one over the Nazis.


I'll get to the other reason when I get a chance.


DOC, the Catholics didn't win the second world war. The allies did.

The rest is postulations without any evidence.
 
DOC, the Catholics didn't win the second world war. The allies did.

The rest is postulations without any evidence.
The allies, which included that great secular nation, the united states!
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom