ZEITGEIST, The Movie

[boloboffin]

What you said right there is the reason this country is on its way out.

How asinine of you. My point is this: arguing that paying income tax is illegal based on what the founding fathers said is what doesn't matter anymore. The Constitution has been changed.

If you want to use any arguments they made against income tax, go ahead. But fill out your 1040 while you do. Quoting Thomas Jefferson to the IRS agent won't get you out of a penny of unpaid income tax.

 

[Hokulele]

How asinine of you. My point is this: arguing that paying income tax is illegal based on what the founding fathers said is what doesn't matter anymore. The Constitution has been changed.

If you want to use any arguments they made against income tax, go ahead. But fill out your 1040 while you do. Quoting Thomas Jefferson to the IRS agent won't get you out of a penny of unpaid income tax.

And it is also a bit disingenuous. There were many things supported by the founding fathers that no longer carry any weight in society. Slavery, refusal to allow women to vote or own property, and so on. Times do change, and so do the requirements of both the government, and the people governed. I wonder what the founding fathers would have thought of the size and diversity of the United States as they are today.

 

[warlexz53]

How asinine of you. My point is this: arguing that paying income tax is illegal based on what the founding fathers said is what doesn't matter anymore. The Constitution has been changed.

If you want to use any arguments they made against income tax, go ahead. But fill out your 1040 while you do. Quoting Thomas Jefferson to the IRS agent won't get you out of a penny of unpaid income tax.

The argument was never about income tax being legal or not. I know it is legal. Stop changing things here. The argument at hand here is wether or we should do away with it. And dont lecture me about paying my taxes. Im well aware of the law and what my rights are.

 

[warlexz53]

And it is also a bit disingenuous. There were many things supported by the founding fathers that no longer carry any weight in society. Slavery, refusal to allow women to vote or own property, and so on. Times do change, and so do the requirements of both the government, and the people governed. I wonder what the founding fathers would have thought of the size and diversity of the United States as they are today.

Yes, but many things still are. When it comes down to how a man should be free I think the founding fathers were right on the money.

 

[boloboffin]

The argument was never about income tax being legal or not. I know it is legal. Stop changing things here. The argument at hand here is wether or we should do away with it. And dont lecture me about paying my taxes. Im well aware of the law and what my rights are.

Obviously, you don't want an adult conversation. So go ahead, pick out all the slights you can find or manufacture, and wring your poor pitiful hands at our calumny. Maybe you and others can start a wooful chorus of angst.

 

[Hokulele]

Yes, but many things still are. When it comes down to how a man should be free I think the founding fathers were right on the money.

In that case, what criteria do you use to determine which principles can be discarded and which should be kept? I apologize if this sounds offensive, it was meant to be a serious question.

 

[Arus808]

Well, the answer there is pretty simple, it seems to me: don't put yourself into debt if you can possibly avoid it.

Much of the debt people have is entirely of their own choice.

Look at credit cards - how many folks pay interest on their balances because they don't pay them off? That's debt which is entirely voluntary. I've had credit cards for twenty years now and I have yet to pay a penny of interest on them because I always pay off my balance in full at the end of the month. If I can't afford to pay that bill at the end of the month, then I know I can't afford to purchase the item, whether it be by credit card or any other way.

You know what though, in order to GET anything (rental car, hotel room, etc) you need a freaking credit card.

It took me 12 years to finally pay off the 5 i had, and I only have one (with a very low credit line) just because companies need you to have a credit card otherwise they dont do business with you.

I could be standing at the hotel desk with $1000 in my hand for a room that is had for $120 a night for 3 nights, and they still want a credit card from you for any "additional charges" you may add to the hotel bill

And rental cars...eghad. without one, they treat you like the plague.

the businesses have to be blamed as well, that require such leashes in order to serve you.

 

[warlexz53]

In that case, what criteria do you use to determine which principles can be discarded and which should be kept? I apologize if this sounds offensive, it was meant to be a serious question.

That is a very complex question for me, because it ties into my personal beliefs both spiritual and secular. I believe God gave us free agency and independence. Just like the Bill of Rights tells us. Just like our first few ammendments protect these very basic human rights. As far as a criteria for judging what should be kept and what shouldnt I will say this...the truths given to us by our creator, the principles we know to be true of mankind like the golden rule, etc. should be the basis for determining what a mans rights are. Slavery obviously doesnt stand this test, opressing women does not stand this test. Being taxed to death does not stand this test.

 

[Hokulele]

That is a very complex question for me, because it ties into my personal beliefs both spiritual and secular. I believe God gave us free agency and independence. Just like the Bill of Rights tells us. Just like our first few ammendments protect these very basic human rights. As far as a criteria for judging what should be kept and what shouldnt I will say this...the truths given to us by our creator, the principles we know to be true of mankind like the golden rule, etc. should be the basis for determining what a mans rights are. Slavery obviously doesnt stand this test, opressing women does not stand this test. Being taxed to death does not stand this test.

So if the first few amendments do pass the test, why don't future amendments? After all, not all early amendments were about granting freedoms, many were restrictive depending on your point of view. Freeing the slaves (13th amendment) may have been liberating for the slaves, but restrictive for the industries relying on slave labor. In addition, both the Old Testament and New Testament support the institution of slavery, so technically, the 13th amendment contradicts gospel as written.

Sorry to drift off into Religion & Philosophy topics, but that is really where I make the bulk of my posts, and you just happened to post some opinions that coincide with my interests. In the spirit of avoiding a derail here, if you are interested, we can pursue this there.

 

[Corsair 115]

You know what though, in order to GET anything (rental car, hotel room, etc) you need a freaking credit card.

True. And it's why I got my first credit card. It also served as a much more convenient way to make large purchases (going to a bank and withdrawing a bunch of cash is not without its issues).

But then, from the start I was determined to not pay anything extra. Heck, I use their card to my advantage: I know when the billing period rolls over, so I'll put a purchase on the card right after the roll over date, so I effectively get an extra month before I have to pay and I can keep my money in my bank account until then earning a bit of extra interest.

I'll probably never get a credit card which has a fee either. There's no way I'm paying them some money each year just to have their credit card - I'll stick to the no-fee ones, thanks.

I'm downright stingy.

 

[warlexz53]

So if the first few amendments do pass the test, why don't future amendments? After all, not all early amendments were about granting freedoms, many were restrictive depending on your point of view. Freeing the slaves (13th amendment) may have been liberating for the slaves, but restrictive for the industries relying on slave labor. In addition, both the Old Testament and New Testament support the institution of slavery, so technically, the 13th amendment contradicts gospel as written.

Sorry to drift off into Religion & Philosophy topics, but that is really where I make the bulk of my posts, and you just happened to post some opinions that coincide with my interests. In the spirit of avoiding a derail here, if you are interested, we can pursue this there.

I'd be happy to, just post a link

 

[Hokulele]

I'd be happy to, just post a link

Cool. Here is a link for a new thread I started. Please be aware that there are several people in that sub-forum who can be a little harsh on topics of faith. If you ignore their posts, there are several posters who have interesting perspectives on topics like this, from both sides of the religious fence.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2889352#post2889352

 

[JimBenArm]

Well there are plenty of ways to pay off the debt. I'm not an expert, but there are some obvious things we can do. One, we need to stop borrowing so much. This war in the middle east is just stupidly expensive, and that is just one example of how we over extend ourselves. Two, think of all the money you would have if you didnt have to pay income tax...we're talking about trillions of dollars here collectively. If that money went into the market it would boost this economy like nothing else. Taxes on profits from corparations could easily start to make a dent in the debt if we wanted it to. But again, we have to stop borrowing so much, which means smaller government. People need to take more personal responsibilty and not rely on the government so much, this is another huge part of the problem. We are all soverign people. God gave us independence, big government and big brother stuff goes against that.

So, you think that completely eliminating income tax would do all this? Do you have any actual proof it would, or is this what you hope would happen? Sounds nice, but I want solid proof of this. As in real-world numbers, not pie-in-the-sky platitudes from people with a political agenda. You want this all to be true, obviously. Now, provide some real proof that it would work like this. Because, well, I'm quite skeptical it would.

 

[8den]

So, you think that completely eliminating income tax would do all this? Do you have any actual proof it would, or is this what you hope would happen? Sounds nice, but I want solid proof of this. As in real-world numbers, not pie-in-the-sky platitudes from people with a political agenda. You want this all to be true, obviously. Now, provide some real proof that it would work like this. Because, well, I'm quite skeptical it would.

No no it's true if I had all the money I gave in income tax back, I'd totally spend more. Probably wouldn't spent it on infrastructure, hospital beds, education and civil service salaries though mind you.

 

[Sabrina]

I know virtually nothing concrete about the income tax stuff, so I'll stay away from that, but I want to point something out here. When we founded this country, we had THIRTEEN STATES, not fifty. OF COURSE the government was smaller then! But as the country grew, so did the need for a bigger government to handle the size of the country. Comparatively speaking, I'd guess the size of the government then for thirteen states is comparable to the size of the government NOW for fifty states. How will making the government smaller solve anything? By giving more power to the state governments? Then you're essentially creating fifty small countries who can do as they please, and that's not what the founding fathers wanted.

Like I said, I know very little about the income tax BS; I tried to watch Zeitgeist and was so bored and frustrated I quit after the 9/11 BS. It made absolutely no sense. I can't imagine the third portion being any better. All I know is, I have virtually no debt and that's through my own hard work and a lot of luck (only one student loan because I was lucky enough to win a full scholarship through the military, so I have nothing left from that; I've paid off my car completely, and I don't currently own a house; it's easier for a single woman to rent an apartment or condo). I pay off my credit cards (and I have two if you don't count my ATM/debit card that you can enter as a credit card when paying for things to avoid any fees from using the debit option instead) every month. Most Americans are in debt through their own actions and have no one to blame but themselves, not some nebulous evil cabal of bankers; no one held a gun to their heads and forced them to borrow money. Acting like they did is just silly.

 

[Alt+F4]

When it comes down to how a man should be free I think the founding fathers were right on the money.

Too bad they didn't extend that belief to the slaves they owned (yes, I know sans the Adams)

 

[Viper Daimao]

The argument was never about income tax being legal or not. I know it is legal. Stop changing things here. The argument at hand here is wether or we should do away with it. And dont lecture me about paying my taxes. Im well aware of the law and what my rights are.

Well you'll have to forgive us, the topic of this thread was a movie that said it was illegal and you were the one, maybe not necessarily defending the movie, but wanting to ask questions about it. But if you do agree that income tax is legal, then really you're saying you do agree with everyone here that the zeitgeist movie is "bunk" so to speak, and we're getting off topic into whether having an income tax is "moral" and a good idea.

 

[CJOKUSAP]

Well you'll have to forgive us, the topic of this thread was a movie that said it was illegal and you were the one, maybe not necessarily defending the movie, but wanting to ask questions about it. But if you do agree that income tax is legal, then really you're saying you do agree with everyone here that the zeitgeist movie is "bunk" so to speak, and we're getting off topic into whether having an income tax is "moral" and a good idea.

<><><>
Hi there, guy's and gal's, as this is my first post I'll try my best to keep it civil. Looking at the sort of reasoning employed in the underlined section above though, I've a feeling that is going to be slightly difficult. From my recent experience perusing these kind of forum's, I am a bit bemused at the amount of zeal displayed by the majority of the "Anti-CT Theorist" brigade in denouncing every 'twoofer'(what a ridiculous word!) that comes along. If you are all so confident in your beliefs that your government has your best interests at heart, and would never consider carrying out such an atrocious act against it's own people, why are a 'bunch of nut's' getting you all so upset? Reply in 100 word's or less!

 

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum CJOKUSAP....enjoy your stay.

TAM

 

[DavidJames]

<><><>
I am a bit bemused at the amount of zeal displayed by the majority of the "Anti-CT Theorist" brigade in denouncing every 'twoofer'(what a ridiculous word!) that comes along. If you are all so confident in your beliefs that your government has your best interests at heart, and would never consider carrying out such an atrocious act against it's own people, why are a 'bunch of nut's' getting you all so upset? Reply in 100 word's or less!

Welcome to the forum.

Do you know what bemuses me? It's strawman arguments.